PCL off the Runway in TVC--no injuries

[gromgutten]

Every time I log on to this board I am hoping to read a useful discussion on a particular subject, and every time I find 80% (I am being generous) what appers to be children ranting about something they most likely have no knowledge about. Why can't any thread stay on subject?
Speculating is one thing, but rushing to judgement before the pax are off the airplane, and judging the pilot group as a whole is not very mature. It does not matter which airline we are talking about, each company has their good bad and ugly (Ok, Gojet has the ugliest)
Winter ops in places like TVC, AZO and many others can be tricky business. If you have been there, I'm sure you'll agree....

Thats 3 cents, I think!

 

[Guam360]

Actually, I was wondering why Bombardier makes such rotten landing gear that it keeps failing. ASA had one fail in ATL a few years back. Who needs trailing-link gear anyway.

from a drunk Irishman, I am surprised, Of course a Shorts SD3-60 needs trailing link gear man...

 

[dooork]

Every time I log on to this board I am hoping to read a useful discussion on a particular subject, and every time I find 80% (I am being generous) what appers to be children ranting about something they most likely have no knowledge about. Why can't any thread stay on subject?
Speculating is one thing, but rushing to judgement before the pax are off the airplane, and judging the pilot group as a whole is not very mature. It does not matter which airline we are talking about, each company has their good bad and ugly (Ok, Gojet has the ugliest)
Winter ops in places like TVC, AZO and many others can be tricky business. If you have been there, I'm sure you'll agree....

Thats 3 cents, I think!

That is what you get when you allow anonymity and no accountability.

 

[captain dad]

I have personally seen Spinicle get lost, on wrong frequency, turn the wrong way, take off without clearence, and even run into sh!t on the ground. Once while tail to tail, one of those numb nuts (who will remain nameless to protect his family from embarassment) used so much power out of the chocks, that the jet blast bent my 30,000 lbs. gross wieght plane's rudder and ripped out cables. If you don't believe me talk to any of the tower controllers at MSP, MEM, or DTW.

It takes a massive cultural change to become safe and loose a reputation like this. They have had the same cowboy mentality as far back as I can remember (1988). I know there are some good safe pilots at oops-I-hit-what-inicle. I feel for you. There are only a few airlines I would class you with like Great (mistakes) Lakes, Cape (Scare) Air, and Big Sky.

Sorry to make a joke out of it. It is only funny until some unknowing pax get killed.

I am not just saying this because they slid off in TVC or because the slid off in MKE then taxied out of the mud and went to the gate anyway, or the ferry flight that crashed because the two idiots were screwing arround, or the saab that went into the ditch in MEM because somebody didn't seet the brake or chock it, or the numerous CRJs that have wing damage from being taxied into stuff, or the CRJ in MSP that tried to takeoff, first flight of the day, covered in ice without deicing, or ... well you get the idea.

 

[Lear70]

I have personally seen Spinicle get lost, on wrong frequency, turn the wrong way, take off without clearence, and even run into sh!t on the ground.

And this doesn't happen at other airlines? The majors? Ummm, yeah, it does.

2 nights ago in PHL during all the crap that hit, an AA 757 is in front of us CRAWLING along the taxiway like they always do. It's not, however, normal PHL ops, there's absolutely NO ONE in front of them for takeoff, which you could see from leaving Spot 9.

WE saw it and had both engine spooled and ready to go, but the tower controller keeps calling them for takeoff clearance and HELLOOOOO, no one's home. Still on ground. At the end of the runway. Numbnuts finally switches over and says "We're still getting our numbers punched in". WTF? You just took 10 minutes to taxi 5,000 feet and you don't have your numbers?

The guy is finally ready for takeoff and takes the active, but as he turns the corner asks tower, "Ummm, you want runway heading?" when the PHL7 departure tells you EXACTLY what heading they should have. Then the guy asks, "What's our departure frequency?" Which is also printed right on the fracking plate!

So, you don't know how to plan ahead, you don't know WHICH DIRECTION you're going, or WHO TO TALK TO??!!

Long story short, there's numbnuts at every airline. After flying at PCL for 5 years, I can say the vast majority of their pilots are professional aviators.

It takes a massive cultural change to become safe and loose a reputation like this. They have had the same cowboy mentality as far back as I can remember (1988). I know there are some good safe pilots at oops-I-hit-what-inicle. I feel for you. There are only a few airlines I would class you with like Great (mistakes) Lakes, Cape (Scare) Air, and Big Sky.

I wouldn't classify them that way anymore. After 3701 the "Cowboy" mentality has been severely curtailed. There will always be a few that "behave" when being checked, then go back to being an a*s but, again, EVERY airline has that. Yours, too, I'd bet.

Sorry to make a joke out of it. It is only funny until some unknowing pax get killed.

You going to say that about Comair, too?

Lots of accidents I can think of at both majors and regionals attributed to pilot stupidity. It's not fair to single PCL out when their safety record, when taken over the last 10 years, isn't much better or worse than anyone else's.

or the saab that went into the ditch in MEM because somebody didn't seet the brake or chock it,

That was maintenance. I have the picture if you'd like it, it's in that big culvert between the Maintenance hangar and the FBO (Wilson Air?)

or the numerous CRJs that have wing damage from being taxied into stuff,

Now you're just being dramatic. Last night I was in ATL trying to commute and watched a Freedom airplane taxi into the boarding ramp. Happens everywhere. No, I've never done it (yet... knock on wood).

(First and last time I try to take a Freedom jumpseat - that's a LONG story with an amusing ending, for another time, but I ended up finally getting fed up with the CA and going back over to the mainline DAL flight. )

or the CRJ in MSP that tried to takeoff, first flight of the day, covered in ice without deicing, or ... well you get the idea.

Or the USAirways 737 that slid off the end of the runway into the Potomac because the pilot neglected to properly use the engine anti-ice and waited WAY past his holdover time in heavy snow?

Again, the finger-pointing thing can be done at every airline. Why does everyone like to bash PCL so much?

I also find it amusing that this is done on a thread where the pilot's decisions probably were the smallest link in the accident chain,,, I know the dispatcher personally as well, and doubt he did anything wrong either. My money's on the TVC snow removal program (or lack thereof) and sh*tty runway condition reporting (having been up there repeatedly in the winter and experiencing it first-hand), combined with some fatigue and a little extra float.

Hope it doesn't happen to all you finger-pointers out there in the peanut gallery. Seriously.

 

[DoinTime]

or the numerous CRJs that have wing damage from being taxied into stuff,

Being marshaled by none other than Mesaba ground workers! Great job guys! If you had ever taxied an airplane that had sweptback wings you'd understand that your marshaler is in control of your destiny for the last 50 feet of the flight.

or the CRJ in MSP that tried to takeoff, first flight of the day, covered in ice without deicing,

I guess its ok for a Saab to takeoff covered in snow and ice? Because that's what happens all the time in MSP and DTW. Your not the only one with eyes you know.

It would be nice if you knew more than crew room gossip. There is some truth to your accusations but the details are mutilated and the big picture is butchered.

 

[captain dad]

Must have hit a nerve.

I forgot to mention the pilot's bad attitudes. They like to make excuses and blame everyone else for their stupid cowboy arrogance. The guy that dang neared ripped the tail off my plane with his jet blast was full of excuses to.

Look up the ntsb submissions and nasa reports over the last ten years one airline, aircraft type and set of locations stand out a lot more than most. You don't see to many airlines totally destroying numerous aircraft and killing people on a almost regular basis.

I almost forgot a bout Hibbing, MN in the jetstream. What was the excuse for that one.

As for flying a swept wing aircraft...I have three types in aircraft where the wingtips can not me seen from the cockpit. I've never come close to hitting anything. Blaming a marshaller, no matter who he works for, is weak at best.

I don't want to take a 1 in 4 chance (I'm being generous) that the PIC is a inexperienced, unskilled cowboy that could potentially kill me.

No matter what anyone says, you can't change anyones mind. Action talks and BS walks. Just do everyone a favor, do your best not to hit or brake anything.

No joke. You guys seriously scare me!

 

[Taildraggaah]

I won't call 5,379 feet short...

As you know depends on the aircraft. The CRJ is a Runway pig even on a dry runway...

"V-dub in da house Yah!"

 

[captain dad]

As you know depends on the aircraft. The CRJ is a Runway pig even on a dry runway...

"V-dub in da house Yah!"

No sh!t. That is my point. If it was tight to begin with for a crj, why would anyone consider landing especially if there is a poor/nil or even questionable braking action?

"I waana be a Cowboy, baby!" - Kid Rock

 

[Lear70]

No matter what anyone says, you can't change anyones mind.

Really? You're THAT closed off to ANYTHING anyone else has to say on the matter?

What will you say if the NTSB investigates and totally clears the crew? Will you apologize for your inaccurate statements?

I doubt it.

You must be an absolute JOY to train, since no matter what ANYONE says, your mind can't be changed...

p.s. didn't hit a nerve with me, I don't work there anymore. I just can't stand people slinging mud from behind the cover of anonymity. That's why I wish this forum required people's real names and jobs; would make it a LOT more cordial of an environment...

But then it would be the "other" message board which is actually a pretty cool place. Not nearly as entertaining, but a lot better crowd.