Paying for 1st officer training?!?

[Brad Eldredge]

Could anyone help a low-timer out? 700 hours and 150 ME. Trying to make myself as attractive as possible to the regionals. I'm thinking of enrolling in Ameriflight's 1st officer training. It sounds great - get 250 hours of turbine and trained in a 135 operation. I'm getting a lot of mixed responses from other pilots. Some think its really going to help me - others say its scabbing and that they would never hire me if I did it. Has anyone heard if the airlines like it or not?

 

[banned username 2]

Don't do it, big mistake....

No one is hiring right now anyhow, so all you are doing is wasting your money...

Plus that is basically Pay-For-Training and we ALL know how everyone feels about that...

Don't ruin your career before it even gets started... you will really regret it later....

 

[NYRANGERS]

Could anyone help a low-timer out? 700 hours and 150 ME. Trying to make myself as attractive as possible to the regionals. I'm thinking of enrolling in Ameriflight's 1st officer training. It sounds great - get 250 hours of turbine and trained in a 135 operation. I'm getting a lot of mixed responses from other pilots. Some think its really going to help me - others say its scabbing and that they would never hire me if I did it. Has anyone heard if the airlines like it or not?

First off I think the term SCAB is thrown around too much. The only SCABS I know of are the ones who cross the picket line. There is nothing more reprehensible in our industry.

With that said, I think your time is right about what most of the Pre 9/11 mins were for a lot of regionals. I don't know much about Ameriflight's program, but it might behove you to try to get just a little more total time somehow and start applying. I know that PSA is hiring both furloughed pilots and pilots with around your kind of time.

Will Ameriflight hire you after training? This is something you might want to think about.

Anyway, I don't think going to Ameriflight will hurt you in anyway.

Best of Luck

Go Rangers

 

[phutch]

More details needed...

Why don't you explain the program, what your duties will be and how much you are paying for this time. Are you referring to a program like Eagle Jet or is this directly from Ameriflight?

 

[The Penguin]

Like a previous post said: No one is hiring right now. The best thing you can do in your position is find a FBO that does 135 charter and flight instruct for them. Hopefully the position will lead into some 135 flying, preferably in a twin. If you absolutly don't want to flight instruct, I would look into Gulfstream down in Florida. You pay for BE1900 training, but you are, if I am not mistaken, guranteed a job at least for a certain amount of time after training. I didn't go there and don't know too much about it. Times are tough now, but it is NOT for me to tell you that there is not a single airline that will hire you. I just remember hearing stories from people that could not find jobs back in the mid-90's even with 2,000TT and it seems that we are at the bottom of this cycle. Flight instruct, tow banners, fly skydivers, but don't give up on being a pilot. Hope that helps.

 

[Cornelius]

Just say NO and be patient like everybody else in this industry.

 

[publisher]

First

First, let's get this out of the way.

People have been hired this year and are continuing to be hired. In big numbers like pre 911, no but people have been hired at most regionals along with Southwest, Airtran, and Alaska.

In todays envrionment, are you competitive, not real strong. Most of the people that get hired that are not in a program, have about 500 hours more than you and most of that is multi engine with some turbine.

In this area, getting an instructor position is not as easy as some seem to make it.

Look at the programs that are out there, evaluate where you will be at the end, what it cost, and go for it.

 

[Brad Eldredge]

Re: More details needed...

Why don't you explain the program, what your duties will be and how much you are paying for this time. Are you referring to a program like Eagle Jet or is this directly from Ameriflight?

Thank you everyone for all of your replies.

Yes, it is exactly like Eagle Jet, in fact, Eagle Jet is who I would go through. The program works like this: I pay $13,000 and they send me through Ameriflight's ground school. As I understand it, I would receive all the training a salaried new captain would. I would take a SIC checkride and then be assigned a line for 4-6 months as a FO (without pay) in a Beech 99 for 250 hours (I could also choose the 1900 or a metro for slightly more $). I would fly alternating legs logging approx. 125 PIC and 125 SIC. No guarantee on a job afterwards... they say the best FO's do get hired. Eagle Jet 'claims' to help get you interviews - could just be smoke.

Sounds like a lot of money (in fact, it is a lot of money). However, its only $52/hr. Buying twin time would be more than this. That's why this is so tempting. BUT...I don't want to do this if airlines are going to frown on this....man, I just want a job!!

P.S. Who is PSA?

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: Re: More details needed...

Sounds like a lot of money (in fact, it is a lot of money). However, its only $52/hr. Buying twin time would be more than this. That's why this is so tempting. BUT...I don't want to do this if airlines are going to frown on this....man, I just want a job!!

P.S. Who is PSA?

PSA is a wholly owned subsidiary of US Airways, they fly the Dornier 328.

I can understand that you want a job, I don't think that you have to go the route you are considering. But if you do I am sure it won't hurt you in the long run. I do think however, that you should try to exhaust all other possibilities before you go this way.

Best of Luck

NYRANGERS

 

[banned username 2]

Remember this....

Pay-For-Training (job) takes away a PAYING Job from some other pilot....

If there weren't people such as yourself who are willing to pay to fly for these companies, they would be forced to HIRE a pilot to fill the position....

Last time I checked I have never had a Doctor pay me to cure me, I have never had a Lawyer pay me to represent me, I have never had an accountant pay me to do my taxes....

Why should you pay a company to fill a seat that they NEED filled???

Remember pilots hire pilots.... Just like in the early 90's there are a lot of out of work pilots who could use a job.... with families to feed....

Just my $0.02 worth....

 

[NYRANGERS]

Remember this....

Pay-For-Training (job) takes away a PAYING Job from some other pilot....

Do you include SouthWest in your statement? Just curious......

 

[MetroSheriff]

Remember this....

Pay-For-Training (job) takes away a PAYING Job from some other pilot....

Do you include SouthWest in your statement? Just curious......

Uhhh, no. Haven't we been down this road before, and before, and before.

 

[banned username 2]

Pay-For-Training (job) takes away a PAYING Job from some other pilot....

Do you include SouthWest in your statement? Just curious...... [/B]

Nope... SWA requires a Type Rating as a Prerequisite before hiring you... SWA pays you during their training AND while you are flying for them....

If you noticed he said he pays this company $13,000 for training in the right seat of a Beech 99 (King Air) (I find it hard to believe the training costs anywhere near $13,000, its a King Air for God's sakes!) and THEN you fly for them 250 hours (UNpaid)....

At SWA you are hired and get paid during training (as well as training costs are paid by the company), you get paid while you are flying for them also.... Just like UAL used to require an FE Written, SWA requires a B737 Type... They don't make you buy the type from them and then make you fly for free for 250 hours....

Huge difference....

 

[NYRANGERS]

Just like UAL used to require an FE Written, SWA requires a B737 Type... They don't make you buy the type from them and then make you fly for free for 250 hours....

Huge difference....

I guess this topic has been discussed before. I realize there is a difference ( al be it subtle). But come on, you compare a $30 written to an $8000 type, please....

 

[banned username 2]

SWA pays for your training, SWA pays you a salary during the training, SWA pays you to fly for them and you have a job after 250 hours.

This Eagle Jet does NOT pay for your training (you do), does NOT pay you during training, does NOT pay you while flying for them and does NOT guarantee you a job after your 250 hours are up...

I would say this is more than just a "Subtle" difference....

By the way, the B737 type is a job qualification prerequisite, just like having an ATP with Multi-Engine is, or a 4 year degree is for a lot of other jobs...

Nobody is paying SWA to ride around in their right seat... SWA is paying a pilot to do that....

HUGE difference....

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: Re: More details needed...

If you take the tried and true route of instructing, banner towing, traffic watch, glider towing, and then some 135 positions no one will doubt your integrity.....ever. And you might even know a little bit about flying by the time you show up in an airliner cockpit.

Well said.....

 

[Sam Adams]

PFT

Do not by any means Pay for your training! There are many ways to get quaility flight time even during this post 9/11 downturn.You just have to be very motivated and get out there and sell yourself. 1000 doors will be slamed in your face but there is that one that will be open.And that is all it takes, save that cash and buy some real estate with it. What ever you do DON"T GIVE UP!!

 

[MetroSheriff]

At many of the companies I would want to work for, it says they require a four-year degree. Well gosh darn I must be one of those PFT jag-offs, since I've dropped near $15,000 for that requirement.

It's also a prerequisite to get a CFI certificate to flight instruct here. I guess the $20,000 I spent in this university flight program for all my ratings up to and including my CFI makes me a PFTer, again.

I agree that programs where you must pay to fly right seat are very detrimental to this profession. However, for companies that require you obtain some particular rating or type, I can't complain about that. Take a look at Climbto350.com. How many of those companies require a type in something and X amount of time to be considered? I see all the time "current and typed in CL-604" or something. Wow, lots of PFT corporate/charter companies out there.

Please, please spare us the rhetoric. We all know what's PFT and what isn't.

 

[publisher]

PFT

We have had this discussion before but as far as I can tell, only Gulfstream qualifies as a PFT situation. Airnet and these other programs are single pilot ops or are structured where they are not PFT/

 

[jobear]

Frontier Flying Service is offering a similar program. I don't agree with it but it does happen.
I don't think its that bad flying around the dogpatch flight instructing, not that I would wan't to do that again but it is a great learning oppurtunity.(sp)

Jobear

 

[banned username 2]

Re: PFT

We have had this discussion before but as far as I can tell, only Gulfstream qualifies as a PFT situation. Airnet and these other programs are single pilot ops or are structured where they are not PFT/

Well if these "other" operations are "Single-Pilot" ops, then how can you even legally log the SIC time? Either you are a required crew member or you are not... If you are required then it is PFT, if you are not required then you can't log it....

Sounds like a lose/lose situation either way....

Think about it....

 

[publisher]

Airnet

Falcon.

As example look at the Airnet program. The FAA recognizes that their SIC program is a required crewmember for logging purpose. You can search this board for a more detailed explanation a few months ago.

I reiterate, in the case of Gulfstream a pay for training situation exists that would require another pilot. While it may be misnomer that the pilot you would be paying is little different than the pilot paying, the fact is this is pay for training.

While no one seems to like it, the fact is that people come out of all these programs and move into the pilot ranks. People will keep doing it until it is shown that they do not advance as a result of it.

 

[JOPILOT]

TO BRAD:::

Yada, yada , yada...I suggest to wait and do not pay
for SIC time. Find some way to get cfi time, it will be like
flying for free, (small wages and no charge for the hours
in your log-just the certification). Ameriflight used to hire
folks with your qualifications for part 135vfr ops...and now
you want to pay $52/hour...get a cfi ticket and live off the
difference while you build time.

I looked at doing the same thing when I had same
amount of tt. I decided to get my cfi ticket, one
of the major reasons was the PFT time was not PIC,
so it would not count towards the majors as turbine
time and I would also have been responsible
to know the systems of a turbine aircraft inside and
out! Which at an interview could be a bad thing
-- compared to say a Seneca which makes for a
lot easier questions on one of the most stressful
days ever! Either way you sound motivated and
Good Luck, jp

 

[tredding@swa]

PFT, schmeeFT

Guys,

What I see here is how you choose to pay yer "dues"....

As a former line boy, now pro-pilot and current SWA Poolie... remember this, please;

We who are passionate about what we do will continue to be taken advantage of by owners of companies that understand that we will "fly 4 food".

IF you choose to (please excuse me) "whore" yourself out and choose to NOT have a constant upward motion in your career - it is a path that you must live with.

There are not many careers that have such a plethora of roads that eventually lead to the same place.... all require commitment and sacrifice. PLEASE do yourself and your fellow aspiring aviators a favor, ALWAYS get paid for flying the equipment!!!! It is figured in all D.O.C.s for operating an airplane... don't let ANY operator off the hook for paying a pilot to perform what he/she has trained to do, EVER!!!

Thanks for hearing my opinion..... I have hired many pilots, NONE were ever asked to fly for free.... or to pay for it either!

Good Luck in your career development. No job is more fun, or more satisfying than being a professional pilot. K

 

[jimbo]

Ditto tredding....
Please don't go that route. There are plenty of flying jobs out there but you have to work at it. Get your CFI, it's alot less than 12K that you're essentially giving Ameriflt. I was in your position 4 years ago and considered this route (for about 2 minutes). The secret is is keep plugging away at it. I know one guy that went that route and to me determined a certain "character". He chose the "low Road"and is now not flying. He was'nt willing to go the extra mile and thus has given up. Not to say this is the case in every situation but you see what I mean.
Another point, being a former night freight guy I use to see Ameriflight all the time at CVG. They will leave you at whereever you are if there's a W/B problem. Ameriflight is a good company with a good rep in the frt industry but this is one portion of that I don't agree. Get your 1200 hours (135 mins) and then apply. You'll fly the smaller stuff but it will lead to the 1900's and metro's. And you won't spend a dime!
Last but not least there are some companys that will not recognize the SIC time. Continental express is one. I had one friend that used his questionable SIC (at least that's what C.E. said but the same as what you will have) and they ended the interview as soon as they found out.
Just my two cents......take the "high road". You will feel much prouder in the end!

 

[cheezpilot]

Paying SIC jobs

Do not pay for training (which is more specifically defined as paying for flight time that is questionably loggable). Do not pay for a job that a company should be paying you to do (like Gulfstream). I do know of a few SIC positions that they pay you for because the FAA requires another crew member. Last time I heard Superior Aviation out of Lansing, MI hired low timers with 1000hrs, CFII, and almost no multi to fly SIC in freight metro III's. They pay like 1000 buck a month. Don't quote me on this but a friend of mine used to do the hiring. So why would you pay do do the same job at Ameriflight or some other places. SIC time in anything that does not require a type and the operation is single pilot freight is useless time and money wasted.