Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[The Prussian]

Prussian, sounds just like what E. Gann said about AAL back in 1940. "As an airline pilot you are a slave to numbers", after he got bumped out his Capt's seat during a cut back.

Agreed. If that book was Fate....reminds me...gotta dig it out sometime and reread it. Been meaning to do that.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Really? Somebody call Dr. Helmreich and Dr. Foushee...both of whom have been researching and reporting on the issue since 1966. Maybe NASA should try to get their grant money back!

Start here and do some of your own research. It's interesting!

http://www.risk-e.com/conference2006/helmreich

How about some research done in THIS century



from www.age60.com
Aerospace Medical Association finds no medical support for the Age 60 Rule After 2-plus years of study, the Aerospace Medical Association's Civil Aviation Safety Subcommittee found last year (2004) that there is insufficient medical evidence and/or accident record to support airline pilot restrictions based on age alone. The Subcommittee thus suggests that the Association abandon its 20-plus year prior policy of support, and recommends that the FAA abandon the Age 60 Rule altogether, change the cutoff criteria, or raise the age limit. Note: This was one of the sources cited by ICAO in justifying it increase of the age limit for airline pilots.The Subcommittee's recommendation to the Association's governing body, dated January 15, 2004, can be viewed at: Aerospace Medical Association Position Paper, Age 60 Rule,(.pdf, 48 Kb).The paper was published in the Association's scientific journal Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine, Vol. 75, No.8, August 2004. Note: At the bottom of p.6, last sentence of the Staff paper, the AsMA Subcommittee recognizes the methodological flaws underlying Reports 3 and 4 of the FAA/CAMI 4-part study that is the subject of my DQAct complaint. Visit the "Woolsey DQAct Complaint & Docket" at left to view these Data Quality Act complaint documents.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Heard some more about the 60-year old 747 "retired" pilot that was mentioned earlier on this thread.

I have heard that he's an age-60 ex 747 captain who is driving for an airport shuttle service, hauling foreign pilots between the airport and their hotels. Some of the pilot crew he transports are older than he is and still flying as airline captains in their own country. When they come to the US they switch (on paper) to F/O so as to be in compliance with ICAO-USA laws. Of course after November 23 when the ICAO rules change, he'll be transporting foreign captains who will be older than he is and carrying their bags too for a $1 tip per-person.

This pilot is an unwanted burden on the PBGC, probably welfare and food stamps too. All he wants is to work at his profession and doesn't want to be a burden on anyone or any government. I have heard that he has two kids in high school and both want to attend college. At least his flight attendant wife is working to help out. This guy did two tours in Vietnam as a forward air controller before his airline career. Is this what pilots get for their military service and 40 years of paying taxes: Demeaning handouts from compassionate foreign pilots and our government as the FAA lets foreigners fly in our country taking our jobs while ALPA and APA endorse this? Our pilot unions in this country make me sick because they are sick to endorse this kind of discrimination. I bet the Saudi pilots, the Mexicans and the Canadians are in disbelief as this unfortunate captain has his hand out hoping for a tip.

If the law is not changed the only difference for me will be that my wife is not employed and I only have one kid in high school. If only my union that I have been a member of for so many years would do what is right instead of using extermination as the solution.

 

[ivauir]

Its about money for you too, don't kid yourself or try to BS us about that either. A little honesty goes a long way. You want guys gone so you can move up and get into the left seat which is your big raise. You never made any response to my idea of letting the guys back that had to retire at 60 but were yet to turn 65 and bringing them back at there old seniority. What, you didn't like that idea since it would also screw up "your" money issues?

First off, I have been saying this is a money issue from the begning (over and over again). I am not kidding myself and I am pretty sick of being accused of lying or BSing just because I don't agree with you.

Actually, I suggested retirees returning about 17 pages ago so I thought further coment from me wasn't warrented.

Letting the over 60 (including retirees) fly from the right seat only solves the scheduling problems, mitigates some of the senority stagnation issues, and is the only compromise I've heard anyone propose. It gives everyone the same thing - more time in the right seat. You spend a lot of time discussing what your situation was and what you presume mine to be, but not everyone is at a "growth airline" and changing the law will affect more than just SWA. SR65 will never have the support of the junior pilots. I suggest (again) producing legislation that isn't so one sided - earning the support of a clear majority of US pilots. You'll have mush better odds of success.

 

[heilhaavir]

On March 11, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) met and in a nearly unanimous vote, decided to increase the maximum age for airline pilots for ICAO member nations’ pilots from age-60 to age-65.

UndauntedFlyer, would you have a link or document about the march 11th meeting?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

On March 11, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) met and in a nearly unanimous vote, decided to increase the maximum age for airline pilots for ICAO member nations’ pilots from age-60 to age-65.

UndauntedFlyer, would you have a link or document about the march 11th meeting?

http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_m_anb.pl?icao/en/anb/peltrg/index.html​

 

[heilhaavir]

http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_m_anb.pl?icao/en/anb/peltrg/index.html​

Link doesn't work for me
I tried going to that site ancd looking it up under "meetings" but can't find any ICAO meetings on March 11th.
If anyone has a link or doc, could you please email it to me?
Thks a bunch
[email protected]

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Here is what the link says:

Age limit for flight crew
Amendment 167 to Annex 1​

The ICAO Council adopted on 10 March 2006 an amendment to Annex 1 — Personnel Licensing that increases by five years the upper age limit for commercial pilots operating two-pilot aircraft. The new provisions become applicable on 23 November 2006 and read as follows:
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.

 

[heilhaavir]

Thks Undaunted,
Cheers

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Can anyone justify why a Canadian or other foreign pilots can fly into this country as airline pilots over age-60 but not a US pilot?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Age 60 quote:

If the law is to deny a person employment, there must be a rational, solid, scientific body of evidence in support of the denial such that the denial is based on bona fide occupational qualifications. In fact, there is no such body of evidence to deny a pilot employment past age 60.

 

[General Lee]

Can anyone justify why a Canadian or other foreign pilots can fly into this country as airline pilots over age-60 but not a US pilot?

I am ABSOLUTELY against raising the age limit, but the English do it in a way that they seem to like. No Captains over age 60, and they can move to the right seat at that age, until age 62 I believe. That way, the upgrades are still there, and the old captains get to still fly for a couple years, taking orders from their former FOs. There would be a slow down in hiring though, since no seats would open, but the upgrades would still happen. I am still against it, for safety reasons.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Age 60 quote:

If the law is to deny a person employment, there must be a rational, solid, scientific body of evidence in support of the denial such that the denial is based on bona fide occupational qualifications. In fact, there is no such body of evidence to deny a pilot employment past age 60.

The Supreme Court ruled against a group of Southwest Captains looking to overturn the rule. They stated that if they changed the rule for one profession, they would have to do it for others, like firemen and police officers. Do you want a 61 year old fireman carrying you down a burning staircase? That was the logic, and I think it is true. There may be some old firemen in great shape, but the majority are not, just like pilots.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[crosscut]

Can anyone justify why a Canadian or other foreign pilots can fly into this country as airline pilots over age-60 but not a US pilot?

Same reason why there is still child labor in some countries, or women are treated like slaves, or Indians think that a cow could have been their relative in former life. Simply put, Undaunted, different cultures = different laws AND not all have a reason and/or are logical. Wanna fly past 60? Go to Canada or any other country that has such a disregard for safety.

 

[The Prussian]

but the upgrades would still happen.

That matters if that is what is important to you. But if you're interested in truth, justice, and the American Way,....well,...

And come on,....safety added as an after thought??!!