Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Jim Smyth]

Really? Somebody call Dr. Helmreich and Dr. Foushee...both of whom have been researching and reporting on the issue since 1966. Maybe NASA should try to get their grant money back!

Start here and do some of your own research. It's interesting!

http://www.risk-e.com/conference2006/helmreich

Oh, I guess he used this information when they put the age 60 issue in place back in 1959 ah?

Face it, it is strictly a money issue. If it was based on health reasons alone we would have comprehensive flight physicals every 6 months rather than just a dog and pony show! I mean what a waste of time!

Talk to your AME. If you have known him for any amount of time and they are honest they will tell you that they are there to make sure you self disclose any health problems. They will only find gross items of health that are out of wack or if body parts have literally fallen off.

For once I would like to see an honest young FO say the reason they want it to stay age 60 is because "I want to upgrade and make more money!" I would have allot more respect for that statement. Because your health issues are pure BS!

 

[Phaedrus]

I want to upgrade earlier and make more money.

 

[Phaedrus]

Oh, and I don't want or need your respect.

Current Captains that have been through allot of the prior Airline BS want there turn at the top.

You've had/are having your turn at the top. The top is 60. Has been for a long time. What you want is an extended stay at the top at the expense of the young "greedy" guys.

 

[Jim Smyth]

I would have allot more respect for that statement.

I said the "statement" but not you personally!

 

[3BCat]

Wakr Up!!! You'll never get this changed without the support of the junior guys. Come up with a compromise or live with the status quo.

:beer: Brilliant!! Get the support of the junior guys? :beer: Brilliant!! I'll explain how we all face age discrimination, and how we no longer need to swallow CR Smith's legislative POS. :beer: Brilliant!!

Compromise? What are you looking for, your silver spoon!?!? We've been swallowing this crap for so long, some of you are starting to like it!!

 

[Phaedrus]

I said the "statement" but not you personally!

For the statement to have any meaning it must be made by a person, ergo it is personal.
But I mean no disrespect to you. In fact you're one of the few, maybe the only, who actually agrees with me in that this is a money issue...period. Those that are quacking about discrimination and legislation and consternation aren't fooling anyone but themselves.
You say you want your time at the top. I realize you'll tell me that I'll get my time at the top later. What about those that aren't going to get their time at the top? Furloughed brothers and sisters, recently retired pilots, generations of pilots before us, and those that planned on making this a career until 60 and then getting on with their lives.
Every time I read a thread like this it reminds me of the pansy-@ss moron that joins the military for all the benefits and then claims they didn't know any better when Uncle Sam sticks an M-16 in their mitts and tells them to go do what they signed up for. Poor analogy maybe, but I'm sick of hearing about all the travails of the senior guys and how they have to make up for it by serving up a steaming sh!t sandwich to the younger guys. Guess what? It's the airline industry. It can be unpredictable. Deal.

 

[ivauir]

For once I would like to see an honest young FO say the reason they want it to stay age 60 is because "I want to upgrade and make more money!" I would have allot more respect for that statement. Because your health issues are pure BS!

Jim, I have said it over and over again. How about admitting you want to change the rule is because "I want to stay at the top of the senority pile and make more money".

 

[ivauir]

:beer: Brilliant!! Get the support of the junior guys? :beer: Brilliant!! I'll explain how we all face age discrimination, and how we no longer need to swallow CR Smith's legislative POS. :beer: Brilliant!!

Compromise? What are you looking for, your silver spoon!?!? We've been swallowing this crap for so long, some of you are starting to like it!!

This is exactly the attitude holding this movement back. Pompus and condensending. If anyone has a silver spoon, pal, it isn't me. My dues are paid in full - the only reason you are in the left seat and I am in the right is because you are older than me. Someone was sent out to pasture for you to upgrade and if you want to change the rules you are going to need more than the support of pilots older than 50.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Jim, I have said it over and over again. How about admitting you want to change the rule is because "I want to stay at the top of the seniority pile and make more money".

Yes. it is about the money. I am already topped out so I wont get any more raises by staying past 60. All my raises and my current good seniority came from expansion. I was #1277 when I got hired in 1992. I am now somewhere around #870. So I moved up 400 numbers in 14 years. But we are coming up to 5000 Pilots. Thats called seniority through growth! Thats where you do well by growing an airline, thats how you get into the left seat! Thats why the Pilots in 1994 were smart enough and took a 5 year pay freeze. So the company can make more money to buy more airplanes to grow. If they didn't do this and took a militant attitude you may not be here right now. You grow by expansion, not by moving up because of retirements. Retirements help but only fractionally. Now if the growth stops or goes the other way, then thats the only way to move up. Been there, done that and you don't want to go there! But so far that hasn't happened at SWA. We are indeed very, very fortunate.

For me I would like the opportunity to stay longer if need be. Not saying I would but I need to make sure that me and my wife have medical insurance when I retire ( which is my big issue), either by cashing in my sick bank which I should have enough for both of us if they don't negotiate that away by then. Or if something bad happens health wise and I need to use it and not have any of my sick bank left to trade in. So yes it again is a money issue for me too. So why don't you tell you elected SWAPA officials and make sure you vote this upcoming section 6 for extended retirement medical coverage for our Pilots (providing the age we are forced out does stay at age 60) and spouses and I may be gone sooner than you know! Then you can have it all!

Its about money for you too, don't kid yourself or try to BS us about that either. A little honesty goes a long way. You want guys gone so you can move up and get into the left seat which is your big raise. You never made any response to my idea of letting the guys back that had to retire at 60 but were yet to turn 65 and bringing them back at there old seniority. What, you didn't like that idea since it would also screw up "your" money issues?

You and a few others that work for SWA had made other comments about me going back into the right seat after 60. Would I want to do this, No. Would I do it if I had to, Yes. This may be an issue for some guys but not for me. I flight instructed for many years all in the right seat. Did 3 airlines going up and down the seniority lists in both seats. Was a check airman at my last job in the right seat. So for me its not a seat issue but I too, as you put it "have paid my dues" and would rather not.

 

[Phaedrus]

...as you put it "have paid my dues" and would rather not.

No one currently flying in a 121 job has paid their dues. They're renewable at the whim of this crazy little thing called life. "Paid dues" leaves the impression one is owed something in return for one's loyalty/hard work/longevity/luck/etc. Better to leave that wish at home.

 

[SWAdude]

No one currently flying in a 121 job has paid their dues. They're renewable at the whim of this crazy little thing called life. "Paid dues" leaves the impression one is owed something in return for one's loyalty/hard work/longevity/luck/etc. Better to leave that wish at home.

I certainly feel like I have earned what I have. Some luck, but mostly hard work and making the sacrifice required to have my career.

I think that paying your dues "earns" you the right to have what you "payed" for.

As a side note.....this debate will never enlighten anyone to their side. Its too selfish of an issue. I wouldn't waste my time if I were you guys. I would take the same time an email congress and the senate. Those are the people you ultimately have to convince. Not the greedy old captain and first officer.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Oh, I guess he used this information when they put the age 60 issue in place back in 1959 ah?

Didn't say that, did I? I responded to this statement by you:

This has always been about money! Since there was never any tests or medical research done prior to 1959 until present date just proves this.

I highlighted a couple of parts to point out that you were wrong. It's called "debate". You assert something...and I prove your assertion wrong.

How the rule was adopted doesn't matter at this point in time if the evidence shows that it is currently a beneficial rule. Can we agree on that much?

The issue is simple: Is it a good rule right now?

Face it, it is strictly a money issue. If it was based on health reasons alone we would have comprehensive flight physicals every 6 months rather than just a dog and pony show! I mean what a waste of time!

The money issue doesn't matter to me.

The reason we don't have comprehensive physicals is because we self-disclose and self-certify. The FAA has seen fit to "trust" us to a certain extent. Note: I'm not sure when the "trust" policy was adopted...or how...but I think it's working and don't advocate changing it.

Talk to your AME. If you have known him for any amount of time and they are honest they will tell you that they are there to make sure you self disclose any health problems. They will only find gross items of health that are out of wack or if body parts have literally fallen off.

Excellent! Thank you for making one of my key points!

'Splain to me exactly HOW a pilot with diminished cognitive ability determines he/she is suffering diminished cognitive ability? The self-certification paradox!

For once I would like to see an honest young FO say the reason they want it to stay age 60 is because "I want to upgrade and make more money!" I would have allot more respect for that statement. Because your health issues are pure BS!

Are you asserting that with the same certainty as your "never been any fatigue research" comment?

 

[The Prussian]

You gotta admit...those descriptions of "furloughed brothers and sisters" sound an awful lot like ole Jim there, not too many years ago. Seems to me he got hammered by the seniority list from above, and now he's getting hammered by the junior guys from below on this thread. I don't sense pompousness or condescension...just trying to slug it out at his position and survive. After all is said and done, life itself is just one big seniority conveyor belt.

And...monkeying around with the seniority system (in an effort to make things fairer), and wishing for tighter medical surveilance....well,... be careful what you wish for...you just may end up having to live with it.

 

[Phaedrus]

I certainly feel like I have earned what I have

Yes, precisely. You have earned what you have. What no one has earned, i.e. can expect because one has "paid their dues", is any promise of anything in the future in this business, including tomorrow or even this afternoon when you show.
That's what I was referring to when I said dues are renewable, and largely at whims of events that no one has any control over whatsoever. Those that believe they've earned something are setting their heels on the precipice. Even more so, those that think they deserve special treatment at the expense of others haven't "earned" anything or "paid" for anything. Think about it. If the rule is overturned those at the top will be fortunate enough to be the right age at the right time. That's something altogether different than earning something.

 

[pilotyip]

Prussian, sounds just like what E. Gann said about AAL back in 1940. "As an airline pilot you are a slave to numbers", after he got bumped out his Capt's seat during a cut back.