Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Boeingman]

[yawn]

Before you fall a sleep there Belly, be sure to get some kleenex and clean yourself up.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Alright boringman ... I'll write back.

The fact is a disproportionate number of general aviation old farts are crashing airplanes and killing people. No doubt SOME of these accidents have been attributed to the diminished mental capacity associated with aging. I'm willing to bet there are similar rates of dementia and mental degradation occurring in both populations (general aviation and airline pilot). After talking to numerous other airline pilots, I'm confident ONE of the major reasons old geezer airline pilots don't crash nearly as often as their general aviation brethren is due to timely safety intervention by their first officers.

To deny that: vision deteriorates with age, reflexes slow, mental acuity slows, memory is impaired, hearing declines, etc... is foolish. Age 60 is an appropriate accommodation to mandate retirement in the interest of safety.

Now go die your hair and soak your dentures pops!

BBB

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well since current Professional Airline Pilots cant fly past 60 they wouldnt be included in that report now would they? General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection. The maintenance isnt there plus the skill level isnt there with usually a single Pilot operation. Besides, we have super Co-Pilots like Triple "BBB" to keep us out of trouble.

 

[skykid]

General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection.

That's not what the article is about. The article is about how age plays a factor in the accidents. But like you said, we have many layers of protection, so why not let airline pilots go till they are 100 or dead, whichever occurs first? All those layers of protection will keep the danger level down.

 

[skykid]

General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection.

And guess what one of those layers of protection is? Give up? Hang em up at AGE 60!!

 

[Jeepman]

Hmmm....

I'm 31 yrs old so I have three options:

1. Be pissed about the idea of the age 60 being moved to 65 and curse at all the senior pilots who are fighting for 5 more years to work before retirement since their pensions were raped from them.

2. Bank on the age 60 rule and pray it doesn't change before I go to a major.

3. Do the best I can where I am now and don't think about more money to spend on a bigger house, newer car, vacation. Instead focus on investing in my retirement however I can, and spending as much time with my family as I can before my girls are grown up and I'm a cranky pissed off airline pilot that has to work until 65 to pay for all of my crap (boat, airplane, divorce, etc). However this option doesn't exclude the option to go to a major, it just doesn't bank on it!

I am going for option 3.

GOOD DAY AND GOOD LUCK!

 

[Flopgut]

Allright Boeingman/Megacaptain:

I have looked more closely at the NC and your not right at all. Those initials you listed were just functionaries. NC policy was shaped by TS and RM, both former PE with 20+ years. I thought I was right, but I had to check into it. Do you even read anything the union puts out? Did you not listen to the P2P calls at all? I'm pretty sure you didn't, you must be too busy.

So you doubt my advice about the lump sum? You don't even really need it, huh? Just extra, eh? That would surprise me, but we do have a few guys like that. They might fly OK, but usually don't know pigpoop from apple butter when it comes to union stuff. So hey, you must be extra wealthy! UAL & USAir and perhaps soon DAL & NWA lose their retirements but your not too sure ole flopgut isn't lying to you. Far better to hang around and make sure a junior creep like me gets not so much as one decent pairing! It would just kill you to see anyone do well or get something that could be yours, even if you don't really want/need it.

Now pay attention: if you lose that lump sum I don't want to hear you gripe about it. Additionally, I don't want to have to negotiate anything special for those of you who might lose it and then want all of us sacrifice and make a special effort to raise you up. You can do something smart and take care of yourself now, or you can be less than smart and put yourself at risk. I carefully make that point to make this point: It is not unlike the age 60 rule. There are things we all need to be doing throughout our careers to get ourselves ready to retire. If most of you age change folks had actually done that, maybe the rest of us would not have to put our career progressions on hold to raise each of you up. Senior CAL pilots need to be ready to act on that lump sum if it becomes in doubt. I DO NOT want to have to be told you need to work to 70 because you lost your lump sum! I DO NOT want to be called a scab, or be called greedy, or have my respect for the early years of ALPA questioned, and I especially DO NOT want to have to put my career on hold again because you senior guys can't make smart decisions. Like Ron White says: "you can't fix stupid".

I have spent the better part of a decade working within rank. Trying to be predictable and helpful and contribute. Now I look ahead at quite possibly 5 years of stagnation with frustration and you tell me "I have a lot of nerve". I'll handle it if I have to, I'll be professional about it, one of us has to be.

No more scab talk. Remember, I want to support the union's position on the issue. You want to craft an additional five years of super senioity for yourself outside the collective bargaining agreement. Who is acting like a scab?

 

[Flopgut]

The Age 60 rule has always been a lousy rule and has never been grounded in anything related to safety. For 48 years it's been screwing otherwise healthy pilots out of their right to continue to fly. Their screwing has enabled others to move up.

Now an attempt is being made to begin to end this discrimination. To do this, those pilots who would have been the beneficiaries of other's hardships will have to wait for 5 years, only a little more than 10% of the time this discriminatory law has been on the books. Of all the things people could blame their lack of up upgrade on (9/11, RJ's, bankruptcy, etc.) blaming it on the righting of a historic wrong (no matter how long it's been that way) is an argument that rings most hollow.

The old cliche' "A rising tide lifts all ships" should be what we in the airline industry look for to insure the continued progression to the left seat, not the indefensible demand that those above a certain age walk the plank to lighten the ship.

I think it is absurd to suggest pilots in my demographic were to be beneficiaries of other's "hardships" singuliarly. What about yourself? How come you don't suggest the same for your own upgrade? Were you special? If you get to work five more years in the left seat your "righting a historic wrong" and I'm taking advantage of someone?! To suggest you retire is an "indefensible demand that you walk the plank". But you sure were delighted when everybody walked the plank senior to you! A little advice: If you want to wax eloquently and NOT sound like a hypocrite, you need to make an urgent plea for pilots <65 and senior to you, to get to come back.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If you're an f/o looking to upgrade, this change will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The above statement is simply not true. In fact just the opposit is true. Working for five more years totally offsets your above concerns.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Dear ALPA:

From the words of our greatest leaders….

Abraham Lincoln:
In my opinion, the agitation will not cease until a crises shall have been reached and passed. “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” I believe this union cannot endure permanently half of one mind and half of another. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all of the other.

Ronald Reagan:
“Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall.”

With all due respect, there is a message here on the age-60/65 issue.

The crisis will only become greater and greater each day. There is only one way to defuse it. Change.

Regards,
Undaunted Flyer