Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[UndauntedFlyer]

On March 11, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) met and in a nearly unanimous vote, decided to increase the maximum age for airline pilots for ICAO member nations’ pilots from age-60 to age-65.
What that means is this: Effective November 23, 2006, the United States will be legally required to respect the new age-65 limitation and allow all foreign airline pilots from any member nation to operate in our airspace. Pilots over age-60 from ICAO member nations will be able to fly to and from all of our airports. Senior pilots from Canada, Mexico, China, Japan, Korea, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Pakistan, India, Brazil and all European nations except France (France requires all workers to retire at 60), will have a right by United States law to fly into and throughout the United States, but US citizens who are the same age will not be able to fly at all. Instead of working for a living at their professions, our pilots that turn age-60 and are employed by U.S. airlines such as Southwest, Jet Blue, US Air, United, Delta, American and Northwest will all be grounded by FAA regulation. Pilots from all other countries will have a right to make a living flying to and from American airports but American pilots will have no such right. American pilots who are over age-60, no matter that they may be in excellent health, will instead probably become a burden on the government "guaranteed" and financially strapped PBGC as well as the Social Security system when they turn 62. This is all the result of a nearly 50-year old FAA regulation that hasn't keep pace with the rest of the world. Even though our pilots are just as healthy, among the world's best trained and far more experienced than any foreign pilot at flying into the most complex of U.S. airports, this outdated regulation still applies? Why should foreign pilots be allowed to fly into American airports to earn their livings when an American taxpaying family man can not do the same thing? No matter the politics, the principals of equal rights and laws against discrimination should apply here, especially for American’s over foreign workers that pay no U.S. taxes.

The airline pilots who are turning age-60 today and in the next few years are mostly former military veterans, many of whom flew combat missions over Vietnam in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s, some even fought in Desert Storm. That means that many of our most respected citizens, the military veterans who have fought for our country are being grounded every day by bureaucracy in government combined with a labor issue. The time for change on the age-60 rule is long overdue. Is anything at all owed to these Vietnam and Desert storm veterans?

There is now a wall, just like the Berlin Wall, that is dividing ALPA and it gets bigger and bigger every day with the loss of the US Air, United, Delta, and Northwest Airlines defined benefit programs. "A house divided against itself can not stand. It must become one thing or the other," A. Lincoln. The division can not stand, for if it does the Union will fall.

"Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall," R. Reagan. The Berlin Wall fell. Does anyone think the age-60 wall will stand? When will it fall?

Comments/questions.......

 

[Jim Smyth]

UndauntedFlyer, this is a good thing. Its the first crack in the iceberg and that means change is in the air!

 

[General Lee]

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. They ruled against a group of Southwest pilots who wanted the rules changed. They stated that they would have to change the rules for more groups, like firemen and policemen. I don't want a 62 year old fireman carrying me out of a burning house. Nope.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

Be careful what you wish for!

The FAA has testified that they will respond if Congress meddles with the regs. I don't think we'll like the response.

 

[PurpleTail]

On March 11, 2006, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) met and in a nearly unanimous vote, decided to increase the maximum age for airline pilots for ICAO member nations’ pilots from age-60 to age-65.

What that means is this: Effective November 23, 2006, the United States will be legally required to respect the new age-65 limitation and allow all foreign airline pilots from any member nation to operate in our airspace.

Comments/questions.......

I am sure there is more to the story, the devil is in the details.

Change in the rule is on the horizon but it will still be a few years in the US. Nothing ever gets done in this country without alot of paper pushing, hearings, debates, and of course...lawyers.

I am sure there are quit a few senior captains healthy enough to fly past 60 but I now just a many at 55 that should not be flying. So how do set an age and change the rules that is fair (and safe) to all?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The "Wall" will fall on December 23, 2006. There will be no changes in medical certification or anything else except pilots will be able to continue flying to age 65.

ALPA will have large numbers of resignations. The cause, poor leadership in times of change such as now.


Help is needed. Join APAAD.

 

[ironspud]

The "Wall" will fall just before the end of this year. There will be no changes in medical certification or anything else except pilots will be able to continue flying to age 65.

"Agency shop" will disapear in 2007 and ALPA will have large numbers of resignations. The cause, poor leadership in times of change such as now.

Now, THERE is a GOOD prognostication. On both counts.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Join APAAD.......That is the answer to the collapse of the Wall.


ALPA can be saved if they act now to tear down the wall that divides the Union. I do now expect this to happen.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Why Do You All Want To Fly Past 60?

 

[PurpleTail]

Join APAAD.......That is the answer to the collapse of the Wall.

I think in your case it is AARP, time to stay out in the pasture.

The 'Wall' will stand and stay at 60, for everyone's sake.

 

[BonesF15]

I was told by several folks that if/when the rules change to 60plus that an Astronaut physical will be required after age 50.
This could be a major downer for many of the guys pushing the over 60 thing.

 

[CaptainMark]

Why Do You All Want To Fly Past 60?

lets see...greed..failed marriageS...invested in elephants that poop gold bars...money mismanagement..no life...oh well..i will have to be #1 on the seniority list for another 5 years...

 

[Huck]

B727, 737, 747-400, 757, 767, 777, DC-10

Mr. UndauntedFlyer -

all due respect, but I would argue that you flew every one of these aircraft 5 years earlier because of the age sixty rule.

Now it no longer suits you, so you want to change it. Well, that'll probably be my opinion when I'm 59. But right now I'm just trying to raise kids in a single income home, and I've got many good friends furloughed right now.

How 'bout riding your Hog, flying your Pitts, and letting the younger folks earn. Or go fly King-Aires. Change your paradigm.

Again, all due respect. When I get to 59 I'll agree with you. But statistically I've got about a 70% chance of making it that far with my medical, and I've got kids to feed.....

Huck

 

[CSY Mon]

If the 60 rule is changed to 65, several thousand furloughed pilots will not be recalled.

Go retire, go fishing and don't hog the seat: You had your turn in the honey pot, let the next guy move up.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Is anything at all owed to these Vietnam and Desert storm veterans?

Comments?

 

[N1kawotg]

General "The Supreme Court disagrees with you. They ruled against a group of Southwest pilots who wanted the rules changed. They stated that they would have to change the rules for more groups, like firemen and policemen"

I'm not here to disagree with you on age 60 but I think the Supreme Court decided against a law suit over age discrimination. They said that is the law in place and ruled against and threw out the case that the pilots based on discrimination. The pilots did not try to get the rule thrown out, that is the job of the senate and house.

CSY- How many guys have been recalled due to retirements. I'm pretty sure they have alot of pilots retire in the past 4 years. Did companies hire that same number back. My guess-NO. There are many airlines that are recalling now, some based on retirements some growth. My point, just cause one retires doesn't mean co. x with recall one. They'll try to make the ones at the co. work harder first.

 

[Flopgut]

Comments?

How many pilots are in the desert right now who are furloughed, or will come back and want to fly for an airline? Do they not matter to you? They just want the same opportunities those vets got.

 

[Lear70]

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. They ruled against a group of Southwest pilots who wanted the rules changed. They stated that they would have to change the rules for more groups, like firemen and policemen. I don't want a 62 year old fireman carrying me out of a burning house. Nope.

I agree with you a lot, General, but I think you and a lot of other people that think the age 60 rule will stand are in for a rude awakening.

The government dropped the ball with pension reform YEARS ago, now they're going to have to live with it. The PBGC is going to require a Federal bailout, the aviation community is in shambles, and it is, in large, a product of failure of the Federal Government to pick a side. Either they side on "free enterprise" and stop bailing out airlines when they go belly-up and/or protecting airlines when working try to engage in self-help, OR the government decides to re-regulate the industry. Pick one, this mix and match of which rules apply to which airline isn't working - hasn't for the last 20+ years.

In this case, where you stand has a LOT to do with how involved you are and what you have to gain. If you're age 60, have no pension (or a $2,400 a month check and you were planning on $12,400 because YOU EARNED IT, IT WAS PART OF YOUR HOURLY COMPENSATION THAT A PORTION OF IT WENT TO YOUR PENSION, then you probably feel justified to keep working if you want to.

Similarly, you should be allowed to retire if you DESIRE at age 60. Megadeath, I hear you, I will HOPEFULLY be set enough to disappear at age 55, but if I'm not, it should be my choice to keep going to 60, 65, as long as I can hold the medical.

BonesF15, I think you're right on the mark. I see Congress, the Senate, and the President all signing legislation that allows an Age 65 pilot to fly, then I see the FAA stepping up and saying "Fine, but just like an EKG is required at certain age groups, we'll simply add to that list and past age 60 require a $1,500 physical every 6 months to keep going including stress EKG and EEG, cardio enzyme, tighter blood pressure ranges, etc, and rule out about 60-70% of the over-60 pilots anyway."

Don't think they'll be able to stop the FAA from doing that, which will have an added plus: if older pilots want to keep flying they'll have to keep themselves in better shape, reducing their health-care costs dramatically.

PurpleTail, the above should satisfy your safety concerns, and I agree with you completely, I see some age 40 pilots who scare the crap out of me - they look like a walking cardiac risk then they fly with 19 year old 400 hour wonder-kids and I'm thinking (I don't want my family on THAT airplane when his kicker cuts out).

The ICAO rule is set to go into effect whether anyone likes it or not. A lot of Indian and Chinese airlines will go to hiring age 60-63 pilots who have thousands of hours in the 747/757/767 A330/340 and simply convert their FAA licenses over to their own country's ICAO equivalent with an equivalency exam and the normal sims required for new-hires and those guys will start flying all over the world again. THAT'S the loophole for US pilots for now, and once the U.S. government (and the FAA) sees that there's no way to prohibit these guys and gals from doing it, they'll probably cave in.

No reason to shut the barn door AFTER the cows have exited the building. Age 65 is coming whether you like it or not, gentlemen.

 

[Osmosis]

I don't think anyone will argue that the reason ALPA is divided on this issue is the different age groups in ALPA. Right? If I am not mistaken, a majority of the pilots, albeit a small majority, is not in favor of the age 60 rule being increased to let's say 65. Why, because more ALPA members are younger rather than older. I read previously in this thread that ALPA needs to be together on this instead of divided. So why does the majority have to concede the issue to be together as a union? Why can't the minority, those wanting to fly at over age 60, concede and support the rest of the union and fight against the rule? Wouldn't that break the wall that exists? I don't think it is fair for everyone else in the union to capitulate for your cause, when the majority of the union is against it. But that's my very small, and humble opinion.

 

[Flopgut]

This change will stratify the profession even more. I am less worried about airline mgts than I am about these senior pilots that will be allowed to linger. Combine greed with the fact that this change is simply a gift to them that required no additional discipline and the results are worrysome. They are going to want more pay and benefits at the top. Too many will have zero regard for what that does to the bottom half of the seniority list. (nothing like this happened to them in their career) I already hear far too much talk at CAL of a captains only raise. Just look at the tone of the posts here by the age change contingent. Look for them to not only pull up the ladder on the rest of us, they will probably roll out the "cauldron of boiling oil" to pour on our heads. They will cut deals with mgt and enable them to make the <50% seniority airline career worth zip.

 

[Boeingman]

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

This change will stratify the profession even more. I am less worried about airline mgts than I am about these senior pilots that will be allowed to linger. Combine greed with the fact that this change is simply a gift to them that required no additional discipline and the results are worrysome. They are going to want more pay and benefits at the top. Too many will have zero regard for what that does to the bottom half of the seniority list. (nothing like this happened to them in their career) I already hear far too much talk at CAL of a captains only raise. Just look at the tone of the posts here by the age change contingent. Look for them to not only pull up the ladder on the rest of us, they will probably roll out the "cauldron of boiling oil" to pour on our heads. They will cut deals with mgt and enable them to make the <50% seniority airline career worth zip.

You just don't give up on this mantra do you? Blah blah blah senior pilots blah blah blah their fault blah blah blah I want to upgrade blah blah blah. Give it a rest pal. There has been a great deal of damage done by junior pilots here on property and at other carriers. Or have you forgotten what seniority bracket the NC was and some of the LEC reps?

Odd, I have never heard a peep about a "Captains only raise". What makes that even more ridiculous is that the contract is already finished which makes this diatribe a moot point. So you better try some new material that will give you a little more credibility.

This last post of yours makes it crystal clear what your real concerns are. Selfishness and worrying about yourself by blaming others. Inceidently, are you a scab?

Come up with some better arguments for a change. And don't forget that these senior people negotiated things in the past that made this a job for those like you to aspire to. What will the next generation say about what the current contracts being negotiated today?

BTW, when I was junior and getting hosed by the senior guys, I didn't whine and compalin about it. I guess that is what we have now is an entitlement society and thinking. At least for you anyway.

 

[Flopgut]

Think ahead to things like loss of license insurance. Claims are going to drive premiums into orbit! Exponetial cost increases with the benefits going disproportionally to senior captains. What a huge transfer of wealth! Not unlike this whole change issue, its a huge windfall for these pilots.

So senior captain X loses his physical at 63.5, collects LOL at captains rate, retires at 65 into Medicare and collects SS. I spend another 3-5 years at FO pay, shell out $400-$600 for LOL premiums, try to work to 65 and then retire and probably get no SS and possibly have no Medicare. Thanks guys.

 

[Draginass]

How about the geriatric cases who will push to come back out of retirement to regain their old seniority numbers?

 

[Lear70]

How about the geriatric cases who will push to come back out of retirement to regain their old seniority numbers?

An airline would have to approve that and I don't think they would for a number of reasons.

1. The airline's MEC would ALSO have to approve such a measure.
2. They would have to pay that Captain at the highest wage level they have, versus upgrading an 8 or 10-year guy.
3. LOL concerns mentioned earlier and other health care cost issues (higher premiums for a higher age group).
4. Can you say "FULL INITIAL TRAINING" required for these guys who have been out for a year or more? $$$

Lots of other stuff I'm probably not thinking of right off the cuff, but the main thing is to make sure your MEC wouldn't buy off on re-hire if you're that concerned about it. The retired guys would scream discrimination and probably sue ALPA but by the time the dust settled from that law suit, they'd be past age 65 anyway.

Plus, IF the feds make an "astronaut physical" a requirement, it could squash the majority of those retired pilot's claims anyway.

The sky is not falling... everybody take a pill.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The "Wall" will fall on December 23, 2006. There will be no changes in medical certification or anything else except pilots will be able to continue flying to age 65.

If the FAA is to be believed on the issue of medical certification....you are wrong on that point. The testimony of FAA witnesses, the briefings filed by the FAA, and comments they've made on Capital Hill indicate they do plan on changing both the standards and the testing if Congress crams a change down their throats.

ALPA will have large numbers of resignations. The cause, poor leadership in times of change such as now.

For doing what the pilots want?

It's a big tent. Even though we have a lot in common with each other, there are a few issues that tend to divide us. Bomb-throwing reactionaries who can't compartmentalize individual issues cause the vocal disunity. Nothing new there.

At NWA, every MEC meeting features a resolution reinstating the membership of pilots who resigned in a huff...then came crawling back when they realized they'd made a mistake. Not to go biblical, but the parable of the Prodigal Son comes to mind. I'm proud to be a member of an organization that offers redemption. (If I could just do the same consistently in my personal life, I'd be a better person)

Help is needed. Join APAAD.

Sure! And MoveOn, and the Log Cabin Republicans, and Planned Parenthood, and the John Birch Society.

But if you find one single element in any of their narrowly-focused platforms that you disagree with, I expect you to cut-and-run. The "Big Picture" isn't available on DVD. You gotta edit it yourself.

No slam intended here...just an observation. I don't join special interest organizations whenever I disagree with my wife on an issue....although I'm thinking of joining PPDDA ("Pilot Porn-Downloaders Defense Association"). I express my difference of opinion, then focus on the ties that bind.

 

[Flopgut]

How could I be a scab with 11k hours? How many years ago was that? Frankly, I consider the NC seniority level to be senior! I am quite junior to them, <10 years at CAL. I know there is a better way than what we are doing, I have seen it. It pains me to watch things happen here. It would be typical CAL politics that you would have no idea what goes on with most FOs. I hear often that we should have a captains only raise. It is obvious too that you have no regard for the affect this will have on FOs.

We are on the precipice of a wholesale seniority change here. I think it would be good. I wish you the best in your retirement, you are likely to already have more than I will get. I can't work on changing that until you retire. You concede as much in your last paragraph: You feel you got screwed, so it should be OK to screw me. I have a novel idea: How about nobody get screwed? Lets get the best deal we can for everybody!

Lets talk dollars, if you don't mind? Just round numbers. Your a B756 CA and you drop the S bomb a lot. Additionally, you think the NC members were "junior" with around 20 years. So I'm guessing you have 25+ years at CAL. The last guy I visited with that kind of longevity at retirement got a lump sum check for 900K. It might be as little as 750K, but still, how are any of the rest of us suppose to match that? The plan is frozen, the B plan stinks, the pay is down, and now we might have to keep you senior guys around. You are going to want us to negotiate more for you, and I know you have taken a hit, frankly I would like to see you get more. But you don't have that same regard for me, do you?

I'm not a scab. All I want is to wait in line and take a turn at the best deal we can create here at CAL.

 

[250scp]

Undaunted Flyer,

I'm a Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Operation Iraqi Freedom vet...and a furloughed pilot.....isn't it time for me to get back on campus so I can start enjoying a 20 year airline career?

Move over so the youngsters can have a shot at an airline career....

 

[crosscut]

Undaunted Flyer,

I'm a Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Operation Iraqi Freedom vet...and a furloughed pilot.....isn't it time for me to get back on campus so I can start enjoying a 20 year airline career?

Move over so the youngsters can have a shot at an airline career....

Hey, Undaunted Flyer, ........... comments?

 

[Flopgut]

BTW Boeingman:

You throw around the scab term enough that to me, I seriously doubt you "never whined and complained about getting hosed". Sounds to me like your a little displeased with some of our pilots. Well take a look at what this does to my career, the result is very much the same as a crossed picket line. Just what am I supposed to do? Be happy that seniority progression gets deffered for five years cause your such a great captain? I'm not calling you a scab, but have you even considered for a moment what its like for the junior pilots?

 

[G4G5]

It's going to happen sooner or later, so lets just get past it.

Bring on 65. For me to think that I can expect to go the next 21+ years without an age increase is absurd.