Options

[captold]

Really??

I didn't become anti-union until I got repeatedly screwed over by unions that I wasn't even a part of. I have yet to see where ANY union, especially in aviation, has made any carrier stronger. All I've seen is repeated failures by union leadership to support anything but their own membership at the expense of all the non-union workers and the overall health of the carrier. This cost to support the union takes away from infrastructure and the ability to retain talented employees that allow the carrier to run smoothly.

Then how do you explain the success that is going on at Net Jets? They have record profits, are purchasing NEW aircraft, hiring, and are attracting new owners at a high rate. You must be the screwup that brings it upon yourself. Duh!!

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's the pilots who "REALLY make things happen." Typical management attitude, you spend so much of your time in the office that you've lost all perspective. Without the pilots nothing anyone, managers, schedulers, or dispatchers do in the office matters. You are their to support us and in the case of Flight Options that support was severely lacking so we formed a union to support each other. Nothing more nothing less. You can spin it however you want Bob, but that's really all it's about.

I don't know about the internal workings of Options but I do understand the industry, and that’s the most egotistical and disrespectful thing you could possibly write as a pilot.

Pilots are not the only ones with an earned certificate that has paid their dues building their experience. If the clerk doesn’t pay the fuel bill, you don’t get fuel and pilots don’t fly. If the fueler doesn’t fuel the airplane, pilots don’t fly. If the mechanic doesn’t repair and sign off the airplane as airworthy, pilots don’t fly. In 121, a dispatcher doesn’t do the flight release, pilots don’t fly. If management doesn’t work finances of the airline every day, then the airline doesn’t fly. If marketing doesn’t bring new customers and sales doesn’t sell airplanes, pilots don’t fly. Every single job at an air carrier is equally important, yet it is nearly always the pilot’s union that throws the wrench into an otherwise perfectly good company and places the carrier at financial risk.

There are rare exceptions such as at Eastern where the primary issue was with the mechanics, but when was the last time you heard of a dispatcher’s union holding a work action preventing an airline from flying? Or a fueler, or ground support, or administrative or sales or marketing? They are all equally important and have a given responsibility to get the job done right to protect the pilots and passengers on each and every flight. Yet when the pilot’s union decides to hold the rest of the company hostage for what THEY believe is right, they forget that they are hurting all of those people that support them each and every flight. When the company is forced into bankruptcy or to take cuts elsewhere, it’s those support people that are hurt as well as the health of the company.

Yes, I’m former management, but it will always frost my butt that union leadership and those that drink the Kool-Aid and don’t have the ability to see the entire picture. The people they hurt are the exact people that protect there butts each and every day. I’m not saying that the wages and work rules don’t need to be fair for pilots because in the non-union airline I work they are. What union leadership considers FAIR for pilots means there WILL be a compromise for the rest of the company to stay financially solvent and get the job done in the best manner for all involved. The money is better spent on doing the best for the entire company, not just the pilots, to provide the best infrastructure possible to protect those people that are in the airplanes everyday. In return, the company stays healthy and everybody’s job is secure.


I haven't lost my perspective, I understand the big picture. After what you wrote, it's clear that you don't.

EVERBODY IS NEEDED, NOT JUST PILOTS.​

I like my safe, dependable and secure non union company.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Then how do you explain the success that is going on at Net Jets? They have record profits, are purchasing NEW aircraft, hiring, and are attracting new owners at a high rate. You must be the screwup that brings it upon yourself. Duh!!

ANY profit at NJ is a record profit isn't it?

 

[Phoenix]

I didn't become anti-union until I got repeatedly screwed over by unions that I wasn't even a part of. I have yet to see where ANY union, especially in aviation, has made any carrier stronger. All I've seen is repeated failures by union leadership to support anything but their own membership at the expense of all the non-union workers and the overall health of the carrier. This cost to support the union takes away from infrastructure and the ability to retain talented employees that allow the carrier to run smoothly. In reality, when pilots complain because "management can't do anything right" it is usually because the funds required to provide support are going into the CBA instead of those employees that REALLY make things happen. Kicking me in the nuts does nothing more than provide proof that my employment by a non-union carrier is the best think I ever did for my career. Be careful what you ask for.

Well sport you are just slap full of contradictions aren't you!!

"I didn't become anti-union until I got repeatedly screwed over by unions that I wasn't even a part of." A wise man once explained to me that the process of Union formation and the negotiation of a first CBA was nothing less the wrestling unilateral power out of managements hands and forcing it to be shared with the bargaining group. I guess since you were not a part of the Union you must have been involved somewhere on managements side of the power equation. And I can see from a management prospective that you felt like you were screwed because that old nasty pilots Union took away all you power, you no longer had the ability to exersize total power over those hot sh!t pilots.... Get over it.:bawling:

"I have yet to see where ANY union, especially in aviation, has made any carrier stronger." Well.....what about NetJets. I believe that they have had a record year since settling their contract. Or did that little fact just slip you mind???? Get Over It. :bawling:

"All I've seen is repeated failures by union leadership to support anything but their own membership at the expense of all the non-union workers and the overall health of the carrier. This cost to support the union takes away from infrastructure and the ability to retain talented employees that allow the carrier to run smoothly. " The Union is supposed to support the interest of their members, thats why the Union was formed. If the other employee groups wish to no longer be continually screwed by management then they to should organize to protect their interest. In light of what we have seen form the major carriers and the outrageous compensation packages paid to management while forcing all other employees to take huge pay cuts is what is truly criminal. I guess thats what you mean by retaining talented employees, the pilots and every other employee group should suffer and accept the horse sh!t that management wants to lay on us to save money to pay for more management. Well let me tell you something, your carriers will not run without equally as talented professionals sitting in the pointy ends of our jets. We deserve every penny and more for what we do. If Our CEO and his pack of boys have to make a little less to contribute to the betterment of out pilot group, so be it. Share the power and the money..... Get over it.:bawling:

"In reality, when pilots complain because "management can't do anything right" it is usually because the funds required to provide support are going into the CBA instead of those employees that REALLY make things happen." Our management has been screwing up and been unable to get things right for years and guess what, NO CBA. Management has grown for years layer after layer and yet they continue to screw it up and continue to prey on the well being of the pilot group. This is exactly what brought a Union to our company. We are no longer content to sit and watch incompetent management screw up on a daily basis and expect the pilots to take the heat for it and make up for their mistakes. We are no longer going to sit and watch as a incompetent management destroys our working conditions, quality of life, and our pay and benefits. A CBA is exactly what we need to establish what we expect from management and what management can expect from us. A CBA will establish a sharing of power and give the pilots a say in how this company operates.....GET OVER IT!!!:bawling:

"Kicking me in the nuts does nothing more than provide proof that my employment by a non-union carrier is the best think I ever did for my career. Be careful what you ask for." When people like you spew that holier then thou, all knowing, all important, managements sh!t don't stink crap you deserve to be kicked in the nuts. I'm glad that you are happy at your non union carrier, but I have a prediction. If your carrier is large enough to support the Unionization process, its just a matter of time before happens. Your attitude is exactly what will be the catalyst that brings it about. I guess that when that happens and you again have to give up your management utopia and share power with and bunch of people that are just "employees, you will feel like you were screwed again....GET OVER IT!!!:bawling:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Well sport you are just slap full of contradictions aren't you!!

"I didn't become anti-union until I got repeatedly screwed over by unions that I wasn't even a part of." A wise man once explained to me that the process of Union formation and the negotiation of a first CBA was nothing less the wrestling unilateral power out of managements hands and forcing it to be shared with the bargaining group. I guess since you were not a part of the Union you must have been involved somewhere on managements side of the power equation. And I can see from a management prospective that you felt like you were screwed because that old nasty pilots Union took away all you power, you no longer had the ability to exersize total power over those hot sh!t pilots.... Get over it.:bawling:

"I have yet to see where ANY union, especially in aviation, has made any carrier stronger." Well.....what about NetJets. I believe that they have had a record year since settling their contract. Or did that little fact just slip you mind???? Get Over It. :bawling:

"All I've seen is repeated failures by union leadership to support anything but their own membership at the expense of all the non-union workers and the overall health of the carrier. This cost to support the union takes away from infrastructure and the ability to retain talented employees that allow the carrier to run smoothly. " The Union is supposed to support the interest of their members, thats why the Union was formed. If the other employee groups wish to no longer be continually screwed by management then they to should organize to protect their interest. In light of what we have seen form the major carriers and the outrageous compensation packages paid to management while forcing all other employees to take huge pay cuts is what is truly criminal. I guess thats what you mean by retaining talented employees, the pilots and every other employee group should suffer and accept the horse sh!t that management wants to lay on us to save money to pay for more management. Well let me tell you something, your carriers will not run without equally as talented professionals sitting in the pointy ends of our jets. We deserve every penny and more for what we do. If Our CEO and his pack of boys have to make a little less to contribute to the betterment of out pilot group, so be it. Share the power and the money..... Get over it.:bawling:

"In reality, when pilots complain because "management can't do anything right" it is usually because the funds required to provide support are going into the CBA instead of those employees that REALLY make things happen." Our management has been screwing up and been unable to get things right for years and guess what, NO CBA. Management has grown for years layer after layer and yet they continue to screw it up and continue to prey on the well being of the pilot group. This is exactly what brought a Union to our company. We are no longer content to sit and watch incompetent management screw up on a daily basis and expect the pilots to take the heat for it and make up for their mistakes. We are no longer going to sit and watch as a incompetent management destroys our working conditions, quality of life, and our pay and benefits. A CBA is exactly what we need to establish what we expect from management and what management can expect from us. A CBA will establish a sharing of power and give the pilots a say in how this company operates.....GET OVER IT!!!:bawling:

"Kicking me in the nuts does nothing more than provide proof that my employment by a non-union carrier is the best think I ever did for my career. Be careful what you ask for." When people like you spew that holier then thou, all knowing, all important, managements sh!t don't stink crap you deserve to be kicked in the nuts. I'm glad that you are happy at your non union carrier, but I have a prediction. If your carrier is large enough to support the Unionization process, its just a matter of time before happens. Your attitude is exactly what will be the catalyst that brings it about. I guess that when that happens and you again have to give up your management utopia and share power with and bunch of people that are just "employees, you will feel like you were screwed again....GET OVER IT!!!:bawling:

Have another glass of Kool-Aid and don't spike it this time.. remember, it's 8 hours bottle to throttle...

 

[TheBigMan]

"All Support Employees"?

Then why is it that Flight Options Mangaement has attacked the pilot group since the vote in March 06 and not the other empolyee groups?

What flavor KOOL AID are you drinking?

8 hours or 8 feet!

Have another glass of Kool-Aid and don't spike it this time.. remember, it's 8 hours bottle to throttle...

 

[GerryG]

I don't kow who you think I am GerryG, but I was hired as an original RTA guy, now a FLOPPER.

I drive one of the Hawkers, my only office is in the pointy end of the aircraft.

Maybe you e-mailed me by mistake, maybe not, but whatever the case, you are sure making the point.

All is not well here.

Iron man,

I think you misread my post, I was talking about B19/Bob not you. As for e-mail, unless I pushed the wrong button, I don't think I've sent one to you. Either way I hope that clears it up.

 

[400pilot]

Have another glass of Kool-Aid and don't spike it this time.. remember, it's 8 hours bottle to throttle...

Well now, that was an intelligent response.....

Classic technique though.....

 

[GerryG]

I don't know about the internal workings of Options but I do understand the industry, and that’s the most egotistical and disrespectful thing you could possibly write as a pilot.

Pilots are not the only ones with an earned certificate that has paid their dues building their experience. If the clerk doesn’t pay the fuel bill, you don’t get fuel and pilots don’t fly. If the fueler doesn’t fuel the airplane, pilots don’t fly. If the mechanic doesn’t repair and sign off the airplane as airworthy, pilots don’t fly. In 121, a dispatcher doesn’t do the flight release, pilots don’t fly. If management doesn’t work finances of the airline every day, then the airline doesn’t fly. If marketing doesn’t bring new customers and sales doesn’t sell airplanes, pilots don’t fly. Every single job at an air carrier is equally important, yet it is nearly always the pilot’s union that throws the wrench into an otherwise perfectly good company and places the carrier at financial risk.

There are rare exceptions such as at Eastern where the primary issue was with the mechanics, but when was the last time you heard of a dispatcher’s union holding a work action preventing an airline from flying? Or a fueler, or ground support, or administrative or sales or marketing? They are all equally important and have a given responsibility to get the job done right to protect the pilots and passengers on each and every flight. Yet when the pilot’s union decides to hold the rest of the company hostage for what THEY believe is right, they forget that they are hurting all of those people that support them each and every flight. When the company is forced into bankruptcy or to take cuts elsewhere, it’s those support people that are hurt as well as the health of the company.

Yes, I’m former management, but it will always frost my butt that union leadership and those that drink the Kool-Aid and don’t have the ability to see the entire picture. The people they hurt are the exact people that protect there butts each and every day. I’m not saying that the wages and work rules don’t need to be fair for pilots because in the non-union airline I work they are. What union leadership considers FAIR for pilots means there WILL be a compromise for the rest of the company to stay financially solvent and get the job done in the best manner for all involved. The money is better spent on doing the best for the entire company, not just the pilots, to provide the best infrastructure possible to protect those people that are in the airplanes everyday. In return, the company stays healthy and everybody’s job is secure.


I haven't lost my perspective, I understand the big picture. After what you wrote, it's clear that you don't.

EVERBODY IS NEEDED, NOT JUST PILOTS.​

I like my safe, dependable and secure non union company.

It's clear to me that you like your "safe, dependable" management position, where you get to bend your non-union pilots to your will on a daily basis, you sir have gone over to the dark side. If you were at one time a pilot, those days are long gone. I'm glad you are happy where you are, why not stay out of our business, remain there and revel in bliss? Why do you devote so much time to your efforts on this message board? If you have no stake in our fight at FLOPS why poke your nose into it? I have my suspicions...and so does everyone else who reads this message board.

 

[dime line]

Just know this, with this new vacation bid fiasco, I think planes will not move

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's clear to me that you like your "safe, dependable" management position, where you get to bend your non-union pilots to your will on a daily basis, you sir have gone over to the dark side. If you were at one time a pilot, those days are long gone. I'm glad you are happy where you are, why not stay out of our business, remain there and revel in bliss? Why do you devote so much time to your efforts on this message board? If you have no stake in our fight at FLOPS why poke your nose into it? I have my suspicions...and so does everyone else who reads this message board.

My original interest is actually with another fractional that I consulted for during a short period of time after my last layoff from a union action. Currently, I'm back in 121 operations in a non-management position enjoying my career without the pall of a union hanging over my career.

I do however know that this forum is read by all fractional pilots. I admire the fractional model and was involved long enough to see that unions want to tear apart this industry also. Where there is a buck to be made, you can guarranty a union is there with it's greedy hands. As a result, I know that my opinions are read by all. not just those at FLOPS but those I've become friends with also that work elsewhere. This is where the conversation currently is. As there are very few that dare post against unions, I enjoy bringing the other side of the truth, the one that pilots never get to see from their side unless they have the courage to walk in the shoes of management.

I'm confident that doesn't answer your question, but it's the best I can do on short notice.

 

[1po'dpilot]

I'm not Bob, whoever the heck that is.... but I don't and never have believed that unions help any company do anything except bring it hardship.

If you dont answer to "Bob" anymore, does that mean you answer to SCAB now? Try walking in the shoes of a pilot and come out from the management desk you're hiding under.

 

[Phoenix]

Have another glass of Kool-Aid and don't spike it this time.. remember, it's 8 hours bottle to throttle...

[FONT=&quot]Another glass of Kool-Aid, now that is rich coming from you. And your lack of reasonable rebuttal was predictable.[/FONT]

 

[Ben Dover FLOPS]

Have another glass of Kool-Aid and don't spike it this time.. remember, it's 8 hours bottle to throttle...

Nice, well thought out, rebuttal. You really put some thought into that one, d0uchebag.

 

[fischman]

I didn't become anti-union until I got repeatedly screwed over by unions that I wasn't even a part of. I have yet to see where ANY union, especially in aviation, has made any carrier stronger. All I've seen is repeated failures by union leadership to support anything but their own membership at the expense of all the non-union workers and the overall health of the carrier. This cost to support the union takes away from infrastructure and the ability to retain talented employees that allow the carrier to run smoothly. In reality, when pilots complain because "management can't do anything right" it is usually because the funds required to provide support are going into the CBA instead of those employees that REALLY make things happen. Kicking me in the nuts does nothing more than provide proof that my employment by a non-union carrier is the best think I ever did for my career. Be careful what you ask for.

So you didn't notice a change at NetJets between 2005 and 2006? You don't think that 1108 had something to do with that? I'd like to hear your explanation on how management alone took an $80 million loss and turned it around into a $143 million profit. (I'll give you a hint. They didn't...)

You are the most DENSE person I have ever met.

 

[GerryG]

My original interest is actually with another fractional that I consulted for during a short period of time after my last layoff from a union action. Currently, I'm back in 121 operations in a non-management position enjoying my career without the pall of a union hanging over my career.

I do however know that this forum is read by all fractional pilots. I admire the fractional model and was involved long enough to see that unions want to tear apart this industry also. Where there is a buck to be made, you can guarranty a union is there with it's greedy hands. As a result, I know that my opinions are read by all. not just those at FLOPS but those I've become friends with also that work elsewhere. This is where the conversation currently is. As there are very few that dare post against unions, I enjoy bringing the other side of the truth, the one that pilots never get to see from their side unless they have the courage to walk in the shoes of management.

I'm confident that doesn't answer your question, but it's the best I can do on short notice.

That's hilarious, I'm egotistical? And yet you deem your opinions to be so important that all fractional pilots can benefit from hearing them? Wow.

I think in reality your are either 1) a paid union buster, plying his trade or, 2) a remorseless hack with mental health related delusions of grandeur.

Please spare us your hyperbole, I think its safe to say, we will find our way without your opinions, be they for-hire or otherwise.

You know I digress, to some extent now that I think about it. The truth loves a lighting rod to give it context. And when you consider that you personify the management perspective, lol, well lets just say I am not surprised you've had a journeyman's career.

 

[TurboHonda]

That's hilarious, I'm egotistical? And yet you deem your opinions to be so important that all fractional pilots can benefit from hearing them? Wow.

I think in reality your are either 1) a paid union buster, plying his trade or, 2) a remorseless hack with mental health related delusions of grandeur.

Please spare us your hyperbole, I think its safe to say, we will find our way without your opinions, be they for-hire or otherwise.

You know I digress, to some extent now that I think about it. The truth loves a lighting rod to give it context. And when you consider that you personify the management perspective, lol, well lets just say I am not surprised you've had a journeyman's career.

Ha Ha. Right. What he said. And get that pos BMW detailed, while you're at it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That's hilarious, I'm egotistical? And yet you deem your opinions to be so important that all fractional pilots can benefit from hearing them? Wow.

I think in reality your are either 1) a paid union buster, plying his trade or, 2) a remorseless hack with mental health related delusions of grandeur.

Please spare us your hyperbole, I think its safe to say, we will find our way without your opinions, be they for-hire or otherwise.

You know I digress, to some extent now that I think about it. The truth loves a lighting rod to give it context. And when you consider that you personify the management perspective, lol, well lets just say I am not surprised you've had a journeyman's career.

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical. My statements are geared specifically at those that have never been in a union and think that it's the answer because there is some other union member forcing Kool-aid down their throat. It's not. You guys in unions are stuck with them. Enjoy them right up until the bankruptcy or furloughs. Then you can continue to blame management because they weren't smart enough to be profitable when saddled with an unreasonable contract that they were forced into by union tactics.

The FLOPS guys voted the union in and are living in the predictable nightmare leading up to the first CBA and all the problems of implementation once there is a TA. As many as four or more years is normal. Handcuffing and threatening the company with a union isn't the answer, it ALWAYS creates pushback, you asked for it, you got it. Be careful what you ask for. Four years is a long time in this industry, and the economy of aviation can change on a dime. If there were more guys on these threads that took the time to point out some of the crap that unions have pulled to continue to educate those before they get into something that they can't get out of, I wouldn't bother. Every now and then others show up, then I become quiet as I'm not the only voice.

I'll never support a union, and busting a union isn't my game. To me, the only good union is one that stays off the property to begin with.

Those companies that don't have unions give safe haven for guys like me that have been continuously screwed over by unions. Thankfully there are still a lot of them out there. There is a lot to this industry that is behind the scenes, and I can tell you right up front from first hand experience that I've never been involved with a union that had anything in mind except to pillage the company for every last cent of profit the company has and placed the company at risk of safety and economic hardship.

I'm no more of a journeyman than any other aviation professional that was laid off due to a union action. It's part of the business unless you stay away from air carriers with unions. By going with a non-union carrier, my career is in my hands, because I'll be damned if anybody (especially a union) is going to speak for me.

 

[dime line]

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical. My statements are geared specifically at those that have never been in a union and think that it's the answer because there is some other union member forcing Kool-aid down their throat. It's not. You guys in unions are stuck with them. Enjoy them right up until the bankruptcy or furloughs. Then you can continue to blame management because they weren't smart enough to be profitable when saddled with an unreasonable contract that they were forced into by union tactics.

The FLOPS guys voted the union in and are living in the predictable nightmare leading up to the first CBA and all the problems of implementation once there is a TA. As many as four or more years is normal. Handcuffing and threatening the company with a union isn't the answer, it ALWAYS creates pushback, you asked for it, you got it. Be careful what you ask for. Four years is a long time in this industry, and the economy of aviation can change on a dime. If there were more guys on these threads that took the time to point out some of the crap that unions have pulled to continue to educate those before they get into something that they can't get out of, I wouldn't bother. Every now and then others show up, then I become quiet as I'm not the only voice.

I'll never support a union, and busting a union isn't my game. To me, the only good union is one that stays off the property to begin with.

Those companies that don't have unions give safe haven for guys like me that have been continuously screwed over by unions. Thankfully there are still a lot of them out there. There is a lot to this industry that is behind the scenes, and I can tell you right up front from first hand experience that I've never been involved with a union that had anything in mind except to pillage the company for every last cent of profit the company has and placed the company at risk of safety and economic hardship.

I'm no more of a journeyman than any other aviation professional that was laid off due to a union action. It's part of the business unless you stay away from air carriers with unions. By going with a non-union carrier, my career is in my hands, because I'll be damned if anybody (especially a union) is going to speak for me.

Thanks for the new bid policy you idiot. I cant wait to see the dispatch reliability now

 

[fischman]

Your statement about pilots being the most important employees in an air carrier is egotistical. My statements are geared specifically at those that have never been in a union and think that it's the answer because there is some other union member forcing Kool-aid down their throat. It's not. You guys in unions are stuck with them. Enjoy them right up until the bankruptcy or furloughs. Then you can continue to blame management because they weren't smart enough to be profitable when saddled with an unreasonable contract that they were forced into by union tactics.

The FLOPS guys voted the union in and are living in the predictable nightmare leading up to the first CBA and all the problems of implementation once there is a TA. As many as four or more years is normal. Handcuffing and threatening the company with a union isn't the answer, it ALWAYS creates pushback, you asked for it, you got it. Be careful what you ask for. Four years is a long time in this industry, and the economy of aviation can change on a dime. If there were more guys on these threads that took the time to point out some of the crap that unions have pulled to continue to educate those before they get into something that they can't get out of, I wouldn't bother. Every now and then others show up, then I become quiet as I'm not the only voice.

I'll never support a union, and busting a union isn't my game. To me, the only good union is one that stays off the property to begin with.

Those companies that don't have unions give safe haven for guys like me that have been continuously screwed over by unions. Thankfully there are still a lot of them out there. There is a lot to this industry that is behind the scenes, and I can tell you right up front from first hand experience that I've never been involved with a union that had anything in mind except to pillage the company for every last cent of profit the company has and placed the company at risk of safety and economic hardship.

I'm no more of a journeyman than any other aviation professional that was laid off due to a union action. It's part of the business unless you stay away from air carriers with unions. By going with a non-union carrier, my career is in my hands, because I'll be damned if anybody (especially a union) is going to speak for me.

yawn....uke: