Open Letter to B19

[Guitar Guy]

I don't get it? CEO's are making tons of money so that justifies deamonizing them? You do realize that you are deamonizing people for doing exactly what you want to do....make more money.

The issue is that some CEO's (and other company officers) exhibit deplorable behavior. In some cases, the behavior has even been illegal.

Making broad generalizations "unions are all evil" or conversely, "all unions are perfect" is as fundamentally flawed as saying that all management are somehow perfect. There are plenty of examples to illustrate.

 

[ksu_aviator]

The issue is that some CEO's (and other company officers) exhibit deplorable behavior. In some cases, the behavior has even been illegal.

Making broad generalizations "unions are all evil" or conversely, "all unions are perfect" is as fundamentally flawed as saying that all management are somehow perfect. There are plenty of examples to illustrate.

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general. Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

 

[dime line]

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general.

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise

.

Your paid not what you deserve, your paid what you negotiate......Nothing more....You will never get a raise with that thinking in aviation. All of us will recieve the bare minimum to get the job done, nothing more. Unions provide a contract, that is the end result right? CEOs have contracts too right? Seems like your trying to play the "devils advocate", fine, but all the anti-union folk really have no leg to stand on. Why is it so wrong to have a contract with your company, like the CEOs have? That is the basis for what a union stands for right?

 

[Hobbes]

I never generalized unions in that way. I did say that the natural tendency, due to internal pressure, is to exaggerate the current situation with in a company. That can not be denied. Happy employees don't vote to go on strike. Negotiations don't work with out the threat of action by either side.

Part of the reason I posted an argument contrary to the popular opinion was to illustrate the mob mentality that the preponderance of posters in this thread have exhibited. Case in point, I post that unions aren't perfect and CEO's aren't all evil and I get lumped into "part of the problem" almost immediately.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage. (Before you blast me on that, think about the I-Phone passengers that want to tell you the weather is fine)

Until some can get over those mentallities, unions will continue to be weak, in general. Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

The reason you are so quickly demonized KSU is that within this thread you are dealing with people who ARE under the thumb of exceedingly poor management, driving a company into the ground, while reaping every possible benefit themselves. A manager that has been here a SHORTER time than any line pilot, and has a track history of driving an aviation company into obliteration. Not ALL management is incompetent (ours IS) and not all unions are corrupt (ours is not.) I am sure in some other outfit there are good managers that care about their employees and in some outfits there are unions that over inflate the issues at hand. Let me assure you, our issues are not overinflated by our union. If anything, they issues we deal with are not even truly brought into context on this web, or even our own union board. Our union has a steadfast commitment that I witness regularly to only shine the light on what is truly necessary; they do not shoot from the hip at ever ripple in the pond.

I am sure you are a very intellectual individual, and I would welcome the opportunity to hear just what stake you have in this current issue which makes your presence in this thread make sense. If you have contrary views to where Flight Options should go, fine, you are entitled to your view, but WHY are you posting here? Are you flying a fractional jet?

I would pose the question that you might just be one of B19's many aliases...a practice none of us union supporters seems to deem ethical or necessary. In order to further his point, he had to fabricate other folks to keep the ball rolling. On the pro union side we have real issues we are trying to address within our own company, you know, the one that issues OUR paychecks, and the one that gives me good reason to be on this thread posting my opinions and ideas....

 

[bchjetdrvr]

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise. Hey Einstien, it's been years since the FLOPS pilots have been at those pathetic wages and years since the NJA folks have been making double for same job.

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job,

No that is NOT the problem. Let me school you on how that sentence was supposed to read.

What KSU meant to say -
"The real problem is a management that think they have an inherent right to make the pilots job & life hell. The real problem is a management that refuses to negotiate in good faith. The real problem is management conducting retaliation and condoning favoritism. The real problem is unfair salaries for the professional skill required."

So like Hobbs stated, you can't even fathom the attrocities that flops mang has/is committing. So much is not published here at FI it's staggering. So let's just throw some stuff out there for fun, shall we? Good---OK.

1. For years Flops pilots used to enjoy any domicile that was served by 3 airlines. Not anymore. A tier system that is a joke. Meant to choke off certain pilots at higher pay scales. Only to hire in fresh cheap meat into the new domicile and year one pay.
2. Health care turned self insured.
3. Schedulers putting crews in "crew-rot" at 5am with no plane, or co-pilot. Only to sit for 14 hours.
4. "Mistakenly" cancelling crew meals.
5. A new Canpass policy requiring pilots to have Canpasss (Not required at NJA hmmm) For years this wasn't required. Union voted in, now a new policy, hmmm. But if your a kool-aid drinking pilot and you can't get Canpass you're not asked to resign or go on LOA.
6. If your a Kool-aid drinker and run a perfectly good mu-300 off an icy short runway without T/r's you get to keep your job.
7. If you preflight too slowly you lose your job.
8. If you taxi back with un-ruly pax, you lose your job cause of "inconviencing the client"
9. If a kool-aid drinking pilot turns you in and accuses you of breaking an airplane without evidence, so you can write it up, you lose your job.
10. Kool-aid drinking pilots that fly from mountainous airports to the coast you get to keep their job.
11. If you like to suck in engine covers, you keep your job if you live on the pink juice.
12. If you taxi a plane into another plane but might be the type of pilot inclined to sue if fired over the incident, then you get to keep your job.
13. But be sure not to write a post on a private board that could be deamed "inciting". You'll be fired quick.
14. Management has spent untold thousands and thousands to Ford & Harrision the union busters instead of putting the money towards their pilots. Mang loves to step over $10 to pick up a $1.
15. Flops mang enjoys working the pilots on overtime and promises to pay them next year for services rendered.
16. Continous rise in health care premiums with Plans being reduced and/or taken away. Cost increase of premiums over 300%!! with benefits decreasing. Might have something to do with the company being self insured...hmmmm
17. Enjoy your assigned forced vacation time you spent years earning, by mang forcing it on you (excuse me) "assigning" it to you during the awesome months of March, Sept, April.
18. Flops mang enjoys paying commuter wages to pilots that fly around people that have incomes in the top 10% of the wealthiest people in America. Can you say What The F$CK OVER!
19. Flops SIC's upgrading after 5yrs enjoy a ZERO $$ pay raise. SIC 5 yr pay is equal to 1st year captain. It's called SLIDE TO POVERTY.
20. Over a year and half since the 1108 voted in and they aren't even close to a contract. Mang is stalling stalling stalling stalling. Nice company to work for, they really care about the pilots and company and want to move forward.

So to all the nay sayers out there...Would you want to be treated this way? Do you want to be paid these wages for that amount of work done? (8 days on. Maybe 7 off with the new rules) for that amount of service provided, knowdledge, training, experience and skill required!?

A f%cking doctor isn't required to stay on his "A" game like a pilot is every 6 months. Yet toll booth collectors are making more, valet freaking parkers in Vegas make more then FLOPS pilots. Line guys moving bags from the ground to the trunk make more. So KSU - the pilots don't "have work harder to prove they deserve a pay raise" They've been doing it for years! They deserve years of back pay for service already proven worthy of higher salaries!

-Sorry I sugar coated it.

 

[fischman]

I don't get it? CEO's are making tons of money so that justifies deamonizing them? You do realize that you are deamonizing people for doing exactly what you want to do....make more money.

There is a difference between $hitting on a gold toilet and making a respectable wage. FLOPS pilots are from from either.

I suggest you learn what you are talking about before you type it "purple puzzy"

 

[B19 Flyer]

IATA statement on unions and the industry turnaround

Your paid not what you deserve, your paid what you negotiate......Nothing more....You will never get a raise with that thinking in aviation. All of us will recieve the bare minimum to get the job done, nothing more. Unions provide a contract, that is the end result right? CEOs have contracts too right? Seems like your trying to play the "devils advocate", fine, but all the anti-union folk really have no leg to stand on. Why is it so wrong to have a contract with your company, like the CEOs have? That is the basis for what a union stands for right?

Even IATA feels that organized labor is one of the two top issues that could place the industry at risk in 2008. This is the opinion of IATA, not me. (but boy, do I agree with it!) And remember, IATA is worldwide, not just here in the US.
_______________________

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINN2847835920071128

Labor, credit woes weigh on airlines - IATA exec


Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:16pm EST

WASHINGTON, Nov 28 (Reuters) - The financial turnaround at airlines, especially in the United States, would be at risk in 2008 if unions were too aggressive in trying to recoup wages and benefits lost in restructuring, the chief of the industry's leading trade group said.

"Unfortunately, as the industry shows even fragile profitability, labor starts to look for a free lunch. Already we've seen strikes from France to Japan," Giovanni Bisignani of the International Air Transport Association told an industry group on Wednesday.
"Several key U.S. contracts will be negotiated next year -- if labor pursues an agenda as an irresponsible adversary, our common future is limited," Bisignani said.

Globally, labor represents 23 percent of airline costs, down 5 percentage points from 2001 -- the start of a six-year restructuring accelerated by the Al Qaeda hijack attacks on New York and Washington.
During that period four U.S. carriers, United Airlines parent UAL Corp (UAUA.O: Quote, Profile, Research), US Airways Group Inc (LCC.N: Quote, Profile, Research), Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Northwest Airlines Corp (NWA.N: Quote, Profile, Research), fell into bankruptcy and AMR Corp (AMR.N: Quote, Profile, Research), parent of U.S. leader American Airlines, nearly sought protection from creditors.
Bisignani also worries that U.S. carriers could have a hard time upgrading their aging fleets due to general economic uncertainty and continuing credit woes where debt remains high relative to cash flow.
"Lenders will be cautious and even if orders are placed today, production lines at Boeing (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Airbus (EAD.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) are virtually full for the next three years," Bisignani said.
About a third of the U.S. fleet is more than 25 years old, reducing the cost advantages of depreciation and heightening the impact of fuel costs since older jets are less efficient than the newest models.
IATA is poised next month to revise the industry's outlook to account for oil prices now pushing $100 per barrel. In September, the group projected 2008 profits of $7.8 billion, but the forecast was based on oil at just under $70 a barrel.
International carriers, especially in Europe, worry about U.S. credit market turmoil because of the potential impact on financing conditions and corporate travel. Premium travelers -- usually business customers -- account for 25 percent of traffic aboard the top-five European airlines on transatlantic flights, compared with 15 percent for the leading U.S. carriers, IATA figures show.
"That translates into a 30 percent yield premium for Europe," Bisignani said. (Reporting by John Crawley; Editing by Braden Reddall)

 

[FLYLOW22]

Even IATA feels that organized labor is one of the two top issues that could place the industry at risk in 2008. This is the opinion of IATA, not me. (but boy, do I agree with it!) And remember, IATA is worldwide, not just here in the US.
_______________________

Yes! Management IS greedy worldwide. YES! Corporate greed comes before labor at MANY companies worldwide.

B19 = Ignorant of the many positive results of Company/Union interaction and cooperation. Very ignorant. Most of the industry is a poor example though.

 

[Guitar Guy]

B19 - you do realize that IATA is a lobbying group for airline management, right?

 

[Guitar Guy]

The real problem is people that think they have an inherent right to a job, that the successful should forefit their earnings and that they (as a peon) know better than those trained to manage.

And yet some of those who are "trained to manage" are not good managers or leaders. Note the use of the word "some". Incompetence shouldn't be tolerated in the cockpit or the boardroom.

Try working harder and proving that you deserve a raise.

Ah, the carrot-on-the-stick approach. Someone else has already responded that one get what one negotiate. I'd also add that having worked under the merit-based compensation system in a previous career, that it's not without its abuses, sometimes rewarding the brown-noser and not the hard-worker.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19 - you do realize that IATA is a lobbying group for airline management, right?

Now I'm trying to justify the mission of IATA. My head hurts.

_________________

http://www.iata.org/about/mission



IATA at the Air Transport Industry's side

Air transport is one of the most dynamic industries in the world. The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is its global trade organisation.
Over 60 years, IATA has developed the commercial standards that built a global industry. Today, IATA’s mission is to represent, lead and serve the airline industry. Its members comprise over 240 airlines - the world’s leading passenger and cargo airlines among them - representing 94 percent of scheduled international air traffic.
Representing…

IATA seeks to improve understanding of the industry among decision makers and increase awareness of the benefits that aviation brings to national and global economies. It fights for the interests of airlines across the globe, challenging unreasonable rules and charges, holding regulators and governments to account, and striving for sensible regulation.
Leading…

IATA’s aim is to help airlines help themselves by simplifying processes and increasing passenger convenience while reducing costs and improving efficiency. The groundbreaking Simplifying the Business initiative is crucial in this area. Moreover, safety is IATA’s number one priority, and IATA’s goal is to continually improve safety standards, notably through IATA’s Operational Safety Audit (IOSA). Another main concern is to minimise the impact of air transport on environment.
Serving…

IATA ensures that people and goods can move around the global airline network as easily as if they were on a single airline in a single country. In addition, it provides essential professional support to all industry stakeholders with a wide range of products and expert services, such as publications, training and consulting. IATA’s financial systems also help carriers and the travel industry maximise revenues.
… For the benefit for all parties involved:

· For consumers, IATA simplifies the travel and shipping processes, while keeping costs down. Passengers can make one telephone call to reserve a ticket, pay in one currency and then use the ticket on several airlines in several countries.
· IATA allows airlines to operate safely, securely, efficiently and economically under clearly defined rules.
· IATA serves as an intermediary between airlines and passenger as well as cargo agents via neutrally applied agency service standards and centralised financial systems.
· A large network of industry suppliers and service providers gathered by IATA provides solid expertise to airlines in a variety of industry solutions.
· For governments, IATA seeks to ensure they are well informed about the complexities of the aviation industry to ensure better, long-term decisions.

</SPAN></SPAN>

 

[Hobbes]

It must be too hard to switch back and forth between FI accounts on the same day...so one day he is B19 and the next he is KSU Aviator....or maybe he isn't KSU Aviator, but he at least admits he has no credibility and must use aliases to further his arguments.

Whatever.

FUD flinger.

Where do you work?

 

[B19 Flyer]

It must be too hard to switch back and forth between FI accounts on the same day...so one day he is B19 and the next he is KSU Aviator....or maybe he isn't KSU Aviator, but he at least admits he has no credibility and must use aliases to further his arguments.

Whatever.

FUD flinger.

Where do you work?

I explained I am nothing but credible, you and the others choose not to listen.

www.unionfacts.com

 

[Guitar Guy]

Now I'm trying to justify the mission of IATA. My head hurts.

_________________

http://www.iata.org/about/mission



IATA at the Air Transport Industry's side

Air transport is one of the most dynamic industries in the world. The International Air Transport Association (IATA) is its global trade organisation.
Over 60 years, IATA has developed the commercial standards that built a global industry. Today, IATA’s mission is to represent, lead and serve the airline industry. Its members comprise over 240 airlines - the world’s leading passenger and cargo airlines among them - representing 94 percent of scheduled international air traffic.
Representing…

IATA seeks to improve understanding of the industry among decision makers and increase awareness of the benefits that aviation brings to national and global economies. It fights for the interests of airlines across the globe, challenging unreasonable rules and charges, holding regulators and governments to account, and striving for sensible regulation.
Leading…

IATA’s aim is to help airlines help themselves by simplifying processes and increasing passenger convenience while reducing costs and improving efficiency. The groundbreaking Simplifying the Business initiative is crucial in this area. Moreover, safety is IATA’s number one priority, and IATA’s goal is to continually improve safety standards, notably through IATA’s Operational Safety Audit (IOSA). Another main concern is to minimise the impact of air transport on environment.
Serving…

IATA ensures that people and goods can move around the global airline network as easily as if they were on a single airline in a single country. In addition, it provides essential professional support to all industry stakeholders with a wide range of products and expert services, such as publications, training and consulting. IATA’s financial systems also help carriers and the travel industry maximise revenues.
… For the benefit for all parties involved:

· For consumers, IATA simplifies the travel and shipping processes, while keeping costs down. Passengers can make one telephone call to reserve a ticket, pay in one currency and then use the ticket on several airlines in several countries.
· IATA allows airlines to operate safely, securely, efficiently and economically under clearly defined rules.
· IATA serves as an intermediary between airlines and passenger as well as cargo agents via neutrally applied agency service standards and centralised financial systems.
· A large network of industry suppliers and service providers gathered by IATA provides solid expertise to airlines in a variety of industry solutions.
· For governments, IATA seeks to ensure they are well informed about the complexities of the aviation industry to ensure better, long-term decisions.

</SPAN></SPAN>

And you proved my point - thank you.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Your paid not what you deserve, your paid what you negotiate......

Yes, you get paid what you negotiate and you can negotiate for more if you are worth more.

 

[ksu_aviator]

No that is NOT the problem. Let me school you on how that sentence was supposed to read.

What KSU meant to say -
"The real problem is a management that think they have an inherent right to make the pilots job & life hell. The real problem is a management that refuses to negotiate in good faith. The real problem is management conducting retaliation and condoning favoritism. The real problem is unfair salaries for the professional skill required."

So like Hobbs stated, you can't even fathom the attrocities that flops mang has/is committing. So much is not published here at FI it's staggering. So let's just throw some stuff out there for fun, shall we? Good---OK.

1. For years Flops pilots used to enjoy any domicile that was served by 3 airlines. Not anymore. A tier system that is a joke. Meant to choke off certain pilots at higher pay scales. Only to hire in fresh cheap meat into the new domicile and year one pay.
2. Health care turned self insured.
3. Schedulers putting crews in "crew-rot" at 5am with no plane, or co-pilot. Only to sit for 14 hours.
4. "Mistakenly" cancelling crew meals.
5. A new Canpass policy requiring pilots to have Canpasss (Not required at NJA hmmm) For years this wasn't required. Union voted in, now a new policy, hmmm. But if your a kool-aid drinking pilot and you can't get Canpass you're not asked to resign or go on LOA.
6. If your a Kool-aid drinker and run a perfectly good mu-300 off an icy short runway without T/r's you get to keep your job.
7. If you preflight too slowly you lose your job.
8. If you taxi back with un-ruly pax, you lose your job cause of "inconviencing the client"
9. If a kool-aid drinking pilot turns you in and accuses you of breaking an airplane without evidence, so you can write it up, you lose your job.
10. Kool-aid drinking pilots that fly from mountainous airports to the coast you get to keep their job.
11. If you like to suck in engine covers, you keep your job if you live on the pink juice.
12. If you taxi a plane into another plane but might be the type of pilot inclined to sue if fired over the incident, then you get to keep your job.
13. But be sure not to write a post on a private board that could be deamed "inciting". You'll be fired quick.
14. Management has spent untold thousands and thousands to Ford & Harrision the union busters instead of putting the money towards their pilots. Mang loves to step over $10 to pick up a $1.
15. Flops mang enjoys working the pilots on overtime and promises to pay them next year for services rendered.
16. Continous rise in health care premiums with Plans being reduced and/or taken away. Cost increase of premiums over 300%!! with benefits decreasing. Might have something to do with the company being self insured...hmmmm
17. Enjoy your assigned forced vacation time you spent years earning, by mang forcing it on you (excuse me) "assigning" it to you during the awesome months of March, Sept, April.
18. Flops mang enjoys paying commuter wages to pilots that fly around people that have incomes in the top 10% of the wealthiest people in America. Can you say What The F$CK OVER!
19. Flops SIC's upgrading after 5yrs enjoy a ZERO $$ pay raise. SIC 5 yr pay is equal to 1st year captain. It's called SLIDE TO POVERTY.
20. Over a year and half since the 1108 voted in and they aren't even close to a contract. Mang is stalling stalling stalling stalling. Nice company to work for, they really care about the pilots and company and want to move forward.

So to all the nay sayers out there...Would you want to be treated this way? Do you want to be paid these wages for that amount of work done? (8 days on. Maybe 7 off with the new rules) for that amount of service provided, knowdledge, training, experience and skill required!?

A f%cking doctor isn't required to stay on his "A" game like a pilot is every 6 months. Yet toll booth collectors are making more, valet freaking parkers in Vegas make more then FLOPS pilots. Line guys moving bags from the ground to the trunk make more. So KSU - the pilots don't "have work harder to prove they deserve a pay raise" They've been doing it for years! They deserve years of back pay for service already proven worthy of higher salaries!

-Sorry I sugar coated it.

Why are you acting like a thug? Did I ever say Flight Options is a great place to work? Did I ever say that unions where never needed? I didn't say that. But you went a long ways towards proving my point.

Some of your gripes sound a lot like a 5 year old that had his candy stolen at school. Grow up. Ya, Options sucks. However, enough of that pilot group has come on this board (and others), and acted the way you just did, that certain companies (Flex for one) that don't want anything to do with an Options pilot. So tone it down. Don't act like a cry baby.

BTW, a point of fact, Doctors do have a type of recurrent training. You don't really think the government would let them go to school once and never again do you?

 

[ksu_aviator]

And yet some of those who are "trained to manage" are not good managers or leaders. Note the use of the word "some". Incompetence shouldn't be tolerated in the cockpit or the boardroom.

I completely agree, but if you have a bad pilot do you let a flight attendant fly the airplane? No. So if you are a pilot, does that qualify you to take over the management side of the company? No.

Ah, the carrot-on-the-stick approach. Someone else has already responded that one get what one negotiate. I'd also add that having worked under the merit-based compensation system in a previous career, that it's not without its abuses, sometimes rewarding the brown-noser and not the hard-worker.

I just addressed this, but it is worth saying again, you can better negotiate if you are a better asset.

 

[ksu_aviator]

It must be too hard to switch back and forth between FI accounts on the same day...so one day he is B19 and the next he is KSU Aviator....or maybe he isn't KSU Aviator, but he at least admits he has no credibility and must use aliases to further his arguments.

Whatever.

FUD flinger.

Where do you work?

Over compensating for something, are we?

Ok, ok, you got me. I might as well come clean. I am Dick Cheney and I'm having a hard time with this logging in and out thing. You know how my heart is, well my brain just isn't getting the blood flow it use to. Tomorrow, Karl Rove is going to help me plant a virus on your computer that will subliminally hypnotise you to become gay, just like we did with that trouble making Senator from MN.



Gosh, it feels so good to get that off of my chest. imp:

 

[Hobbes]

I don't care if I don't agree with your point of view, that was one funny damn post. (KSU that is)

As far as B19,

paraphrasing, "I have already told you, I am nothing if not credible."

Yeah, thanks for reaffirming that. Fud Flinger - time to kill the Wabbits....

 

[Guitar Guy]

I just addressed this, but it is worth saying again, you can better negotiate if you are a better asset.

I think that would apply to what NJA management has learned by working with 1108 for the betterment of the company and the pilots.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

Why are you acting like a thug? Did I ever say Flight Options is a great place to work? Did I ever say that unions where never needed? I didn't say that. But you went a long ways towards proving my point.

Some of your gripes sound a lot like a 5 year old that had his candy stolen at school. Grow up. Ya, Options sucks. However, enough of that pilot group has come on this board (and others), and acted the way you just did, that certain companies (Flex for one) that don't want anything to do with an Options pilot. So tone it down. Don't act like a cry baby.

BTW, a point of fact, Doctors do have a type of recurrent training. You don't really think the government would let them go to school once and never again do you?

KSU,


Now I know your managament. Better lay off the cool-aid a little. So which are my gripes sounding like a 5 yr old. Would like to know where you draw the line on managements behavior.

Better lay off the cool-aid a little. So you say that complaining about those issues (Illegal behavior, pilot duty time abuse, increase medical costs with decrease in benefits, favortism of incompetent pilots, pencil whipping mx, lowest paid wages, stalling contract negotiations, lowered qol on the road, random pilot firings - is in your eyes acting like a 5 yr old?

Sure would hate to see what you think are valid arguable points.

PS- Get your facts straight before you open the hole again.

http://www.psychlaws.org/GeneralResources/article12.htm

""Critics say the current system of continuing medical education, or CME, is not enforced rigorously enough to keep doctors up to date. Moreover, they say, doctors are not continually required to demonstrate their competence.
"Everyone assumes that we're regularly tested, and that's just not true. There is more regulation of plumbers in the U.S. than psychiatrists," said Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, a research psychiatrist and president of the Treatment Advocacy Center in Arlington.""

---------------

Many different type of doctors aren't required to do much after they are licensed. Varies state to state.

Who's running the show with pilot currency - oh yeah the FEDS.

"If doctors pass their initial exam and continue paying their dues, they're licensed for life."

 

[B19 Flyer]

Better lay off the cool-aid a little. So you say that complaining about those issues (Illegal behavior, pilot duty time abuse, increase medical costs with decrease in benefits, favortism of incompetent pilots, pencil whipping mx, lowest paid wages, stalling contract negotiations, lowered qol on the road, random pilot firings - is in your eyes acting like a 5 yr old?

Absolutely.

"Illegal behavior, pilot duty time abuse" is subjective to your own personal opinion because it needs to be documented. If it's true, then the feds will identify it. Same with the pencil whipping of mx. You think it's true, identify it and report it to the feds. My guess is that it's subjective and there really isn't anything wrong with it.

As long as your 66% chose to be represented, then your union MUST have informed you that it's highly unlikely ANY changes to wages or benefits would be made while a CBA was being negotiated. Get over it and accept it as part of the process. All of you could be looking at another couple of years of it. There is no stalling. It's a classic part of negotiations that the union is looking for unreasonable demands.

You asked for it and you got it. Live with it and stop whining about it. Your right to whine ended when you agreed to put the union on the property. From that point on, the union is the hired gun to negotiate for you. Let's just hope for your sake that your union does a better job than Boros did for A-Rod. If they don't, then treat the union like A-Rod treated Boros and get rid of them.


www.unionfacts.com

 

[bchjetdrvr]

You and KSU must have one of those double ended................................drinking straws that you both share the pink juice from.

Same question to you, B1.9" Many here would like to know where you draw the line on managements behavior? You and KSU seem to condon those activities by your responses. Everything you write seems to imply all is well at FLOPS, that management is the golden child, that the pilots don't have any reason to gripe.

Here's another flat out fair question both of you will dodge. FLOPS pilots salaries - Just fine in your ultimate wisdom? Are they over paid, underpaid or just right for industry standards and job requirements?

You state that the CBA denies any changes to the pilot salaries while in negotations. Yet the company constantly changes SOP guidlines to their advantage and abuse. That's mang for you. They love and hate that these negotations are going on all at the same time. It locks in the salaries but love to f--k over the pilots with changing rules and sop's. Yet they(mang) really know they will lose in the end.

PS- What fantasy land do you live in to think the Feds miracously just come in, observe, catch and punish companies envolved in these activities?

You may now go back to sipping the juice.

 

[ksu_aviator]

PS- Get your facts straight before you open the hole again.

http://www.psychlaws.org/GeneralResources/article12.htm

""Critics say the current system of continuing medical education, or CME, is not enforced rigorously enough to keep doctors up to date. Moreover, they say, doctors are not continually required to demonstrate their competence.
"Everyone assumes that we're regularly tested, and that's just not true. There is more regulation of plumbers in the U.S. than psychiatrists," said Dr. E. Fuller Torrey, a research psychiatrist and president of the Treatment Advocacy Center in Arlington.""

Try getting your facts straight, this is straight from California Regulations:

BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE
SECTION 2190-2196.5


2190. In order to insure the continuing competence of licensedphysicians and surgeons the Division of Licensing shall adopt andadminister standards for the continuing education of such licensees.The division shall require each licensed physician and surgeon todemonstrate satisfaction of the continuing education requirements atintervals of not less than four nor more than six years.

 

[ksu_aviator]

You and KSU must have one of those double ended................................drinking straws that you both share the pink juice from.

Same question to you, B1.9" Many here would like to know where you draw the line on managements behavior? You and KSU seem to condon those activities by your responses. Everything you write seems to imply all is well at FLOPS, that management is the golden child, that the pilots don't have any reason to gripe.

Here's another flat out fair question both of you will dodge. FLOPS pilots salaries - Just fine in your ultimate wisdom? Are they over paid, underpaid or just right for industry standards and job requirements?

You state that the CBA denies any changes to the pilot salaries while in negotations. Yet the company constantly changes SOP guidlines to their advantage and abuse. That's mang for you. They love and hate that these negotations are going on all at the same time. It locks in the salaries but love to f--k over the pilots with changing rules and sop's. Yet they(mang) really know they will lose in the end.

PS- What fantasy land do you live in to think the Feds miracously just come in, observe, catch and punish companies envolved in these activities?

You may now go back to sipping the juice.

You obviously don't realize it, so I'll let you know...with every post you reaffirm everything negative I said about unions. You also continue to ignore the whole of my posts and focus on the parts you wish to bash. In your mind, unless I drink the union Kool-Aid, I'm a management whore. Call me a Kool-Aid drinker if you want, but the only Kool-Aid drinker here is you.

I'm not at Flight Ops because I never applied because I didn't like what I've heard about that job. Does that answer your question? Yes, Flight Ops needs a union, it is a bad place to work. But you don't care that I said that, and you'll still post your weak and cry baby excuses and make all of the pilot group look bad and continue to reinforce the opions that HR departments like FlexJet have and disqualify anyone you work with from getting a better job. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

 

[realityman]

KSU, what's your deal? I've read and re-read bchjetdrvr's posts, and nowhere do I see any crying like a 5-year-old.
He posts some very legitimate problems. Prior to our union becoming so strong at NJA, I too witnessed 'kool-aid' drinking pilots receive passes on things that 'non-kool-aid drinkers' would be fired over.

Absolutely everything he stated is true, including management refusing to negotiate in good faith. How can I be so sure? Because we had almost the exact same thing happening over here prior to 2005.

B19, you're kidding, right? Just send the gripes in to the FAA and everything will be fixed? Yeah. That happens every day. NOT!!! Whistleblowers have been traditionally persecuted by the company they work for, and government response to said whistleblowers can be described as mind-numbingly slow, at best. Maybe you need to do a reality check.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

You obviously don't realize it, so I'll let you know...with every post you reaffirm everything negative I said about unions. Really? So it was the Unions that caused the ********************ty environment at flops for the pilots. (insert sarcasm here -->) Obviously since they have control over all those things. You also continue to ignore the whole of my posts and focus on the parts you wish to bash. In your mind, unless I drink the union Kool-Aid, I'm a management whore. Call me a Kool-Aid drinker if you want, but the only Kool-Aid drinker here is you.

I'm not at Flight Ops because I never applied because I didn't like what I've heard about that job. (Who could blame you. If mang had stepped up in the first place they wouldn't be where they are today) Does that answer your question? (Um -NO You dodged my question from the previous post. What are the 5yr old gripes I posted? Where do you draw the line at Mang behavior? FO pilots paid fairly, treated fairly? Yes, Flight Ops needs a union, it is a bad place to work. (Once again, mangs fault) But you don't care that I said that, and you'll still post your weak and cry baby excuses and make all of the pilot group look bad and continue to reinforce the opions that HR departments like FlexJet have and disqualify anyone you work with from getting a better job. (When the hell did I ever mention HR or Flex??) You made your bed, now you have to lie in it.

He dodges left----he dodges right----he shoots-------ah misses

 

[FLYLOW22]

Absolutely.

"Illegal behavior, pilot duty time abuse" is subjective to your own personal opinion because it needs to be documented. If it's true, then the feds will identify it. Same with the pencil whipping of mx. You think it's true, identify it and report it to the feds. My guess is that it's subjective and there really isn't anything wrong with it.

As long as your 66% chose to be represented, then your union MUST have informed you that it's highly unlikely ANY changes to wages or benefits would be made while a CBA was being negotiated. Get over it and accept it as part of the process. All of you could be looking at another couple of years of it. There is no stalling. It's a classic part of negotiations that the union is looking for unreasonable demands.

You asked for it and you got it. Live with it and stop whining about it. Your right to whine ended when you agreed to put the union on the property. From that point on, the union is the hired gun to negotiate for you. Let's just hope for your sake that your union does a better job than Boros did for A-Rod. If they don't, then treat the union like A-Rod treated Boros and get rid of them.


www.union"facts".com

Regarding the website...

I wouldn't call these Union facts at all. More likely it is a website based on a political adgenda from a Ford and Harrison-type operator.

I could go out and find a website to back up a pro-Union stance. Oh, I dunno... how about www.ibt1108.com. Man, that was hard.

Your site makes broad assumtions that ALL Unions are created equally. They are not... that is a fact. Most are pretty satisfied with the level of leadership and representaion that we have here at NJA. NJA Management agrees.

I'm not sure how your website addresses that fact.
As far as pay and working condidtions being changed DURING negotiations... it's illegal. FLOPS management tried it though. Section 6 Negotiations are about the whole enchilada... not addressing pay only. Citation Shares and Flex management have been able to bribe their pilots to varying degrees with that technique each time NJA pilots raised the bar. It will happen again soon.

Regarding "unrealistic demands" by the Union at the table. You CLEARLY do not understand the process of Section 6.

Regarding your feable attempt at giving FLOPS pilots buyers remorse... No Company EVER gets a Unionized work force that doesn't need/deserve it. The "company" had plenty of chances to make right on taking care of it's employees up until the vote to Unionize was initiated. FLOPS is no innocent angel. Yes, they made their choice and yes, it takes time to get results. In the meantime, the "company" is doing absolutely lousy and profits (if any) will reflect that. So how important is "the fight"? Only the company will be able to tell.... usually the BOD determines how much they are willing the fritter away in a labor dispute.

You CLEARLY do not understand the process of Section 6. Section 6 dictates that each side come to the table with equally unrealistic demands in the hoes that they are widdled down to the core issues through "negotiations". I can assure you that the negotiators working on behalf of the FLOPS pilot group are no more off center with their bagaining position than the Company is. Over time, as each side is affected by each others bargaining efforts, an accord is eventually reached. Hopefully, it is an accord that both sides can live with. Maybe not... that's Section 6.

The bargaining unit that I referenced is made up of 3 differnt entities: The Negotiating Committee, the pilot group, and Strike Prep.

All three take turns influencing the company.

The company bargaining unit is made up of: Ford and Harrison (thug legal council), the company Negotiating Committee and Their version of Baghdad Bob (BS Artist with a pager).

The process is painful to both sides. Owners are caught in the middle. Hostages are taken. Time and profits are forever wasted/lost.

It's a choice that both sides have made.

There is another way but it involves a deeply rooted desire to come to an accord without Section 6; IBB.

FLOPS management isn't mature enough for this approach yet (if ever).

Until a deal is reached, the house is on fire. It MAY be saved at this point... sho knows. While both sides are fighting, however, one thing is certain; nobody is putting out the fire.

 

[fischman]

In the meantime, the "company" is doing absolutely lousy and profits (if any) will reflect that.

I heard FLOPS lost +$90 million last quarter. Consider that NetJets owns 70% of the market share and our worst quarter in history showed a loss of $88 million. I would say that FLOPS is not only losing money, they are HEMORRHAGING cash out of all orifices.

Safe flying over there brothers and sisters. Good luck.

 

[dime line]

I heard FLOPS lost +$90 million last quarter. Consider that NetJets owns 70% of the market share and our worst quarter in history showed a loss of $88 million. I would say that FLOPS is not only losing money, they are HEMORRHAGING cash out of all orifices.

Safe flying over there brothers and sisters. Good luck.

And Where did you "hear" this tidbit of info?