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Ole Gardner checking up on Flight Options

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TheBigMan

Active member
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Posts
42
KNOCK, KNOCK, WHO'S THERE?
Hello everybody. Its me, the 'ole Gardner's, here. Lately I been spendin' most of my free time over at the big airlines Boy, do they have 'emselves some real problems. Every times I looks up in the sky and sees one of them magnificent flyin' machines zing by I am thrilled to the bottom of my britches. I knows just how much schoolin' it takes to keep them things up there. I'll never be able to do it—I can hardly keep my trusty tractor from tippin' over as I bump along over the clumps in the fields. If y'all knows anythin' at all 'bout me, then y'all knows I just hates to see the good folks who flys them airplanes treated badly. That's why I likes helpin' the guys and gals in the front of them big shiny birds.
Nots too long ago, I finds out that some of the rich folks who once flew on the big airliners now use small "business" jets to flit willy-nilly 'round the country. Sort of caught my attention, don't y'know. Mind you—I'll never have 'nough spendin' money to fly in one of these high-priced machines, but I begins to wonder who does. Seems like there are lots of these rich folks in the good 'ole U.S. of A.—movie stars, businessmen and women, sports heros, politicians and the like—not exactly the kind of folks that lives in my neck of the woods.
But, these folks is smart. I guess that's how some of 'em gots to be so rich. Y'know, they figured out it costs lots of money to own a jet plane, even a small one, so they joined up with a bunch of other rich folks just like 'emselves and they shares these expensive things. Sort of like the co-op back home where we shares harvesters, grain elevators and the like. What a great idea.
These airplane share outfits, they calls 'emselves "fractional jet operators." The biggest one goes by the name "NetJets." I finds out there's several other such co-ops around Y'all probably already knows all this stuff—but me, I don't know too much 'bout these outfits. In fact, like most folks 'round these parts where I lives, I didn't even know these kinds of high-flyin' limo services were even in business. They wants to keep things kinda' quiet, don't y'know. With all the folks in this great country goin' hungry and homeless, I guess they don't want too many people knowin' just how much money is being spent on such lavishness and who's doin' all that spendin'.
Anyways, I begin to thinkin' 'bout how much fun it must be to pilot one of these little jets. Hey, you gets to hob-knob with the movers and shakers in this great country of ours while you takes 'em to exotic places. I figured, since the folks that use these little jets are so rich, the pilots that keep 'em safe must be doin' OK. Well, they're doin' very well at NetJets—damn well, in fact! Sort of puts some of the flyin' jobs at the big airlines to shame. But, the folks that flys for another one of these outfits that calls itself "Flight Options" have a different tale to tell.
As fate would have it, one day a stranger came into the 'ole country store back home to get some supplies. Seems he was a pilot for this here Flight Options outfit. There was a bunch of us locals hangin' 'round the pot-bellied stove that day and this pilot starts tellin' us just how badly he and his crewmates are treated back where he works. Y'know, these poor folks spend lots more days away from their families than the much better paid NetJets pilots do. This pilot said many of his fellow crewmates work 14-hour days, seven or eight days in a row. Most of the time they're away from home, they're put up in flea bag hotels not fit for my huntin' dogs or they're forced to wait out at the flyin' field for hours at a time with nuttiin' to do. When they do fly, they can be up in the air 10 hours or more a day with nuttin' good to eat. Damn, that's a whole lot harder than what I do when I'm out plowin' the back 40. It doesn't seem too good a life to this country boy.
The pilot told us the big bosses who run Flight Options doubled the costs for pilots to insure their families if they get sick and have to go see the doc. And just the other day, the pilots' vacation system got an unwelcome overhaul that forces 'em to go on vacation when they don't want to and to fly overtime without gettin' paid for it for a year. To top it off, when they do get their paychecks, they're nowhere near as generous as NetJets pilots take home. Not only ain't the pay in the same neighborhood as that at NetJets, it ain't even in the same state—maybe not even on the same planet! Where I come from, we'd've had us a lynchin' by now if someone treated us that poorly. Y'all gots to know, my mule gets treated a whole lot better and all he does is pull a plow through the fields.
This poor pilot had a bunch more to say, but by then I heard enough. You knows me--I always out lookin' for new fields to plow and new seeds to sow. But the world has changed so much in the last few years. It's not been easy for me keepin' up. I had to put my 'ole Underwood typewriter out to pasture and learn how to use one of those newfangled keyboards attached to a magic gadget called a computer. I don't have a clue how the damn thing works inside, but it sure is a lot faster than "huntin' and peckin'" on that 'ole typewriter used to be. It's been a long hard struggle for this country boy, let me tell you, truly. But, take heart Brothers and Sisters, I'm all wired up and here to help y'all in your time of need!
In the weeks and months to come, I'm goin' to do some further checkin' into this Flight Options outfit and find out, with my own eyes and ears, just how the bosses treat the pilots that work there. I'll let y'all know what I finds out and then I'm goin' to share some down home thinkin' with y'all. If things is as bad as I been told, I gots some ideas 'bout how you pilots can help straighten things out and help bring in the harvest you so richly deserve. I understands y'all've already taken the first step and formed a co-op of your own—your Union. What a powerful tool a Union is—that is if y'all support it and pay your dues
Y'all should think of payin' your Union dues as an investment in your future. I invest in my farm by plowin' the fields and sowin' the seeds. The time and effort I put in and the costs of the seeds and the fuel to run my tractor are sort of like me payin' my dues. Then I gots to be patient while the seeds take root and come out of the ground. It takes time for the harvest to come in, don't y'know. Even so, sometimes farmin' is downright disappointin' and the harvest takes longer than expected.
There're all kinds of catastrophes when you work a farm. Sometimes it doesn't rain when needed—sometimes the wind blows so hard the topsoil disappears—sometimes the fields are invaded by locusts or other pests (sort of like your bosses, I been told)—and sometimes there ain't enough help to bring in the crops (not enough pilots payin' their dues). But, if I I'm patient and keeps at it and don't lose faith in what I'm a'doin'—or what my friends and neighbors are a'doin' to help me—I'll eventually bring in a bountiful harvest for me and my family and we will all prosper. So will y'all if you follows my advice. It has worked many times before. The simple truth is, you gots to be tough when you plow the fields for a livin'.
In the meantime, if I was you, I'd quit helpin' out extra around the barn until I was properly rewarded, respected and taken care of by the bosses. Yes, I'd still do my assigned chores so I didn't get myself in any trouble, but I wouldn't raise a single finger to do an extra lick of work. That is, of course, unless I was lickin' someone's backside in the hopes he would leave me alone and quit whippin' me. Now, I certainly don't think y'all should do anything illegal for or against this outfit you work for. That will just get you in trouble with your bosses and, maybe, even the Sheriff. But I don't think you pilots should do a lick more work for your bosses than the minimum 'til they quit abusin' y'all and recognize your true worth.
One thing I can tell y'all for sure, the more folks workin' the fields, the quicker the harvest comes in. So, next time y'all sittin' on your haunches at the air patch for hours and hours with nuttin' to do, why not spend some extra time checkin' out the machine you gonna fly. The pilot who came through town said many of the planes he's asked to fly are in a sorry state, so I knows y'all can probably find things wrong with 'em if you take the time to look 'round. From what I seen, airplanes are a whole lot more complicated than my simple tractor and I can always find somethin' that ain't workin' just right on it. When ya does find somethin' broke, let the people who supposed to fix 'em know 'bout what's wrong before you go flyin'. Ask 'em to fix it so it works just the way it supposed to. Seems like a good idea to me to complain 'bout a broken machine where and when y'all discover it ain't just right. There be no place for broken or dangerous equipment down on the farm. I'm sure they doesn't belong in the sky much, either.
Y'all need to communicate this message to some of your Brothers and Sisters that don't speak the same folksy language we do down home. Like I says, in the comin' weeks and months I'll have a whole lot more to say 'bout how to help spread the word and speed things along to bring in the harvest. In the meantime, keep your plows in the ground and your heads held up high. Let everyone you fly with know the Gardner has begun workin' the fields at Flight Options. The harvest—it is a'comin'.
Your friend,
THE GARDNER
 
Long winded but effective

Yep, Gardner is a bit long winded but he's a gas to read. I look forward to the next time he feels moved to share some down home wisdom.;)
 
Having spent a goodly amount of time on the farm

I can identify with 'ol boy. I usedtacould drive a tractor pretty good myself. In fact I think he and I mightcould be friends. I'd like to meet him and share a cup of joe (maybe with a little somethin' out of the still in the barn.)

:beer:
 
Excellent post, Gardner! Home truth--the more the hands the lighter the load and the quicker the job gets done. We all know that you get what you pay for in life. Flt Ops pilots are being paid the minimum so a fair days works for the wages should be just enough to squeak by. You know, like your pay. :mad:

Here's another common experience: When you stand up to a bully, the bullying stops and you start getting treated with respect. I have seen it happen for your peers at NJA and it can happen for Options pilots, too. When you boil it all down you have two choices. 1) Be a doormat and get walked all over. :eek: Or.... 2) Stand tall and earn respect.

What about the middle ground you ask? The fence-sitters? Those who are too spineless to choose a side do nothing and just end up despised by both sides. Sounds like choice # 1 to me.
 
Here's another common experience: When you stand up to a bully, the bullying stops and you start getting treated with respect. I have seen it happen for your peers at NJA and it can happen for Options pilots, too. When you boil it all down you have two choices. 1) Be a doormat and get walked all over. :eek: Or.... 2) Stand tall and earn respect.

What about the middle ground you ask? The fence-sitters? Those who are too spineless to choose a side do nothing and just end up despised by both sides. Sounds like choice # 1 to me.

The bully in this case though is the union, and the spineless ones let their union speak for them.

Those that didn't want the union stood tall and earned the respect of their non-union peers by voting no and clearly stating they wanted their continued life without the union. Add that 33% to the rest of the non-voting rank and file members of the company such as ground and dispatch, and the union mongers are the minority for sure. They don't want the union on the property. These aren't fence sitters, they clearly said "no union" with their vote. I hope they will continue to stand their ground against those that are pressing their will on them they didn't want in the first place.

The perception that management is playing games comes with the classic union rhetoric that does nothing but stir up mob mentality.

Playing the games of the "Gardener" will bear no fruit. It will bear a crop that will rot in the field.
 
Hey Bobby boy!

The bully in this case though is the union, and the spineless ones let their union speak for them.

Those that didn't want the union stood tall and earned the respect of their non-union peers by voting no and clearly stating they wanted their continued life without the union. Add that 33% to the rest of the non-voting rank and file members of the company such as ground and dispatch, and the union mongers are the minority for sure. They don't want the union on the property. These aren't fence sitters, they clearly said "no union" with their vote. I hope they will continue to stand their ground against those that are pressing their will on them they didn't want in the first place.

The perception that management is playing games comes with the classic union rhetoric that does nothing but stir up mob mentality.

Playing the games of the "Gardener" will bear no fruit. It will bear a crop that will rot in the field.

Havent heard from you in a while jacka$$! Oh wait that's right it's Tuesday after a holiday, you had the weekend off how nice. Things must be slow in cleveland this morning...
 
Vacation must be over

Bob

Your vacation must be over, wish I could say we missed you.

But you are very wrong about the level of anti union support that you and the company enjoys. Of course no one in CGF is going to tell you or anyone else in management that they support what we are doing, but Bob believe me we hear support form all corners of the crystal palace, we even hear it from within your management group. You see Bob its not only the pilots that can see the unscrupulous and abusive management that runs this ship wreck. Just keep doing what you and your buddies have been doing and who knows, you just might have another union or two to negotiate with.:laugh:
 
The bully in this case though is the union, and the spineless ones let their union speak for them.

Those that didn't want the union stood tall and earned the respect of their non-union peers by voting no and clearly stating they wanted their continued life without the union. Add that 33% to the rest of the non-voting rank and file members of the company such as ground and dispatch, and the union mongers are the minority for sure. They don't want the union on the property. These aren't fence sitters, they clearly said "no union" with their vote. I hope they will continue to stand their ground against those that are pressing their will on them they didn't want in the first place.

The perception that management is playing games comes with the classic union rhetoric that does nothing but stir up mob mentality.

Playing the games of the "Gardener" will bear no fruit. It will bear a crop that will rot in the field.

Sir, no one cares what your opinion is.
 
....Playing the games of the "Gardener" will bear no fruit. It will bear a crop that will rot in the field.

Like it is in the NJA field next farm over...:p Actually, after the Management games stopped, they realized the pilots were on the same team; now they're all working together to harvest a bumper crop and the relationship between the Company and the Union has never been better. Everyone knows what happens in contract battles. :rolleyes:

Here's your sign.....FUD
 
B19, if management is so good, why in your opinion is management perpetuating this problem of hostility by not properly providing fair compensation that is in line with industry standards? By doing so, would lower the hostile environment that is perpetuated by salary's that will soon now be over $50K under industry standards.

It was bad enough when last time CS and Flex ponied up the money and Flops management was asleep at the wheel. But when net jets gets another raise and the only response from Flight Options management is the sound of crickets....that will be more that even the most loyal management loving pilot could stand. I truly believe that the moral will be at a level to where every pilot will be looking for ways to grind this company to a halt, and force management to bargain in good faith. I don't think that is right, but I guess that is just human nature.

It shouldn't be that way. Our few and ever dwindling owners deserve better from our company.
 
Well known facts about low morale: Unmotivated workers are less productive as they become numbed and sluggish after repeated whacks with a stick. Labor unrest is very stressful and stress can make one physically ill. When you get run down (physically and/or mentally) you're more susceptible to picking up germs.

In all due respect Frac Cap, you have it backwards, it is management's arrogance and disrespectful attitude that will grind the pilots to a halt--and by default, the company. You are correct, though, that human nature, exhibited in low morale, will run a predictable course. That said, my sense of fairness compels me to give credit where credit is due--to the short-sighted, penny wise, pound foolish managers of Flight Options.
 
Can I have the last 10 minutes of my life back please? Seriously, I am all for QOL, pay, etc, but..... if this is how you think your going to get it then you have ALOT to learn. It takes alot more than a creative letter to change things. And this comes from a Tennessee boy.
 
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You are right

Can I have the last 10 minutes of my life back please? Seriously, I am all for QOL, pay, etc, but..... if this is how you think your going to get it then you have ALOT to learn. It takes alot more than a creative letter to change things. And this comes from a Tennessee boy.

One letter can't do it. It takes every pilot we have all working for the same goal and providing the finical support needed to keep the process moving forward. It takes informational efforts in multiple media educating our pilots, our owners, the public/potential customers about our efforts. It take skilled men sitting with company counterparts at the negotiations table fighting for a contract. It takes time and commitment by all of us to see this through to our collective goal.

You are right it takes a lot of people working hard supported by all of our members to make it happen.
 
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Like it is in the NJA field next farm over...:p Actually, after the Management games stopped, they realized the pilots were on the same team; now they're all working together to harvest a bumper crop and the relationship between the Company and the Union has never been better. Everyone knows what happens in contract battles. :rolleyes:

Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.
 
Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.

I will never understand aviation/airline/fractional management styles. It's counterintuitive. For example, Mr. Scheringa's lack of respect for his front-line employees increases their RISK of departure. I thought this was a service business? Why would anyone in a service business wish to upset the employees who interface with customers? Doesn't make a lot of sense...
 
Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.


Sounds like the writings of a scab to me
 
Torment

You guys are tormenting me I know. I have Bob, oops I mean B-19 on ignore. And since he's irrelevant it's the perfect place for him. Then you have to keep quoting the puke. Give me a break please don't quote Bob anymore. He doesn't matter.
 
You guys are tormenting me I know. I have Bob, oops I mean B-19 on ignore. And since he's irrelevant it's the perfect place for him. Then you have to keep quoting the puke. Give me a break please don't quote Bob anymore. He doesn't matter.

See no evil;

Hear no evil;

Speak no evil;

Join a union;

Have no fun! :laugh:
 
You guys ever notice how management's salaries are unknown while pilot wages are discussed openly...:rolleyes:

They expect you skilled, experienced professionals to perform flawlessly, interact graciously with clients, and make judgment calls that impact safety---all for sub par, blue collar wages while they sit at desks working regular hours, going home each evening, and then they have the gall to blame the pilots for problems caused by their mismanagement! Giving professionals a fair contract would end the labor strife quickly. How many executives work without a contract? How many of the white collar positions in the company pay blue collar wages? Let's compare mid-level managers' salaries to the pilots'. Oh wait....Flight Options doesn't want to do that, huh? :rolleyes:
 
Real Increased Risk

OK B-19/Bob let's ask some questions and look at who really causes and has the risk placed on them.

You said, "writing up items that would not normally be written up".

Are you suggesting that our pilots not record known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate an aircraft with known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate in violation of FAR's? Our maintenance and management personnel putting pressure on our pilots to operate in a illegal manner puts increases human factors stress on our pilots in the cockpit, REAL INCREASED RISK, not at some schedulers, maintenance coordinator or managers desk.

You said, "Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK."

The over time stand that the Union has taken was a result of threats of layoffs and forced vacation. I heard that union leadership had conversation with you regarding lifting the OT ban if the forced vacation came to a halt. We still have forced vacation. You and your buddies call it by a new name but it is still forced vacation. You made your bed Bob, get comfortable in it. Forcing our pilots to take vacation during times that prevent them form planning quality time with their families causes additional stress on them thereby producing REAL INCREASED RISK.

You Said, "Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower."

Bob we are not causing these cancellations, you are. We as pilots are mandated to disclose discrepancies on our aircraft when we discover them. The problem Bob is that in many cases our company management chooses not to fix the discrepancies, pencil whip them and send the jet back out. This results is the same discrepancy being recorded again and another cancellation or delay. You want to fix this problem Bob have your Maintenance personnel to start really fix our jets rather the waving the ink pen over them. Additional repeat write ups, additional stressful interaction with maintenance and management, translates to additional REAL INCREASED RISK in the cockpit.

You said, "Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK."

Bob I think our union negotiators are very competent to negotiate a contract at the table. They are not the problem Bob, it a unmotivated company management, doing everything they can to drag their feet, stone wall, delay, and ignore industry standard, that causes the negotiation process to be drawn out much longer then is necessary. You, Ford & Harrison, the moorons that sit in upper management are the culprits responsible for the negotiations process to cause stress that produces REAL INCREASED RISK on the entire company.

Bottom line Bob, if you want to fix all the crap that you are trying to sell here, get serious about getting a contract done. Its that simple.

The rest of you post was your normal anti union BS.

Have a nice day Bob.:D
 
Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.

B19 your post concerns me.

We are professional pilots and when an aircraft is found to have a discrepancy our job is simple. We write the aircraft up and report the find to MX control. Then it is up to MX to either fix, MEL or MDL the item. Of course they can only MEL / MDL the item if it is approved to do so. Another problem with this though is FLT OPTS MX likes to abuse the MEL and MDL.

We are responsible to our passengers to ensure that we do our jobs correctly and professionally.

You stated that intentionally writing up items that would normally not be written up creates additional human factors..... To who? Also, what items are you talking about?

This really concerns me that you actually think that there is a difference. You are basically saying that some items can be broken. Well you're right, but only after we write the aircraft up and the items are MEL'd or MDL'd. We are not authorized to decide what is acceptable and what is not. We are only doing our jobs. The people in CLE think this is personal. It is our duty as professional aviators and we owe it to the people we fly.

You seem to know your history. Have you ever researched aircraft accidents? There has been countless times when planes departed with a couple of minor problems. They were items viewed as not a safety of flight item. Well they weren't until they had another failure in flight. Now those items that were deemed minor before departure are directly responsible for bringing the aircraft down. I know this to be fact.

As far as scheduling and overtime. I have never worked for a company that is as poor at scheduling then FLT OPTS. Furthermore, we are treated so poorly, by the end of our 8 day rotation, the last thing we want to do is stay an extra day.

You commented about charter. I am glad you did. I can not tell you how many times I called scheduling hours before departure to alert them of a scheduling problem. You know what they tell us? It has been noted, but were not changing it. Well, I tried! There is also the times they duty us on at 0430 in the morning for a 1400 departure. You want to guess what happened that time? Weather moved in and we had a ground stop. We could not do the trip because we ran out of duty time. Oh and just in case you didn't guess, they had to charter the trip. This of course is our fault also. We should have stopped the thunderstorms from moving in.

The problems do not occur because of the pilots. We are only doing the professional job that Options hired us to do. You want someone to blame? Blame the incompetent management, schedulers and maintenance. But, that would be to hard to admit that they are really at fault. It is just easier to blame the pilots and the union.

I see under your ratings it states "desk". I am very glad to see that. We need pilots like you at a desk. Because God help the passengers if you were behind the controls.
 
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Delaying flights intentionally by writing up items that would not normally be written up creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK.

Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower.

Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK.

If I thought for a moment that any union would come on and not threaten the careers of rank and file employees, the financial health of the company or increase risk during the negotiation process I wouldn't feel the way I do but history has shown otherwise.

Oh, and while I'm talking about history, get off the NJ short term contract effects and lets talk INDUSTRY. Every carrier has had a union agreement and at times has been profitable.

Yet every carrier since the beginning of time has has labor trouble and unions have been slow to react forcing carriers into bankruptcy as a result.

Wow, that's pretty specific for a guy who doesn't even work at Flops.

With regard to your last comment, I think you know that in most cases bankruptcy is actually used by management as a tool to force unions back to the bargaining table.

Also, I think you also know that the types of actions you describe above have never been endorsed by the union. They are in fact the result of frustration on the part of individual pilots.

If you truly want to protect the office workers, as you say. Why not step up to the bargaining table and get this thing done. Balls in your court. Take some responsibility for your actions man, stop trying to lay it all of on the union. Yes I know some of the blame comes from above your head, but perhaps spending a little more time engaged in negotiations would help. Yea I heard you've been telling the pilots -again- that "the union doesn't want more bargaining sessions", that's a lie and you know it.

Point is, you have the power to make all the labor strife end by getting the contract finished. If this thing ends up in the toilet, it will be remembered that you and your cronies put it there and that will make two black marks next to your name. Time to stop listening to that union busting law firm and get-er-done. The pilots are way past the fear stage, know what I mean?
 
B-19 is a blubbering idiot. FUD flinging moron. EVERY single pilot I know who is anti-union avoids these boards like the plague. That is why they are anti-union, they are so against confrontation and any anxiety over things that they just bury their heads in the sand. So there is no doubt that this jackass is BT or even a lackey from FH getting on here to spread the FUD.

This pilot right here just made a change. From now on, all acts of mx incompetency, fraudulent signoffs, and pilot pushing are not only going on ASAP but will also be reported to the FAA hotline.

800-255-1111

http://www.thebark.org/docs/faasafe.htm

http://faa.gov/safety/

And as far as mgmt salaries being known? A PSM just told us the other day that he is being paid 105,000. And he is way down the seniority list. What are they being paid for? Certainly not good management. They are being paid for keeping their mouths shut about all the illegal and immoral acts they see and are forced to commit.

I can't imagine there is a single soul that would be sold by the FUD this idiot is flinging from his crystal palace, but it is entertaining and enlightening to see him come on here and show his true colors.

I usually peel SCABS off and flush them down the toilet. We will do the same thing here.
 
B19 your post concerns me.

We are professional pilots and when an aircraft is found to have a discrepancy our job is simple. We write the aircraft up and report the find to MX control. Then it is up to MX to either fix, MEL or MDL the item. Of course they can only MEL / MDL the item if it is approved to do so. Another problem with this though is FLT OPTS MX likes to abuse the MEL and MDL.

We are responsible to our passengers to ensure that we do our jobs correctly and professionally.

You stated that intentionally writing up items that would normally not be written up creates additional human factors..... To who? Also, what items are you talking about?

This really concerns me that you actually think that there is a difference. You are basically saying that some items can be broken. Well you're right, but only after we write the aircraft up and the items are MEL'd or MDL'd. We are not authorized to decide what is acceptable and what is not. We are only doing our jobs. The people in CLE think this is personal. It is our duty as professional aviators and we owe it to the people we fly.

You seem to know your history. Have you ever researched aircraft accidents? There has been countless times when planes departed with a couple of minor problems. They were items viewed as not a safety of flight item. Well they weren't until they had another failure in flight. Now those items that were deemed minor before departure are directly responsible for bringing the aircraft down. I know this to be fact.

As far as scheduling and overtime. I have never worked for a company that is as poor at scheduling then FLT OPTS. Furthermore, we are treated so poorly, by the end of our 8 day rotation, the last thing we want to do is stay an extra day.

You commented about charter. I am glad you did. I can not tell you how many times I called scheduling hours before departure to alert them of a scheduling problem. You know what they tell us? It has been noted, but were not changing it. Well, I tried! There is also the times they duty us on at 0430 in the morning for a 1400 departure. You want to guess what happened that time? Weather moved in and we had a ground stop. We could not do the trip because we ran out of duty time. Oh and just in case you didn't guess, they had to charter the trip. This of course is our fault also. We should have stopped the thunderstorms from moving in.

The problems do not occur because of the pilots. We are only doing the professional job that Options hired us to do. You want someone to blame? Blame the incompetent management, schedulers and maintenance. But, that would be to hard to admit that they are really at fault. It is just easier to blame the pilots and the union.

I see under your ratings it states "desk". I am very glad to see that. We need pilots like you at a desk. Because God help the passengers if you were behind the controls.

First, my response was directed at all those that agreed with the concepts the "Gardner" stated about adhering to the "rules".

Next, I have seen one specific airline get to the point where they had to define drips and drops of fluid and what would constitute a paint chip or peel. The delay would occur when maintenance would be called to detirmine if the 1/4" puddle on the ground or oily strunt without a puddle after an 8 hour overnight constituted a leaky nose wheel strut to ground a 1900C. Same with paint chips. These are what I call unwarranted BS write-ups but this carrier was smart enough to define them and eliminate the problem. If Flight Ops is smart, they too will create guidelines as such to prevent unwarranted writeups. Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to detirmine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union.
 
OK B-19/Bob let's ask some questions and look at who really causes and has the risk placed on them.

You said, "writing up items that would not normally be written up".

Are you suggesting that our pilots not record known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate an aircraft with known discrepancies? Are you suggesting that our pilots operate in violation of FAR's? Our maintenance and management personnel putting pressure on our pilots to operate in a illegal manner puts increases human factors stress on our pilots in the cockpit, REAL INCREASED RISK, not at some schedulers, maintenance coordinator or managers desk.

You said, "Not supporting the company by refusing ALL overtime, no matter how small it is adds operational demands to all people in the operation and creates additional human factors issues and INCREASES RISK."

The over time stand that the Union has taken was a result of threats of layoffs and forced vacation. I heard that union leadership had conversation with you regarding lifting the OT ban if the forced vacation came to a halt. We still have forced vacation. You and your buddies call it by a new name but it is still forced vacation. You made your bed Bob, get comfortable in it. Forcing our pilots to take vacation during times that prevent them form planning quality time with their families causes additional stress on them thereby producing REAL INCREASED RISK.

You Said, "Causing cancellations and forcing passengers onto charter flights that are not owned by the company INCREASES RISK to the ower."

Bob we are not causing these cancellations, you are. We as pilots are mandated to disclose discrepancies on our aircraft when we discover them. The problem Bob is that in many cases our company management chooses not to fix the discrepancies, pencil whip them and send the jet back out. This results is the same discrepancy being recorded again and another cancellation or delay. You want to fix this problem Bob have your Maintenance personnel to start really fix our jets rather the waving the ink pen over them. Additional repeat write ups, additional stressful interaction with maintenance and management, translates to additional REAL INCREASED RISK in the cockpit.

You said, "Apparently, because the union is not capable of negotiating a contract without tactics such as these, you are an advocate of INCREASED RISK."

Bob I think our union negotiators are very competent to negotiate a contract at the table. They are not the problem Bob, it a unmotivated company management, doing everything they can to drag their feet, stone wall, delay, and ignore industry standard, that causes the negotiation process to be drawn out much longer then is necessary. You, Ford & Harrison, the moorons that sit in upper management are the culprits responsible for the negotiations process to cause stress that produces REAL INCREASED RISK on the entire company.

Bottom line Bob, if you want to fix all the crap that you are trying to sell here, get serious about getting a contract done. Its that simple.

The rest of you post was your normal anti union BS.

Have a nice day Bob.:D

First, I'm not Bob,

Second, how can I not have a nice day?

I work at a non-union airline! :laugh:
 
Mel & Mdl

Sure you're not Bob, Bob.;)


But seriously Bob "Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to determine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union. "

Bob, we pilots do not have to be mechanics. If we see something that is questionable on our jets we write it. If its broke its broke, maintenance can fix it or MEL or MDL it if its allowed, but the problem should and must be recorded prior to flight.


Bob you aren't pushing pilots to do illegal things are you? :rolleyes:
 
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First, my response was directed at all those that agreed with the concepts the "Gardner" stated about adhering to the "rules".

Next, I have seen one specific airline get to the point where they had to define drips and drops of fluid and what would constitute a paint chip or peel. The delay would occur when maintenance would be called to detirmine if the 1/4" puddle on the ground or oily strunt without a puddle after an 8 hour overnight constituted a leaky nose wheel strut to ground a 1900C. Same with paint chips. These are what I call unwarranted BS write-ups but this carrier was smart enough to define them and eliminate the problem. If Flight Ops is smart, they too will create guidelines as such to prevent unwarranted writeups. Pilots aren't mechanics and sometimes they need a little help to detirmine what is truly a problem, and what is there to disrupt an airline out of spite to support the union.

B19 the problem is, there is no such thing as a BS unwarranted write up! If the aircraft has a discrepancy then it needs to be wrote up.

It sounds like you worked for a less than credible airline.

Also, Options can come up with all the guidelines they want. What it comes down to is that myself and my partner are final authority on that aircraft. If the manufacturer states that an item can not be MEL'd or MDL'd then the aircraft will sit until it is fixed correctly.

Regardless of contract negotiations, I will preflight an aircraft exactly the same way every time. If the company does not like that then they need to close the doors. We are not in a business where we can pick and choose what needs fixed. We owe it to the owners to ensure they are being taken care of.

Furthermore, If Flight Options is smart, they will stop wasting so much time, money and effort in ways they can get around the system! Just fix the aircraft correct the first time and start holding everyone accountable for being the worst fractional in the industry.

The pilot group is stronger than ever before and will not sit idle and let management ruin our company. Yes, this our company. Without us there would be no Flight Options. The only reason why we still have owners is because of the pilot group. They tell us this all the time. We will not be intimidated anymore. Fix the problems, pay us industry standard and we can all get this thing turned around. If they can't or won't do this, then they need to shut the doors! It is out of our hands now.
 
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