Nwa Pilots No Support Amfa?

[320AV8R]

Back when you guy's walked out the last time, I was a mechanic at NWA. I do remember that our union tried to support the pilots. We were told by ALPA, "thanks but, no thanks." Consequently, you guy's walked and .............

We walked......try again. The Company left the bargaining table before noon, and would not respond to repeated attempts from the union to contact them. They, in essence, locked us out.

either way, don't blame the mechanics....

I didn't blame the mechanics.

320AV8R

 

[ohplease!]

We walked......try again. The Company left the bargaining table before noon, and would not respond to repeated attempts from the union to contact them. They, in essence, locked us out.


I didn't blame the mechanics.

320AV8R

Whatever lets you sleep at night.....

 

[320AV8R]

Whatever lets you sleep at night.....

I sleep just fine.

Like I posted before......everything is the pilot's fault. AIDS, the Third World Debt, SARS, most of the unrest in the Middle East, and of course ALL the Labor problems at NWA.

YOU GUYS changed unions and YOU GUYS negotiated the current levels of outsourcing in YOUR contract. YOU GUYS decided YOUR direction in the process. It's not OUR fault that they are training contract mechanics.

Don't get me wrong. NWA mechanics are some of the very best out there; including the military and another part 121 carrier I was with. The Company is on a scorched earth negotiating plan that involves ALL employee groups. You should direct your anger & frustrations at them...they're the ones responsible for the Employee Jihad.

320AV8R

 

[festus]

"Don't get me wrong. NWA mechanics are some of the very best out there; including the military and another part 121 carrier I was with. The Company is on a scorched earth negotiating plan that involves ALL employee groups. You should direct your anger & frustrations at them...they're the ones responsible for the Employee Jihad."

I agree with this statement. Don't let the employee groups turn on each other, it is only a distraction that employee's can't afford.

 

[Sameold]

What does it say in your (NWA pilots) contract?

I bet it is like most other contracts. It says the company will not fly other airlines struck work.

In return for that language the company had language put in that prohibits the pilots from getting involved in or striking on behalf of other employee groups at NWA.

In short, does your contract prohibit you from taking action if the mechanics go on strike or are locked out?

 

[NuGuy]

What does it say in your (NWA pilots) contract?

I bet it is like most other contracts. It says the company will not fly other airlines struck work.

In return for that language the company had language put in that prohibits the pilots from getting involved in or striking on behalf of other employee groups at NWA.

In short, does your contract prohibit you from taking action if the mechanics go on strike or are locked out?

Nope. In fact, the pilots are the ONLY employee group at NWA that still has the right to sympathy strike in their contract. The other groups sold theirs out long ago.

Nu

 

[IndyGTP]

Do you believe Steenland when he said the replacement workforce will have an average of 6 years experience on commercial aircraft? These scab companies have been recruiting new A&P's from school!! The kids right out of school are jumping on the opportunity to make $32/hr. Little do they know, its only hurting the profession and will drive wages down to the equivalent of a baggage handler.

As a pilot I would hope you guys refuse to fly anything you feel is unsafe or shady and don't refrain from writing something up if its bad.

 

[Tref]

WTF are you all arguing about???

NWA ALPA hasn't taken a position on the potential AMFA strike yet. It's been said at least once on this board, but I guess it bears repeating... NWA ALPA hasn't taken a position on whether or not it will continue to fly through an AMFA strike or not.

The logic is simple: Supporting either side of the negotiation gives that side a huge club to hold over the other one's head. Suppose NWA ALPA told the NWA EMT that they would stop all flights in the event of an AMFA strike and then AMFA turned around and demanded a 1000% raise. You can imagine the opposite scenario playing out as well, although I do think that Mgmt's demands are completely ridiculous and they are not bargaining in good faith, even now.

I REALLY hope that they can negotiate an agreement. I guess we'll see, but until then I hope everyone quits arguing about a decision that hasn't been made yet. Go ahead and say what you'd like to have happen, just quit talking like it's a done deal. You're polluting the information stream.

 

[slider]

NWA Nazi mgmt...

Check out this link from the MSP Star trib...

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5548097.html

Is this typical NWA mgmt style? From the sounds of this article, it seems that this NWA mgmt regime is quite hostile towards the employee groups! If thats the case, how come ANYONE is still there!?!?!?!? I bet NWA mgmt just LOVES seeing their employee groups fighting amongst themselves.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

WTF are you all arguing about???


The logic is simple: Supporting either side of the negotiation gives that side a huge club to hold over the other one's head

Suppose NWA ALPA told the NWA EMT that they would stop all flights in the event of an AMFA strike and then AMFA turned around and demanded a 1000% raise. You can imagine the opposite scenario playing out as well, although I do think that Mgmt's demands are completely ridiculous and they are not bargaining in good faith, even now.

The consensus is that NWA ALPA will still fly, in fact if you call NWA contract negotiations right now, they will probably tell you that. Soooooooooooo, management is demanding the moon. Who needs the club? THE MECHANICS!

 

[dbrownie]

As a pilot I would hope you guys refuse to fly anything you feel is unsafe or shady and don't refrain from writing something up if its bad.

IndyGTP;

We do that now and will keep doing it.

The jets now are LOADED with multiple MELs.

Most every flight is a major pain looking up what has to be done.

Sadly it won't get better any time soon.

Dave B

 

[~~~^~~~]

I see DHC8 in your profile. You wouldnt happen to have been one of those awful Mesaba guys stealing main -line flying would you?

Hey did the Mesaba guys write the scope that gave them your flying, or did your MEC? Did the Duane Woerth sign the contract with the NWA MEC Chair? Did your fellow NWA pilots ratify the contract, with its scope provisions?

I'm not sure why you are complaining to a guy who flew Dash 8's. It is not like any of his fellow regional pilots had anything to do with the scope the NWA Pilot Reps and ALPA National negotiated. It appears your own MEC is who you should be angry with.

I fully expect ALPA to fly through a strike when Duane Woerth gets his picture taken eating cake and ice cream with Continental scabs. ALPA has lost any sense of what a union should be.

"Willow Run Vortex" that is not a reference to some General Motors engine is it? If so, I'm going to change my screen name to SVT4ME.

~~~^~~~

 

[320AV8R]

IndyGTP said:

Do you believe Steenland when he said the replacement workforce will have an average of 6 years experience on commercial aircraft?

I don't believe anything Steenland says. But I do believe the other sources, including the Director of Flight Ops, along with the FAA. The FAA has been closely involved with the recruitment and certification process of the replacement mechanics.

These scab companies have been recruiting new A&P's from school!! The kids right out of school are jumping on the opportunity to make $32/hr.

What "school" are you refering to ?

What is your source for the new mechanics' background ?

The fact is, most of them ARE furloughed Part 121 A&Ps, mostly NWA, UAL, etc.... My friend lives next to one of them, who's got years of experience, and is furloughed from NWA. The active line mechanics admit that most of them are experienced as well.

320AV8R

 

[scabseeker]

That has already started at the pilot group. We have lost tons of flying to contract companies, (Mesaba and Pinnacle). No other group has stepped up to stop it. I don't expect anyone to.

Fliarous! How is any other group supposed to step up to stop it when the pilots themselves didn't in the last "bridge" agreement. No wonder you don't expect anyone to.

I can't believe I am agreeing with fins but on this one he is 100% correct.

 

[Clyde]

You forgot C) Wait until NWA decides to strong arm you guys by hiring/training replacement pilots.

They can threaten to do that, but it wouldn't work. Northwest has about what, 5400 pilots? What do they fly? B-747's (200's and 400's), B-757's DC-9's, A319/320's, A330's, and DC-10's? A lot of training on a lot of different airframes, including three positions on two different fleets.

Assuming the pilots walk, Northwest (or any airline) for that matter cannot possibly hire and train that many pilots fast enough to survive.

First, the airplanes do not fly, the revenue does not accumulate. If they were to hire scabs off the street, it would take them 3-5 days just to go through indoc. 3-5 days of airplanes just sitting around would sink them, especially given their currrent financial situation. You can hire current/qualified people, but they can't be put into the cockpit overnight. By the time the scabs are trained and ready, there wouldn't be anyplace to go.

Second, even though some managers would fly, it isn't nearly enough to cover the system, probably not even enough to keep the place from imploding on itself. Don't count on the regionals to pick up the slack either, they already have their hands full with their own flying. Besides, the most profitable international routes cannot be flown by the regionals anyway.

Third, PR. A strike isn't good PR under any circumstance. People hear of a strike and of an airline scrambling to replace it's pilots, the first things to come to mind are going to be safety and reliability. There is no shortage of competition out there, and most travelers would simply flock to other carriers. And don't think for a minute that the competition wouldn't add additional flights and airframes to cities impacted by a labor dispute.

Fourth, training costs. Where is NWA going to get the money to train 5400 scabs? They would bankrupt themselves just paying for the training expenses.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

They can threaten to do that, but it wouldn't work. Northwest has about what, 5400 pilots? What do they fly? B-747's (200's and 400's), B-757's DC-9's, A319/320's, A330's, and DC-10's? A lot of training on a lot of different airframes, including three positions on two different fleets.

Assuming the pilots walk, Northwest (or any airline) for that matter cannot possibly hire and train that many pilots fast enough to survive.

First, the airplanes do not fly, the revenue does not accumulate. If they were to hire scabs off the street, it would take them 3-5 days just to go through indoc. 3-5 days of airplanes just sitting around would sink them, especially given their currrent financial situation. You can hire current/qualified people, but they can't be put into the cockpit overnight. By the time the scabs are trained and ready, there wouldn't be anyplace to go.

Second, even though some managers would fly, it isn't nearly enough to cover the system, probably not even enough to keep the place from imploding on itself. Don't count on the regionals to pick up the slack either, they already have their hands full with their own flying. Besides, the most profitable international routes cannot be flown by the regionals anyway.

Third, PR. A strike isn't good PR under any circumstance. People hear of a strike and of an airline scrambling to replace it's pilots, the first things to come to mind are going to be safety and reliability. There is no shortage of competition out there, and most travelers would simply flock to other carriers. And don't think for a minute that the competition wouldn't add additional flights and airframes to cities impacted by a labor dispute.

Fourth, training costs. Where is NWA going to get the money to train 5400 scabs? They would bankrupt themselves just paying for the training expenses.

NWA is doing everything you claim that "they cant do" as we speak with 1200 replacement flight attendants and over a 1000 mechanics. These people are trained and ready to go. They will be in position on Aug 19. With the flight attendants , management even made the PFAA ones train their replacements on actual aircraft! Hows that for good faith bargaining? This is a learning experience for NWA management. Next time they will have a system to train just enough pilots to bust the pilot union.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Hey did the Mesaba guys write the scope that gave them your flying, or did your MEC? Did the Duane Woerth sign the contract with the NWA MEC Chair? Did your fellow NWA pilots ratify the contract, with its scope provisions?

I'm not sure why you are complaining to a guy who flew Dash 8's. It is not like any of his fellow regional pilots had anything to do with the scope the NWA Pilot Reps and ALPA National negotiated. It appears your own MEC is who you should be angry with.

I fully expect ALPA to fly through a strike when Duane Woerth gets his picture taken eating cake and ice cream with Continental scabs. ALPA has lost any sense of what a union should be.

"Willow Run Vortex" that is not a reference to some General Motors engine is it? If so, I'm going to change my screen name to SVT4ME.

~~~^~~~

Originally Posted by dbrownie
Cactus-Wrench,

"That has already started at the pilot group. We have lost tons of flying to contract companies, (Mesaba and Pinnacle). No other group has stepped up to stop it. I don't expect anyone to.



Dave B"



You completely missed the point of my post ~~~^~~~. I was being sarcastic because dbrownie stated that NWA was losing main-line flying to Mesaba and Pinnacle. Then I saw DHC8 in his profile and asked him if he used to be one of the guys he was referring to.

People before you respond to a post do EVERYONE a favor and read the whole thread so you dont look like an idiot.

 

[Dan Roman]

http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/5548097.html

Looks to me like management has decided Northwest needs to be a non-union airline. They will keep chiping away at the unions till they are gone. Look at Continental, in hind site, killing the unions and starting all over again ended up leaving CO in a relativly strong position, albeit they suffered for years. Looks like NWA is going down that same path. My prediction is they are looking to be non or weak union carrier with new generation(787) aircraft 5 years from now. What happens in the mean (pun intended) time will not be pretty.
Good luck guys

 

[Tref]

The consensus is that NWA ALPA will still fly, in fact if you call NWA contract negotiations right now, they will probably tell you that. Soooooooooooo, management is demanding the moon. Who needs the club? THE MECHANICS!

WRV,

NWA ALPA doesn't do what you and your consensus decides it is going to do. They will decide what course of action to take. You may be right, you may be wrong. My point is that the decision has either not been made, or at least has not been made public, despite your apparent psychic abilities.

 

[VABB]

Well thats not me. My family has a personal stake in what is transpiring at NWA. The simple fact of the matter is the NWA pilots are empowering NWA management, albeit indirectly. Anyone who has ANY excperience with the culture of NWA management knows that is a group that needs to be taken down a few notches not given more leverage.

Personal stake? Dude, you're a former fellow-Yipper who now flies for Spirit. What kind of stake could you and your family possibly have in NWA? Frequent-flier miles?

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Personal stake? Dude, you're a former fellow-Yipper who now flies for Spirit. What kind of stake could you and your family possibly have in NWA? Frequent-flier miles?

Mrs. WRV's pay stub says Northwest Airlines at the top. And no, I dont fly for Spirit.

 

[VABB]

Mrs. WRV's pay stub says Northwest Airlines at the top. And no, I dont fly for Spirit.

My condolences for the misunderstandings. Who do you fly for now?

 

[WillowRunVortex]

My condolences for the misunderstandings. Who do you fly for now?

------------------------------------------------------------------.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

WRV,

NWA ALPA doesn't do what you and your consensus decides it is going to do. They will decide what course of action to take. You may be right, you may be wrong. My point is that the decision has either not been made, or at least has not been made public, despite your apparent psychic abilities.

Do they do what a NWA DC9 Captain who has been issued a cell phone by ALPA to answer NWA contract negotiations questions says they are planning to do?

 

[dbrownie]

Do they do what a NWA DC9 Captain who has been issued a cell phone by ALPA to answer NWA contract negotiations questions says they are planning to do?

WillowRunVortex;

Huh? Ok you lost me on that one.

The way it looks to me is that AMFA decided to play chicken/hardball with a bunch of creeps at NWA.

MGT is not going to flinch and the AMFA group is going to be replaced. Period.

In my opinion...

Dave B

 

[WillowRunVortex]

WillowRunVortex;

Huh? Ok you lost me on that one.

The way it looks to me is that AMFA decided to play chicken/hardball with a bunch of creeps at NWA.

MGT is not going to flinch and the AMFA group is going to be replaced. Period.

In my opinion...Dave B

The question (admittedly poorly worded) was in response to Tref who wrote:

"NWA ALPA doesn't do what you and your consensus decides it is going to do"

I was asking Tref if NWA ALPA "does" what its company reps are saying they are going to do.

Secondly,,,Dave B, would you consider a 53% perminent reduction in the NWA pilot ranks an acceptable offer? With a 26% reduction in pay for the remaining 47% left on the property?

 

[Tref]

WRV,

Don't know exactly who you've been speaking with but as of today this is the NWA MEC's position (from today's Ziplines):

"The important point for all NWA pilots to remember is this: Unless and until the MEC determines that a sympathy strike by NWA pilots in support of an AMFA strike is in the best interests of the NWA pilot group, all NWA pilots should report for work as scheduled and do their best to ensure the safe and effective operation of their flights."

Now if you read that to mean a sympathy strike won't happen, then that's you're interpretation, but that's not how I read it. My whole point at the beginning of this was that a decision had not been made and many people on this thread were talking about it like it was a done deal.

FWIW, I do agree that the company's position is completely unreasonable and the fact that they are not willing to budge from their opening position says to me that they are not bargaining in good faith. Of course the rhetoric always becomes more enflamed as the deadline nears. Many conflicts seem unresolvable until the last minutes tick off the clock. Let's all hope they can work this out.

Tref

 

[dbrownie]

Dave B, would you consider a 53% perminent reduction in the NWA pilot ranks an acceptable offer? With a 26% reduction in pay for the remaining 47% left on the property?

I agree it is lousy. Was this their first or final offer?

AMFA sounded like they wanted to play hardball.

AMFA has backed MGT into a corner and now MGT is using a crappy offer in order to replace the Mechanics.

They are going to do the same thing with the flight attendants.
In my opinion...

Dave B

 

[cfm56-7b]

it's sad that work groups can't come together a time like this, pilots back mechanics mechanics back f/a's ect. Quit crying im a pilot or im a mechanic just get together and stand together. If not ever one will be crying in the unemployment line.

 

[Tref]

I agree it is lousy. Was this their first or final offer?

AMFA sounded like they wanted to play hardball.

AMFA has backed MGT into a corner and now MGT is using a crappy offer in order to replace the Mechanics.

They are going to do the same thing with the flight attendants.
In my opinion...

Dave B

Unfortunately, I think you're right. Neither AMFA nor PFAA has signed confidentiality agreements with NWA, so they can't look at their books. They just had their heads in the sand saying "Full pay to the last day."

Finally, AMFA offered to take a 16% pay cut but the hungry zombie NW mgmt just keeps repeating the same opening over and over. Their big offer recently was that they would give furlough protection to 75% of the remaining 47% of the mechanics. Gee thanks guys!

Another "unfortunately" is that after they're done with the mechs and FAs, they're gonna come back to the pilots for more. "More brains, must eat more brains!" If AMFA and PFAA had jumped in the pool and done a deal together with ALPA (like ALPA wanted) much of this divide and conquer strategy would not be effective. Live and learn, or maybe, die and learn. Hopefully the former.