NWA pilots become regional pilots

[TinGoose1]

If your TA is ratified, the only thing you will have done is sacrified the bottom 1000 pilots to save your pensions. After those 1000 pilots become regional pilots, your pensions will evaporate just like ours and you will be left with a greater whipsaw to deal with. The place you save pensions is on capital hill, not at the regionals. So for those of you in the bottom 1000 at NWA, good luck if this TA is ratified. You'll be regional pilots who will be making middle of the pack "regional pay" with only a hollow promise of returning. I say hollow because the pensions will evaporate and Compass will be IPO'd. After a couple of years of flying a regionals schedule and pay, those same pilots who voted to ratify this POS will give up more scope. You will then be joined by 1000 more of your brothers at Compass. If you ratify this POS TA, you will have not only won the race to the bottom at the majors, you will have won the race at the commuters. You guys will decide if this remains a career, or if we all will end up flying RJ's.

-TG

 

[320AV8R]

Tin-

It sounds like you're pretty emotional about something happening at another carrier, that doesn't even involve you.

If your TA is ratified, the only thing you will have done is scarified the bottom 1000 pilots to save your pensions.

Explain how. Where do you get the 1000 number ? It's public knowledge that passage of the TA has no bearing on the pension. The TA could pass, the legislation could fail, & the pension would be toast.

After those 1000 pilots become regional pilots, your pensions will evaporate just like ours......

Maybe, maybe not..... see above.

The place you save pensions is on capital hill, not at the regionals.

I agree, where was it stated otherwise ?

So for those of you in the bottom 1000 at NWA, good luck if this TA is ratified. You'll be regional pilots who will be making middle of the pack "regional pay" with only a hollow promise of returning.

What is your source ? The latest LEC meetings, MEC road shows, multiple ALPA e-mails, regular mailings, negotiators, LEC reps, ALPA Nat'l speakers, etc all indicate otherwise.

Have you received any of the above information, or been to any NW presentation on this subject ? Talked to anyone directly involved ?

I say hollow because the pensions will evaporate and Compass will be IPO'd. After a couple of years of flying a regionals schedule and pay, those same pilots who voted to ratify this POS will give up more scope. You will then be joined by 1000 more of your brothers at Compass.

If you can predict this with such certainty, can you PM me with some stock tips ?

If you ratify this POS TA, you will have not only won the race to the bottom at the majors, you will have won the race at the commuters. You guys will decide if this remains a career, or if we all will end up flying RJ's.

Really ? Hmmmm.... this TA has defined work rules for ALL our mainline flying. UAL flying below the 757 level has NO work rules.

Our sick leave is capped at 1200 hours, with totals above that grandfathered. America West's is capped at 500 hours, US Air's at 60.

We retained our BOD seat. How many other pilot groups have that ?

Our successorship & fragmentation language is the best out there.... how's yours ?

As you can see, there is some more room before we get to the bottom.

As far as a job or a career, we will decide what happens here.... not where you are, or elsewhere. When UAL got their massive raises, did all other pilot groups get one too ? UAL, USAir & DAL pilots lost / will lose their pension.... we may or may not. Your union where you are is soley responsible for your working conditions.... not us or anybody else.

320AV8R

 

[ferlo]

320,

with all do respect, pull your head out of your as*. This is how the game is played, to pretend otherwise is going to lead you into intense disappointment and shock. Be ready for it.

 

[ironspud]

Tin-

It sounds like you're pretty emotional about something happening at another carrier, that doesn't even involve you.
320AV8R

If he's working in the industry, he has a right to be emotional. This NW TA vote will be a watershed event for what's left of the non-LCC's - and the career.

The fact you might have a BOD seat is meaningless.

 

[XJohXJ]

Any downward movement at any carrier has a negative impact at every carrier. If Mesaba goes to rock bottom, every other group can set their timers to see how soon their management teams start trying to match our low low rates. What happens at NWA will have an impact on other carriers too. We are all ALPA, so we do ALL have a stake in this game. The old school way of thinking: "I'll look after myself, thank you, why don't you buzz off and mind your own business" is a large reason why we are in this mess now.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Any downward movement at any carrier has a negative impact at every carrier.

With some obvious exceptions, I agree. There have been some spectacularly mis-managed carriers that failed even when the rest of the industry was thriving. There has also been some carriers that were intentionally wrecked because their owners were amoral scumbags.

Pilots hardly control all factors that influence their ability to protect or improve their careers.

If Mesaba goes to rock bottom, every other group can set their timers to see how soon their management teams start trying to match our low low rates.

Maybe. MSA is a unique case. MAIR is causing some of the problems, and there are aren't a lot of other carriers in the same situation. I agree with you that "pattern bargaining" works in both directions and we dont' negotiate in a vacuum.

What happens at NWA will have an impact on other carriers too. We are all ALPA, so we do ALL have a stake in this game. The old school way of thinking: "I'll look after myself, thank you, why don't you buzz off and mind your own business" is a large reason why we are in this mess now.

Funny we don't complain when it's startling achievements in the other direction. We all approved of the gains UAL made in 2000, then DAL and CMR in 2001 using that attitude. Then we lament it when the trend is in the other direction. ALPA is a "state's rights" organization. Duane Woerth doesn't set the priorities or make the choices of each airline's MEC. If he tried, he'd be whapped pretty quickly.

 

[ESS PWR]

With some obvious exceptions, I agree. There have been some spectacularly mis-managed carriers that failed even when the rest of the industry was thriving. There has also been some carriers that were intentionally wrecked because their owners were amoral scumbags.


So true, Lorenzo had a different view of the future and who should be part of it, so CAL pilots paid a high price and from what I hear they were always looked down upon as a result. I guess today CAL pilots are facing a slightly brighter future than most of us and like it or not, they are holding the bar higher for us at this point.

I applaud your level headed approach to these attacks on our profession. Perhaps as you mentioned, the alternatives sometimes are far more difficult to face. The unfortunate position the NW pilots are bargaining from, should be a reminder to every airline pilot of the difficulties of choosing between bad and worse

 

[320AV8R]

320,
with all do respect, pull your head out of your as*. This is how the game is played, to pretend otherwise is going to lead you into intense disappointment and shock. Be ready for it.

ferlo-

With all due respect to you, my head is out of my ass. TG makes accusations and remarks without the slightest bit of knowledge about what is transpiring at NWA. His assertions are the product of hasty generaliations and emotion, rather than hours of listing to the facts being presented, by reading reems of info on the subject, or talking directly with numerous individuals at all levels that are immediately involved with what is happening.

This is my third airline... I have an idea how the game is played. Intense disappointment & shock are a common byproduct of this stupid industry.... I'm ready.

320AV8R

 

[320AV8R]

If he's working in the industry, he has a right to be emotional. This NW TA vote will be a watershed event for what's left of the non-LCC's - and the career.

A watershed event ? I'm not so sure.

The fact you might have a BOD seat is meaningless.

No it's not. It provides a direct input to the BOD on vital issues. Besides, that wasn't my point. TG said we're leading a race to the bottom. I gave examples of other carriers that would be "farther down" than us, if this TA is approved.

320AV8R

 

[michael707767]

If your TA is ratified, the only thing you will have done is sacrified the bottom 1000 pilots to save your pensions. After those 1000 pilots become regional pilots, your pensions will evaporate just like ours and you will be left with a greater whipsaw to deal with.

interesting idea. Frankly, once the bottom 1000 or so are at a new carrier, whats to prevent them from getting even with the senior folks who sacrificed them by going to the company and saying they will fly the A-320s for less?