NWA, Delta pilot clash blocking merger

[Superpilot92]

Because of the massive retirements DAL experienced.
DOH would be significantly tipped in NWAs favor. BUT..when NWA top guys retire it could swing the other way.
They need to reach a deal on a list that takes everything into account...they are basically (I bet) using every method to sort the list...DOH...A/C expectations and some sort of ratio also, as DAL has 7k+ pilots and NWA has 4k+.

NO stapling of anyone...that crap won't fly. From either side.

5000+ lets keep it real

 

[michael707767]

"[Delta has] scores of 40-year-old captains, guys hired after me who would become senior to me," said a Northwest pilot, who asked not to be named. "If we stay as we are, I am a widebody captain by the end of my career. But if we do it the way they want, I would only become a narrowbody captain because Delta pilots with less years of service would move ahead of me."

This quote is from The Street.com, reminds me of the USAir pilots all over again.

DOH is not in ALPA policy folks!

PS, I don't believe someone who could retire a widebody captain at NWA would be limited to a narrowody in a relative position merger. Delta is bringing large number of widebodies to the combined airline.

 

[Turtle21]

By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune

..."It is at risk by a handful, just a couple of renegade Northwest Airlines pilots

WTF. just a couple?

Yeah... Just like "a couple" pilots in favor of USAPA.

The "news source" must have been an ALPA spokesperson.:laugh:

 

[justin15e]

Can someone answer a few ?'s for me since I'm relatively new to this whole industry?

1) How is it that people think that merging seniority lists based on DOH is fair since DOH between 2 different companies is arbitrary?

Also, I've heard this argument a few times here too...

Any newhires hired after the last major industry downturn (9/11) should be put after anyone that was hired prior, no matter where they stand on their current companies seniority list (percentage wise).

2) It seems to me that if you maintain your relative seniority +/- a % point or two, thats all you can ask for in a merger. How is this not the fairest way to do things? It seems to me there are a lot of money grubbing people out there who would like for the opposing company (and the merger) to pay them back for everything they lost in the downturn.

 

[Turtle21]

Can someone answer a few ?'s for me since I'm relatively new to this whole industry?

1) How is it that people think that merging seniority lists based on DOH is fair since DOH between 2 different companies is arbitrary?

Also, I've heard this argument a few times here too...

Any newhires hired after the last major industry downturn (9/11) should be put after anyone that was hired prior, no matter where they stand on their current companies seniority list (percentage wise).

2) It seems to me that if you maintain your relative seniority +/- a % point or two, thats all you can ask for in a merger. How is this not the fairest way to do things? It seems to me there are a lot of money grubbing people out there who would like for the opposing company (and the merger) to pay them back for everything they lost in the downturn.

When I was flying in the military I didn't know what the hell was going on in the airlines either.:beer:

 

[Sparse]

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

 

[michael707767]

When I was flying in the military I didn't know what the hell was going on in the airlines either.:beer:

tell us how he got it wrong?

 

[PuffDriver]

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

Ya really want to go there? I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

As for the retirement, the amount of money I received for the termination will actually turn into more money than i would receive in todays rates, and it is in my name. What's more, Delta is putting 11% of my annual salary into a retirement also in my name without me contributing a dime. What percentage is your DB frozen?

I suggest that you drop this conversation before you get your butt beat, and badly.

 

[Schwanker]

tell us how he got it wrong?

How about DAL merge with Skywest: Are you in favor of relative seniority?

It doesn't necessarily balance career expectations. DAL just had a large majority of their pilots age 52 and over leave significantly improving relative seniority. This will result in minimal changes in seniority number for the next 13 years with age 65.

NWA on the other hand have lots of pilots 55 and over who will retire short term due to the age 60 pension surviving the BK.

This combination skews relative seniority between the 2 carriers when put in the context of career expections. To balance this, maybe the snapshot should be taken 13 years into the future when DAL retirements catch up with NWA retirements as a percentage of their individual lists.

 

[michael707767]

How about DAL merge with Skywest: Are you in favor of relative seniority?

yes. But I guess it depends on how you define relative seniority. I don't think it's a straight percentage, that's what I would call a percentage merger.

 

[DTW320]

I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

A thousand?!?!?!??? Really???. Wow. You MUST have seen a different TA comparison than I did a couple of years ago....

 

[xray678]

NWA on the other hand have lots of pilots 55 and over who will retire short term due to the age 60 pension surviving the BK.

This combination skews relative seniority between the 2 carriers when put in the context of career expections. To balance this, maybe the snapshot should be taken 13 years into the future when DAL retirements catch up with NWA retirements as a percentage of their individual lists.

First of all, you are only speculating on guys retiring at 60. What if they don't?

A snapshot 13 years from now would be unfair too. I mean, the Delta pilots are bringing well over 100 widebodies to the table. DOH, or anything close to it, would mean for a long, long time every vacancy that occurs on a Delta widebody would be filled by a NWA pilot. Figuring a way to protect the advancement of a NWA pilot to a widebody is fine. But don't stop the Delta guys from advancing to a widebody in the process.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

That's great. You have a lot of old planes, and krappy bases. Where do you think our new 777LRs will be going as we get them? We get 6 new ones within 3 months later this year. We will overfly NRT and go nonstop, probably from LAX and ATL. I have a feeling our .2% will rise a bit, eh? But according to you, DL will be empty because NWA is so well known and really the "home town favorite" in Japan, at least according to your NRT gate agents.......whatever...

Bye Bye--General Lee

So General,

Why is it that you usually seem to do pretty good research and, despite your tone of often being a complete tool, you make a case for many of your positions with numbers and data, but you seem to support Lee Moak with nothing but blind love and devotion?

Moak pounds his chest in public, and in letters from the chief, how powerful he/DALPA is, but what if he's getting it wrong behind closed doors? Everyone there giving him carte blanche? If DAL/NW falls apart because of too much Moak, then what? Who loses in the end.

Might it not be possible his strong arm strategy is flawed? Kind of like you were wrong in predicting DAL would be on the sideline until someone else got on the merger train?

Hoping you call me a "dork" again ... I think that was my favortie GL response. Regards,

BD

 

[michael707767]

Moak pounds his chest in public, and in letters from the chief, how powerful he/DALPA is, but what if he's getting it wrong behind closed doors? Everyone there giving him carte blanche? If DAL/NW falls apart because of too much Moak, then what? Who loses in the end.

Hedge funds.

The question to me is who wins if this falls apart. If Moak kills this deal, I would start to support him again. At best....at best, the pilots of Delta and Northwest will break even in this deal. At worst we could have 2000 furloughs and career stagnation for years if this goes through. Sorry, but I don't see any positives in this merger....certainly not for the Delta pilots.

 

[Diesel-9]

I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

I have our MEC T.A. comparison and the National ALPA NWA/DAL Merger Analysis. Contracts are still very close. Pay at NWA maybe 8-10% lower but a frozen pension because of that. NWA has much better sick leave and Disability Retirement. Over the last 20 years the contracts are so similar. Had it not been for the NWA '98 strike, UAL and DAL wouldn't have had the opportunity to get the big raises they did. I showed the documents to a couple local DAL guys and they seemed surprised at all the info I had. And was my experience in the Reserves with all the airline guys, the DAL guys were usually the least knowledgeable on industry comparisons or less informed from their MEC.