NWA, Delta pilot clash blocking merger

[jetflier]

I really like the phrase, "Keep your Delta your Delta"

but I think both airlines will be merged,...an pilots will have to come to an agreement. NWA/Republic were fused together with twenty year fences on equiptment. That may not be such a bad idea again.

 

[clippyrip]

I believe after 2021 there are significantly more DAL retirements each year than NWA.

I guess it depends on where you want to take your snap shot as to who has more retirements.

I like to take a snap shot while were young. But its good to know that after the huge NWA bump, delta has one coming too.

 

[Schwanker]

Through 2020 DAL has 1,259 retirements.

Here's the age 65 retirements I got from the DAL list;
2008: 0
2009: 0
2010: 0
2011: 0
2012: 2
2013: 60
2014: 73
2015: 89
2016:132
2017:157
2018:218
2019:272

Add them up and you get 1003 retirements between the 1 Jan 2008 list and the 1 Jan 2020 list. At lease we're not too far off. I'm fairly certain these numbers are right. Maybe you included 2020 retirements as well. I went to 1 Jan 2020. No biggie. I guess it really won't matter as we have no control anyways.

Schwanker

 

[~~~^~~~]

Delta management appears ready to walk away from this deal.

 

[scarlet]

WHY not DOH??? Totally fair.... You can not help when you were born, when you could have gotten your pilot ratings

Somethings you can not CONTROL

DOH most fair !!! No dog in fight here

 

[120% Torque]

Delta management appears ready to walk away from this deal.

Is that what you are hearing at HQ? Just curious where you are getting this vibe/info?

The closer I look at this the more I think this merger is not such a good idea for Delta guys. Too much risk for not enough reward. The better case scenario would be putting in a big order for more 777, 737 and an RJ replacment of some sort. Grow organically and raise the pay rates in 2009. Originally I thought it might not be a bad deal since NWA brings alot of retirements to the table. If Delta guys are relatively squished below alot of NWA guys that are below the guys who will retire in maybe five to ten more years then that one asset doesnt look so good. Flying a DC9 out of MSP or DTW looks pretty bad (no offense to those doing it now) compared to what even the new guys are getting at Delta.

It seems this merger stands to benefit the NWA group more than the Delta group. I'm sure they will dissagree but maybe both going it alone is the only way to truly find out.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Delta has been very up front about protecting the seniority of its employees in a transaction. The DMEC was also proactive in putting forward the pilots' role in the merger from the begining.

This is not new news, All along Delta has reported that it's stand alone plan is working well and the merger would not happen unless it benefits the stakeholders, including employees.

In response to the NWA seniority plans that have been reported, Delta's leadership re-emphasized its' long standing positions.

I think most folks want a fair transaction, but no one feels pressured to do a deal at any cost. This flight is not leaving the gate until the Captain agrees it is a safe operation.

Makes Doug Steenland happy too.

 

[FDJ2]

Here's the age 65 retirements I got from the DAL list;
2008: 0
2009: 0
2010: 0
2011: 0
2012: 2
2013: 60
2014: 73
2015: 89
2016:132
2017:157
2018:218
2019:272

Add them up and you get 1003 retirements between the 1 Jan 2008 list and the 1 Jan 2020 list. At lease we're not too far off. I'm fairly certain these numbers are right. Maybe you included 2020 retirements as well. I went to 1 Jan 2020. No biggie. I guess it really won't matter as we have no control anyways.

Schwanker

Your numbers are fairly accurate. However retirements don't stop in 2019. in 2020 DAL has 316 retirements in 2021 DAL has 453, in 2022 we have532 and so on and so on. While it may be convenient to take a snap shot for a limited period of time, it hardly tells the whole story. At the end of the day, if it comes to it, few arbitrators will consider potential future bumps in retirement numbers. Just ask the AAA pilots how that worked out for them.

The best result for all of us is a negotiated agreement. We can always play this game of selective targeting of the other guy and over stating our own expectations, but that's just a recipe for arbitration and a lost opportunity.

 

[wings421]

FWIW, I plotted out the retirements at DAL and NWA before they started to hire again (and before age 65 of course) and you would get half way up the list at NWA only one year before you'd get half way up the list at DAL.

 

[clippyrip]

It is entertaining to read these arguments about who is the hog with the big nuts. A few more arguments for each side and I think it will all be settled here on FI.

 

[Superpilot92]

Is that what you are hearing at HQ? Just curious where you are getting this vibe/info?

The closer I look at this the more I think this merger is not such a good idea for Delta guys. Too much risk for not enough reward. The better case scenario would be putting in a big order for more 777, 737 and an RJ replacment of some sort. Grow organically and raise the pay rates in 2009. Originally I thought it might not be a bad deal since NWA brings alot of retirements to the table. If Delta guys are relatively squished below alot of NWA guys that are below the guys who will retire in maybe five to ten more years then that one asset doesnt look so good. Flying a DC9 out of MSP or DTW looks pretty bad (no offense to those doing it now) compared to what even the new guys are getting at Delta.

It seems this merger stands to benefit the NWA group more than the Delta group. I'm sure they will dissagree but maybe both going it alone is the only way to truly find out.

If you step back and read what you wrote i think you might find it interesting. You say you want a fair deal right? You are saying you originally liked that the large amount of retirements at NWA could benefit you but when the deal is "mentioned" about making it fair for career expectations to the nwa guys and putting some NWA guys in front then suddenly its not fair?

I want a fair deal just as much as anyone but lets make it fair for everyone based on you current career expectations. IF they can work a deal out like that and your career expectations dont change much then that is the only "fair" way of doing it. IMHO However more than likely nothing we say on here will change anything.

 

[jke406]

Yup,...no bites here. They better sweeten' the pot.

No dog in this fight, but...

The pot is already considerably "sweeter" than anything you would see in your career without a merger, fella.

When the deal falls apart due to unreasonable demands by NWA zealots, I think you'll beg for the deal you're bashing now.

 

[dtfl]

DELETED - Double post

 

[dtfl]

Date of hire, plus some fences for domiciles,equipment and seats. What's the problem?

Because of the massive retirements DAL experienced.
DOH would be significantly tipped in NWAs favor. BUT..when NWA top guys retire it could swing the other way.
They need to reach a deal on a list that takes everything into account...they are basically (I bet) using every method to sort the list...DOH...A/C expectations and some sort of ratio also, as DAL has 7k+ pilots and NWA has 4k+.

NO stapling of anyone...that crap won't fly. From either side.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NO stapling of anyone...that crap won't fly. From either side.

Better yet, since the NWA guys think they are getting screwed, and us Delta guys KNOW we are getting screwed (by each others proposals)...why don't we all work together to kill this deal. Could it be that NWA guys see a huge improvement to their conrtact and a %30 pay raise on day one.

Come on guys, lets work together.....to end the deal. Were doin' just fine on our own, as are you guys at NWA.

 

[Superpilot92]

Because of the massive retirements DAL experienced.
DOH would be significantly tipped in NWAs favor. BUT..when NWA top guys retire it could swing the other way.
They need to reach a deal on a list that takes everything into account...they are basically (I bet) using every method to sort the list...DOH...A/C expectations and some sort of ratio also, as DAL has 7k+ pilots and NWA has 4k+.

NO stapling of anyone...that crap won't fly. From either side.

5000+ lets keep it real

 

[michael707767]

"[Delta has] scores of 40-year-old captains, guys hired after me who would become senior to me," said a Northwest pilot, who asked not to be named. "If we stay as we are, I am a widebody captain by the end of my career. But if we do it the way they want, I would only become a narrowbody captain because Delta pilots with less years of service would move ahead of me."

This quote is from The Street.com, reminds me of the USAir pilots all over again.

DOH is not in ALPA policy folks!

PS, I don't believe someone who could retire a widebody captain at NWA would be limited to a narrowody in a relative position merger. Delta is bringing large number of widebodies to the combined airline.

 

[Turtle21]

By LIZ FEDOR, Star Tribune

..."It is at risk by a handful, just a couple of renegade Northwest Airlines pilots

WTF. just a couple?

Yeah... Just like "a couple" pilots in favor of USAPA.

The "news source" must have been an ALPA spokesperson.:laugh:

 

[justin15e]

Can someone answer a few ?'s for me since I'm relatively new to this whole industry?

1) How is it that people think that merging seniority lists based on DOH is fair since DOH between 2 different companies is arbitrary?

Also, I've heard this argument a few times here too...

Any newhires hired after the last major industry downturn (9/11) should be put after anyone that was hired prior, no matter where they stand on their current companies seniority list (percentage wise).

2) It seems to me that if you maintain your relative seniority +/- a % point or two, thats all you can ask for in a merger. How is this not the fairest way to do things? It seems to me there are a lot of money grubbing people out there who would like for the opposing company (and the merger) to pay them back for everything they lost in the downturn.

 

[Turtle21]

Can someone answer a few ?'s for me since I'm relatively new to this whole industry?

1) How is it that people think that merging seniority lists based on DOH is fair since DOH between 2 different companies is arbitrary?

Also, I've heard this argument a few times here too...

Any newhires hired after the last major industry downturn (9/11) should be put after anyone that was hired prior, no matter where they stand on their current companies seniority list (percentage wise).

2) It seems to me that if you maintain your relative seniority +/- a % point or two, thats all you can ask for in a merger. How is this not the fairest way to do things? It seems to me there are a lot of money grubbing people out there who would like for the opposing company (and the merger) to pay them back for everything they lost in the downturn.

When I was flying in the military I didn't know what the hell was going on in the airlines either.:beer:

 

[Sparse]

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

 

[michael707767]

When I was flying in the military I didn't know what the hell was going on in the airlines either.:beer:

tell us how he got it wrong?

 

[PuffDriver]

Thanks to the spineless members of the Delta MEC, the NWA pilots will be the only Delta pilots to have a defined benefit retirement plan in place. I hate to say it but the Delta pilots will get what they negotiate for, and based on the outcome of the past few years, they will get little.

Ya really want to go there? I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

As for the retirement, the amount of money I received for the termination will actually turn into more money than i would receive in todays rates, and it is in my name. What's more, Delta is putting 11% of my annual salary into a retirement also in my name without me contributing a dime. What percentage is your DB frozen?

I suggest that you drop this conversation before you get your butt beat, and badly.

 

[Schwanker]

tell us how he got it wrong?

How about DAL merge with Skywest: Are you in favor of relative seniority?

It doesn't necessarily balance career expectations. DAL just had a large majority of their pilots age 52 and over leave significantly improving relative seniority. This will result in minimal changes in seniority number for the next 13 years with age 65.

NWA on the other hand have lots of pilots 55 and over who will retire short term due to the age 60 pension surviving the BK.

This combination skews relative seniority between the 2 carriers when put in the context of career expections. To balance this, maybe the snapshot should be taken 13 years into the future when DAL retirements catch up with NWA retirements as a percentage of their individual lists.

 

[michael707767]

How about DAL merge with Skywest: Are you in favor of relative seniority?

yes. But I guess it depends on how you define relative seniority. I don't think it's a straight percentage, that's what I would call a percentage merger.

 

[DTW320]

I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

A thousand?!?!?!??? Really???. Wow. You MUST have seen a different TA comparison than I did a couple of years ago....

 

[xray678]

NWA on the other hand have lots of pilots 55 and over who will retire short term due to the age 60 pension surviving the BK.

This combination skews relative seniority between the 2 carriers when put in the context of career expections. To balance this, maybe the snapshot should be taken 13 years into the future when DAL retirements catch up with NWA retirements as a percentage of their individual lists.

First of all, you are only speculating on guys retiring at 60. What if they don't?

A snapshot 13 years from now would be unfair too. I mean, the Delta pilots are bringing well over 100 widebodies to the table. DOH, or anything close to it, would mean for a long, long time every vacancy that occurs on a Delta widebody would be filled by a NWA pilot. Figuring a way to protect the advancement of a NWA pilot to a widebody is fine. But don't stop the Delta guys from advancing to a widebody in the process.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

That's great. You have a lot of old planes, and krappy bases. Where do you think our new 777LRs will be going as we get them? We get 6 new ones within 3 months later this year. We will overfly NRT and go nonstop, probably from LAX and ATL. I have a feeling our .2% will rise a bit, eh? But according to you, DL will be empty because NWA is so well known and really the "home town favorite" in Japan, at least according to your NRT gate agents.......whatever...

Bye Bye--General Lee

So General,

Why is it that you usually seem to do pretty good research and, despite your tone of often being a complete tool, you make a case for many of your positions with numbers and data, but you seem to support Lee Moak with nothing but blind love and devotion?

Moak pounds his chest in public, and in letters from the chief, how powerful he/DALPA is, but what if he's getting it wrong behind closed doors? Everyone there giving him carte blanche? If DAL/NW falls apart because of too much Moak, then what? Who loses in the end.

Might it not be possible his strong arm strategy is flawed? Kind of like you were wrong in predicting DAL would be on the sideline until someone else got on the merger train?

Hoping you call me a "dork" again ... I think that was my favortie GL response. Regards,

BD

 

[michael707767]

Moak pounds his chest in public, and in letters from the chief, how powerful he/DALPA is, but what if he's getting it wrong behind closed doors? Everyone there giving him carte blanche? If DAL/NW falls apart because of too much Moak, then what? Who loses in the end.

Hedge funds.

The question to me is who wins if this falls apart. If Moak kills this deal, I would start to support him again. At best....at best, the pilots of Delta and Northwest will break even in this deal. At worst we could have 2000 furloughs and career stagnation for years if this goes through. Sorry, but I don't see any positives in this merger....certainly not for the Delta pilots.

 

[Diesel-9]

I can point to probably about a thousand places that the NWA pilots would have to be brought up to par with the Delta pilots with regard to the rest of the contract other than retirement.

I have our MEC T.A. comparison and the National ALPA NWA/DAL Merger Analysis. Contracts are still very close. Pay at NWA maybe 8-10% lower but a frozen pension because of that. NWA has much better sick leave and Disability Retirement. Over the last 20 years the contracts are so similar. Had it not been for the NWA '98 strike, UAL and DAL wouldn't have had the opportunity to get the big raises they did. I showed the documents to a couple local DAL guys and they seemed surprised at all the info I had. And was my experience in the Reserves with all the airline guys, the DAL guys were usually the least knowledgeable on industry comparisons or less informed from their MEC.