NWA, Delta pilot clash blocking merger

[Voice Of Reason]

First off, I think this "unnamed source" is full of B.S. Just trying to stir up a $hit-$torm.

Ford & Harrison is a union busting law firm that airlines hire to stir up just this kind of thing. Do a search on "Flight Options" and Continental Airlines to see these tactics. (Delta's EVP of Human Resources if a founding father of Ford & Harrison, going there after "retiring" from destroying pilot benefits at Continental. They are MOST visible right now at Flight Options, but in the case of DL this guy takes an HR position, and can quietly disrupt everything.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308

 

[clippyrip]

I second what Schwanker said.

The idea that NWA has nothing to offer and would be lucky to join Delta is horse pucky. If it was so easy to over fly us to Asia, then what is the hold up? We're making plenty of cash and can go on our own just fine, we don't need to drop trousers and say thanks. As a Newer NWA pilot I'm not real interested in having a bunch of year old Delta pilots get in our line and get upgraded on our future retirements. 50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing. Things are bright up here in the North. And as a Northerner, the Delta bases hold no appeal. So toss that argument.

 

[michael707767]

50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing.

So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.

 

[General Lee]

GL,
First off, I think this "unnamed source" is full of B.S. Just trying to stir up a $hit-$torm. The only way I can see a propasal for 3000 DAL pilots to be stapled if it was a counter to an equally ridiculous offer from the DAL side.

As far as retirements; they do have play with respect to career expections. Maybe a projected snapshot 10 years from now would help with what career expections look like.

I wouldn't be too quick to dis the NWA fleet. DAL has a lot of aircraft in the 757/767 category. Don't great me wrong--great aircraft, but I wouldn't say our entire seniority list is completely salivating over them as some DAL types would lead you to believe. Beyond that, DAL only has 8 (EIGHT) 777's with 8 (I think) on order. Compare that with 30 747's, 32 A-330's, and potentially 68 787's. They're all superior to all DAL aircraft with the exception of the 8 777's. I'll grant you the pay rates need to be fixed--and they will whether its via a merger or our next contract negotiations. Unfortunately, we sold out to save the retirement plan. The 68 DC-9's will be around until a 100 seat replacement is found. There is no way around it with the current scope--unless they start parking the E-175s/CRJ-900's (no chance). There is no reason to replace the paid for aircraft which have years of service left in them. It would cost $30-$40 per seat per segment more to replace them with new aircraft. It makes no sense. Why not wait until the next generation 100 seaters come to market before sinking the new capital, especially when what you have is working.

I too hope for a fair seniority integration. I wouldn't bite off on this unnamed source. If this whole merger all falls apart, who cares. Contract repair will come the next time around. Our pilot group is pissed, and those who will be left at that time will walk if our rates aren't on par with industry leaders.

Schwanker

I am glad you too hope for fair integration. I think almost all of us do. As far as our fleets go, you forgot our 767-400ERs (we have 21) that pay a lot more than your A330s. We have them mostly flying to Europe, with 2 a day going to HNL from ATL also. We even have one flight a day starting in March from ATL to SVO (Moscow) nonstop. It has great cargo capability compared to the 767-300ER, with pretty good range (enough to go to Moscow from ATL), and our executives love it for Europe. We are getting 2 777LRs this month (both going to BOM from JFK nonstop--while the 777ERs they will replace will fly from ATL to PVG (Shanghai) nonstop on March 31st) and another at the end of this year.

As far as your fleet goes, your 742s have been pulled out of normal pax service (one is flying MAC charters), and the rest 12 (you had 13 but one was chopped for spares) are doing the Cargo stuff in ANC. They may be on the way out sooner than later, thanks to other cargo carriers ditching them quickly (UPS, who has plenty of cash, is getting rid of theirs). So, looking at your 742s going, your 744s possibly taking over the cargo runs (hopefully you will find a replacement for the lost DHL lift), and the DC9s leaving (30 dash 30s this year alone, with 68 more pending total), and no current 787s on property (or any property--delays are still occuring with the first one built), your fleet is not set in stone.

I understand your feelings about the DC9s staying, and maybe you are right. Supposed big wigs down here in ATL (your potential bosses) are saying they will get rid of the DC9s. If that is true, you are not bringing those to the table for all of us to share. You are bringing planes that will leave. Maybe MD90s could replace them and act as a stopgap until new 737s could be brouht online. Nobody knows.

Again, you state you have 30 747s (12 or 14 of them are on the way out), 32 A330s, and 787s that aren't here yet, and could be delayed more. We are getting firm 777LRs, and 6 will come in a 3 month period. The first two are flying now--already in Delta paint. That would mean you have 50 widebodies that could stay, and more that hope to arrive within the next 10 years.

I know your guys are pissed, so are ours. We took a
47% paycut, and lost the pension. (yes, we did get some cash payout) We see this as Northwest guys getting a pay raise (double digits while we get a modest raise), getting our better work rules, and keeping their pensions, while getting better bases to eventually bid to. All of that for you, and not much for us except the chance to fly a bus someday. SLI a bit more in our favor would give us something after you got a lot more. Fences will probably help too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.

DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%

 

[clippyrip]

So potentially we could all wait up to 13 years before we see any significant movement from all the retirements you talk about. In that time, large amounts of retirements kick in at Delta too.

Over the next 13 years if every NWA pilot went to 65, which will not happen because of the pension setup, we would see all the top 50% retire. It would not start then, it would be done.

 

[michael707767]

DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%

Your numbers are off a little, But I didn't say we have the same retirements as you. I said in 13 years large numbers of retirements kick in. From 2021 to 2025 we retire almost 2200 pilots.


In the next 13 years I would rather have our combo of growth and retirement that your combo of the two.

 

[NYRANGERS]

I second what Schwanker said.

The idea that NWA has nothing to offer and would be lucky to join Delta is horse pucky. If it was so easy to over fly us to Asia, then what is the hold up? We're making plenty of cash and can go on our own just fine, we don't need to drop trousers and say thanks. As a Newer NWA pilot I'm not real interested in having a bunch of year old Delta pilots get in our line and get upgraded on our future retirements. 50% of our work force is 52 years old or older. That is one of the reasons NWA is appealing. Things are bright up here in the North. And as a Northerner, the Delta bases hold no appeal. So toss that argument.

I think you might be missing my point. I am not saying that NWA doesn't offer DAL a great deal in a merger. I am saying there is no benefit to the Delta pilots. All of the 'where we fly, what we fly" stuff is up to management. I am merely saying that if the Delta pilots don't get favorable SLI, then there is absolutly no reason to merge....from a pilot standpoint. Hopefully you will enjoy a great career at NWA....hope this deal is dead soon...

 

[Superpilot92]

Ford & Harrison is a union busting law firm that airlines hire to stir up just this kind of thing. Do a search on "Flight Options" and Continental Airlines to see these tactics. (Delta's EVP of Human Resources if a founding father of Ford & Harrison, going there after "retiring" from destroying pilot benefits at Continental. They are MOST visible right now at Flight Options, but in the case of DL this guy takes an HR position, and can quietly disrupt everything.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308

That Thread is a BIG read and everyone should read about this prior to getting to bent.

 

[FDJ2]

DAL age 65 required retirements between now and 2020: 1003 / 7123 (Current List As of 1 Jan 2008) = 14%

Through 2020 DAL has 1,259 retirements.

1,712 through 2021, 2,244 through 2022.

I believe after 2021 there are significantly more DAL retirements each year than NWA.

I guess it depends on where you want to take your snap shot as to who has more retirements.