NWA DC-9's

[~~~^~~~]

As oil and jetfuel continue to go up the CASM metrics actually invert and it's more efficient to fly the gas guzzling 9's over the 50 seat CRJ's.

IOW, it is more revenue positive (or less of a loss) to fly 1 120 seat DC9 over 2 50 seat CRJ frequencies on the same route.

You and a lot of others are dreaming that fuel takes care of our scope problem, it does not. The CRJ200 is borderline more efficient than the DC9-32/50. The 700/900 versions are clearly more efficient than a 9, CASM, Fuel PSM, how ever you want to cut it.

As fuel prices go up the lease costs on the RJ's are more easily justified by the fuel savings and revenue spread (fewer seats=higher prices).

Don't believe me, obtain the data from ALPA's EF&A, or PM me you e-mail address and I'll see if I can find my old copy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It may be more efficient, but DAL is one of the few carriers that actually owns a regional. For the other majors, even NWA as a stand alone carrier, they've been able to negotiate lower contracts with the regionals (ie. CAL and XJT)--you can thank SKYWEST and MESA. As long as the regionals remain profitable (most are doing better than their major counterpart), it's still cheaper to use them over mainline aircraft. Other than leasing the aircraft to MESABA, PINNICLE, or COMPASS, NWA does not save any money by replacing a DC9 on an RJ route. They are separate busnesses and do not share the same finances. Now, if they merge with DAL, that's another story--it's not a done deal yet.

What? Not sure I follow your logic that "as long as the regionals remain profitable NWA does not save any money by replacing a DC9."

Costs are costs, regardless of if it is a operating lease on a fee for departure basis, or buying fuel for your own jets. It does not matter who you write the check to.

The immediate benefits to outsourcing are:

1. Huge upfront cash payments for long term contracts. SkyWest paid Delta $425,000,000. Republic paid US Air $3X,000,000 (still checking figure) and there are other examples.
2. Off balance sheet purchasing of narrowbody domestic jets
3. Off balance sheet depreciation of obsolete equipment
4. Labor whipsaw - mainline pilots think they have to "buy" their flying. Have you seen Delta's rates on small jets?
5. Destruction of longevity. New hires now fly 767's. Those used to be 10 year pilots who had flown DC9's. Now pilots spend ten years at the regionals and lose the longevity they need to increase their pay & time off.

In Delta's case, Delta was about to enter bankruptcy and almost lost their ability to process credit card transactions due to failing liquidity. Jerry Atkin at SkyWest waited until exactly the right moment to save Delta Airlines by buying ASA when the Delta so desperately needed the cash that they signed a 15 year deal with provisions favorable to SkyWest.

In effect, Delta burned the furniture to remain warm during the winter.

SkyWest's profits do not help Delta - They harm Delta. These are profits that should be Delta's profits and ASA has always been one of the most profitable airlines on the planet Earth, despite their multitude of problems.

ASA contributed to Delta's bottom line at a 15% to as high as 25% margin, that is great money in this business.

I have no doubt that Delta could operate ASA / Comair / SkyWest / Shuttle America / Mesa / Freedom / Express Jet / Republic more profitably in house with Delta new hires. However, Delta management has (and will need) the quick fix of getting cash now for future flying awards, as well as the off balance sheet acquisition of narrowbody domestic jets.

Nothing about this trend makes Delta more profitable over the long term. Delta is still a domestic airline and outsourcing the majority of your narrow body domestic flying at cost plus profit is not a good long term strategy IMHO.

I'm hoping management sees this too and is correcting. However, I do not think the DC9 is the aircraft for the mission. The 737 is an interim jet for now. The tempting short term fix will to put this flying off balance sheet to leased aircraft & crews until a really compelling 100 seat jet is invented, THEN, I PRAY we have the money to buy it.

 

[Speedtape]

As oil and jetfuel continue to go up the CASM metrics actually invert and it's more efficient to fly the gas guzzling 9's over the 50 seat CRJ's.

IOW, it is more revenue positive (or less of a loss) to fly 1 120 seat DC9 over 2 50 seat CRJ frequencies on the same route.

The answer to your argument is not that simple. First, you assume that people are standing in line to board your one DC9 at the time that it is scheduled. Second, you might not know that every seat pays a different fare. Third, usually, the more seats or larger the plane, the more seats that have to be discounted to fill the plane. It is very possible to have 2, 50 seaters with a higher number of undiscounted seats that would still make more money than 1 DC9 that has to discount 40% of the seats to get the load factor up.

Delta's focus is to avoid discounting and/or "fire sales" on the internet to fill seats at the last moment to fill seats. From historical data, they know how many high yield seats are travelling out of a given market and, further refined, the times of day that these passengers travel. They do a great job of matching the right-sized airplane to those markets, at the right time of day--keeping the load factors high, but more importantly capturing a high percentage of the high-yield tickets.

In addition, to improve efficiencies, they adjust the frequencies on different low travel days which is another integral part in capturing high yield traffic and keeping costs down. Unfortunately, this practice affects pairings and impacts the ability to build better schedules for you and me. However, it saves money.

In conclusion, their planning involves using many tools and resources to extract the most efficient money making operation possible. These are things they can control or manipulate. This involves right-sizing airplanes depending on many variables. To make a simple statement that a DC9 is more efficient than 2, 50 seaters that leave at two different times is overly simplistic and not always
true. If it was true, don't you think they would have figured it out by now?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Boyd's interesting observation:

The Boyd Group estimates that if American Airlines could wave a magic wand and replace all its MD-80s with 737-700s, the net to the carrier, including ownership costs, would be over $600 million annually to the plus side.

 

[iaflyer]

Boyd's interesting observation:

The Boyd Group estimates that if American Airlines could wave a magic wand and replace all its MD-80s with 737-700s, the net to the carrier, including ownership costs, would be over $600 million annually to the plus side.

Yeah, but they may not be able to get access to money to make the transition. They should, and they probably know they should but it's easier said than done.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Point being that the replacements for the DC9 will easily pay for their acquisition costs, whether they be RJ's, 737's, or a next gen 100 seater.

 

[Fly4hire]

You and a lot of others are dreaming that fuel takes care of our scope problem, it does not.

Uh.. I wasn't even remotely discussing Scope, or RJDC

The CRAG is borderline more efficient than the DC9-32/50. The 700/900 versions are clearly more efficient than a 9, CAMS, Fuel PSM, how ever you want to cut it.

Is that why everyone is looking to dump 50 seat capacity right now? Indy Air and now Express Jet are glowing examples of the profitability of CRJ's

As fuel prices go up the lease costs on the RJ's are more easily justified by the fuel savings and revenue spread (fewer seats=higher prices).

Hint: You work for a major now - you want more mainline aircraft and less RJ's.

Better hope if you are right that NWA gets flow down to Compass for the DAL pilots as well in a joint contract.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I do want more mainline jets. However, whether they are a "mainline" or "RJ" is an entirely arbitrary term (as it always has been) which is determined by ALPA.

ALPA Reps, at least on the Delta property, have been talking like scope does not matter because of the economics of the RJ. However, ALPA's own data indicates that this is a mistaken conclusion.

Fly4hire - you hit on the reason I look forward to a joint DAL/NWA contract. Because we need Compass on the list and we need this flying defined as "mainline" flying.

You use Express Jet as a example of failure. However, Jerry Atkin working to purchase Express and has demanded the XJT violate their scope clause and merger language in their CBA to do the deal. There is a lot of potential left in XJT and SkyWest's 50 seat operation is expanding with Continental based on the letters that were leaked.

Again, I look forward to NWA pilots' involvement in a joint contract, particularly on Section 1.

 

[Fly4hire]

Hey ~~~^~~~,

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily...?chan=top+news_top+news+index_news+++analysis

The soaring cost of fuel is making short-haul flights uneconomical for regional jets. So a new generation of turboprops is selling briskly


Alaska Air Group's (ALK) regional subsidiary, Horizon Air, announced on Apr. 24 that it would convert its entire fleet to Bombardier's 76-seat Q400 prop within two years.....

...The backbone of U.S. regional flying, the 50-seat jet, made a splash in the 1990s as a way for airlines to serve smaller destinations and to bolster frequencies on heavy-traffic routes. The higher fuel-burn rates of jets wasn't much of a factor then, since crude oil traded below $12 per barrel in late 1998 and didn't breach $40 until 2004. On Apr. 29, crude was at $115.61 a barrel, a day after setting a new record of $119.93. This explains why the 50-seat jet has become a financial albatross on many routes....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fly4hire:

Thanks. The ATR72 burns a lot less than the Q400. But, Delta is phasing those out this fall.

Q400 issues, for Delta are (were as of 24 months ago):
(1) Not as operationally flexible as a large RJ
(2) Has the ramp footprint of a 737-800 (big, straight wings with a long tube)
(3) Doors do not work with the jetway re-re-re-design in Atlanta

Also, some of the ATR's had the equipment for the NVH cancelling cabin. The system broke and was never repaired on any of them.

 

[knowlimits]

Brownie, According to ALPA E&FA and the DAL Negotiators, NWA pilots are the "most efficient" of all the Legacy airlines.

A transition to DAL's 24.B would require about 300 more pilots to staff our our own fleet.

If you're doing 4-5 legs on the 'Bus...ur doing it wrong!

Under the DL contract too, NWA pilots would have to add a lot of new Widebody Captain jobs, thanks to currently having 1 Captain and 3 FOs on Ultra long haul flights, vs Delta's 2 Captains and 2 FOs. I would think some of those 787s would come under that rule, along with some 747-400 flights. How about a "thank ya" to the Delta pilots, eh? Where's the love?

 

[JAM-BRO]

Thank you and I love u so much.....

Under the DL contract too, NWA pilots would have to add a lot of new Widebody Captain jobs, thanks to currently having 1 Captain and 3 FOs on Ultra long haul flights, vs Delta's 2 Captains and 2 FOs. I would think some of those 787s would come under that rule, along with some 747-400 flights. How about a "thank ya" to the Delta pilots, eh? Where's the love?

 

[knowlimits]

Thank you and I love u so much.....

You sound like the male flight attendant I was dancing with at my SFO layover last night. The clubs there are hot!

 

[nwaredtail]

Pretty sure ANY contract improvements will be had by the NWA NG committee and DAL management. The Delta boys won't have anything to do with it, for the time being.

Sounds to me like the DAL contract is a bit "rich". My bet is it won't be so good in the coming months.

 

[knowlimits]

Pretty sure ANY contract improvements will be had by the NWA NG committee and DAL management. The Delta boys won't have anything to do with it, for the time being.

Sounds to me like the DAL contract is a bit "rich". My bet is it won't be so good in the coming months.

You guys already accepted less to save your senior guys a frozen pension, so you probably will continue that. Delaying the inevitable has already cost your group and the Delta group a lot of money, and it seems your group can't get it's act together. It really sounds like you have very unprepared negotiators.

 

[Sedona16]

Say what you want but had the Delta Pilots not anchored some sort of pay raise/equity when they did that conversation now, be it with Delta or NWA pilots with management would not be happening.

The Northwest MEC want to arbitrate so lets get that underway. To be honest with you I am not sure why the Delta MEC changed their mind on arbitration. I generally think arbitration is a bad idea and you dont have to look very far to see why.

 

[FDJ2]

The Northwest MEC want to arbitrate so lets get that underway. To be honest with you I am not sure why the Delta MEC changed their mind on arbitration. I generally think arbitration is a bad idea and you dont have to look very far to see why.

The Delta MEC didn't change its mind on arbitration. The Delta MEC has never been afraid of arbitration, that's an urban myth. The reality is that negotiated results are much more acceptable to the overwhelming number of pilots than arbitrated results. Just look at the results of the Roberts award and Nicolau award and then compare them to the results from the DAL/Western integration.

Anyone who would prefer arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

Since we are now in a post announcement world, a PID is very likely down the road and with ALPA merger policy either side can force it into arbitration. Given NWA MEC's merger committee's preference for arbitration over negotiation and their history of arbitration over negotiation, it's a reasonable assumption that unfortunately both pilot groups will be dragged through the adversarial and divisive process of arbitration. While the Delta pilots would prefer a negotiated result, we accept that arbitration is very likely.

 

[PuffDriver]

The Delta MEC didn't change its mind on arbitration. The Delta MEC has never been afraid of arbitration, that's an urban myth. The reality is that negotiated results are much more acceptable to the overwhelming number of pilots than arbitrated results. Just look at the results of the Roberts award and Nicolau award and then compare them to the results from the DAL/Western integration.

Anyone who would prefer arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

Since we are now in a post announcement world, a PID is very likely down the road and with ALPA merger policy either side can force it into arbitration. Given NWA MEC's merger committee's preference for arbitration over negotiation and their history of arbitration over negotiation, it's a reasonable assumption that unfortunately both pilot groups will be dragged through the adversarial and divisive process of arbitration. While the Delta pilots would prefer a negotiated result, we accept that arbitration is very likely.

That is pretty much it, except to add that Arbitration will ONLY take place within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

..and they are going to get creamed

 

[Soulfly]

No they wont. They will just create a new upstart union. Then pretend the arbitration award doesn't exist.

Then they wil say it does exist, but try to negotiate around, above and below it.

No one would try that. Would they?

 

[Fly4hire]

That is pretty much it, except to add that Arbitration will ONLY take place within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

..and they are going to get creamed

Puff,

The problem you FDJC, and other I have talked to is you believe everything you are being told.

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

The problem you FDJC, and other I have talked to is you believe everything you are being told.

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

It's pretty cut and dried, really. I have been told nothing. It just stands to reason. The past is the past, the future is the future. We can change neither. You cannot recoup the fruits of our retirement, and you cannot recoup the fruits of some pilots that might retire, nor can we. So we are where we are. We have two like groups, yet one is more senior than the other in terms of age but not seniority. We have the widebodies, true that they are not "premium" widebodies, and they pay more than your premium, widebodies. With a working agreement in place prior to the SLI list, hostages will not be able to be taken, and a contract will not be held in abeyance as a penalty for an "unfair" award.

Your words may state that a mutually negotiated list is preferrable, but your MEC actions indicate otherwise. So they will stand their ground, unless that ground actually shows Delta pilots unwittingly coming out ahead, then they will back up even further. This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

 

[clippyrip]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

 

[Fly4hire]

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

 

[PuffDriver]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

I'm not waiting until you breakdown and say that I am right. It really doesn't matter who is right, but WHAT is right. Time will prove both. In short, the NWA MEc tried to grab the money, grab the seniority, AND grab the reitrements. T'aint going to fly

 

[DTW320]

This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

 

[PuffDriver]

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

Not part of the MEC, nor will I be. They don't want me. There is no excuse for "grabbing" something, because we are not. We have been fair about this from day 1. All the while "working with" and MEC who has tried to do the grabbing, got denied, disappeared, and then acts shocked that things could move along without them.

Is it any wonder that such deriliction of duty could have any other recourse other than to paint the other side as "scabs"? Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

 

[PuffDriver]

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

Actually, "getting creamed" is from the viewpoint of the NWA pilots--from a standpoint of your vision-not mine. It's funny that you think a fair proposal from the Delta pilots is equivalent of climbing the gallows. thus you feel that if an arbitrator gave a list resembling a Delta proposal that you would feel as if you got creamed. I would call it a very fair list, and in the same manner feel as if I got creamed.

Get it now?

 

[clippyrip]

Another volley from the brick wall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

Relative seniority seems fair to me and I do not understand why it is deemed "unfair" by the NWA side. Can you (or one of the NWA guys) explain in very simple terms (that I can understand) why relative senioirity is such a non starter?

From my seat, a merger into bigger, better paying, equipment in an operation run by a more pilot friendly management seems like a win, win, win. Delta sure seems like (from here) as a whole lot better place to work. I know that is a separate issue than seniority, but it fits into the equation of job satisfaction. Why wouldn't you want "relative seniority" into a better deal?

Many past arbitrations have gone by pay and equipment type (similar to relative seniority by equipment). If (big IF) something like that happened it would be ugly.

As long as there is no bump, no flush and I can keep ATL, I'll be happy. Status quo all they way....

 

[DTW320]

Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

Gee, is that "icing" anything like DALPA wanting to put junior NWA pilots below future DAL hires? Yeah, someone will be "getting their pee-pee wacked"/"creamed"/insert lame attempt at sounding cool and confident here. HINT: It will most likely be the side that has been putting everything in writing.