NWA DC-9's

[Sedona16]

Say what you want but had the Delta Pilots not anchored some sort of pay raise/equity when they did that conversation now, be it with Delta or NWA pilots with management would not be happening.

The Northwest MEC want to arbitrate so lets get that underway. To be honest with you I am not sure why the Delta MEC changed their mind on arbitration. I generally think arbitration is a bad idea and you dont have to look very far to see why.

 

[FDJ2]

The Northwest MEC want to arbitrate so lets get that underway. To be honest with you I am not sure why the Delta MEC changed their mind on arbitration. I generally think arbitration is a bad idea and you dont have to look very far to see why.

The Delta MEC didn't change its mind on arbitration. The Delta MEC has never been afraid of arbitration, that's an urban myth. The reality is that negotiated results are much more acceptable to the overwhelming number of pilots than arbitrated results. Just look at the results of the Roberts award and Nicolau award and then compare them to the results from the DAL/Western integration.

Anyone who would prefer arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

Since we are now in a post announcement world, a PID is very likely down the road and with ALPA merger policy either side can force it into arbitration. Given NWA MEC's merger committee's preference for arbitration over negotiation and their history of arbitration over negotiation, it's a reasonable assumption that unfortunately both pilot groups will be dragged through the adversarial and divisive process of arbitration. While the Delta pilots would prefer a negotiated result, we accept that arbitration is very likely.

 

[PuffDriver]

The Delta MEC didn't change its mind on arbitration. The Delta MEC has never been afraid of arbitration, that's an urban myth. The reality is that negotiated results are much more acceptable to the overwhelming number of pilots than arbitrated results. Just look at the results of the Roberts award and Nicolau award and then compare them to the results from the DAL/Western integration.

Anyone who would prefer arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

Since we are now in a post announcement world, a PID is very likely down the road and with ALPA merger policy either side can force it into arbitration. Given NWA MEC's merger committee's preference for arbitration over negotiation and their history of arbitration over negotiation, it's a reasonable assumption that unfortunately both pilot groups will be dragged through the adversarial and divisive process of arbitration. While the Delta pilots would prefer a negotiated result, we accept that arbitration is very likely.

That is pretty much it, except to add that Arbitration will ONLY take place within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

..and they are going to get creamed

 

[Soulfly]

No they wont. They will just create a new upstart union. Then pretend the arbitration award doesn't exist.

Then they wil say it does exist, but try to negotiate around, above and below it.

No one would try that. Would they?

 

[Fly4hire]

That is pretty much it, except to add that Arbitration will ONLY take place within the bounds of ALPA merger policy.

..and they are going to get creamed

Puff,

The problem you FDJC, and other I have talked to is you believe everything you are being told.

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

The problem you FDJC, and other I have talked to is you believe everything you are being told.

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

A mutually negotiated SLI is far preferable, but as evidenced by the typical hubris I see here and talking to other DAL pilots does not lend itself to a negotiated deal. I hope I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't think we'll be the ones getting creamed, however If we do it will be no worse than the terms you want to dictate to the NW pilots, and will probably be far better.

It's pretty cut and dried, really. I have been told nothing. It just stands to reason. The past is the past, the future is the future. We can change neither. You cannot recoup the fruits of our retirement, and you cannot recoup the fruits of some pilots that might retire, nor can we. So we are where we are. We have two like groups, yet one is more senior than the other in terms of age but not seniority. We have the widebodies, true that they are not "premium" widebodies, and they pay more than your premium, widebodies. With a working agreement in place prior to the SLI list, hostages will not be able to be taken, and a contract will not be held in abeyance as a penalty for an "unfair" award.

Your words may state that a mutually negotiated list is preferrable, but your MEC actions indicate otherwise. So they will stand their ground, unless that ground actually shows Delta pilots unwittingly coming out ahead, then they will back up even further. This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

 

[clippyrip]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

 

[Fly4hire]

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

 

[PuffDriver]

.....................


why bother, its like playing tennis with a brick wall.

I'm not waiting until you breakdown and say that I am right. It really doesn't matter who is right, but WHAT is right. Time will prove both. In short, the NWA MEc tried to grab the money, grab the seniority, AND grab the reitrements. T'aint going to fly

 

[DTW320]

This will go to arbitration under ALPA merger policy, and the SLI will come away looking strikingly similar to what the Delta pilots have proposed.

BTW-I appreciate your admission that you have stymied the negotiations as "you will do no worse in arbitration anyway". Your idiocy will have cost us at minimum some great contractual gains, equity, and other penalties yet to be determined.

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

 

[PuffDriver]

More of your MEC standard talking points.

Is this the excuse you will use to grab for more since we supposedly cost you something?

How's about "we get on board the train cause' it's leaving with or without us", or "we need to get used to the DAL culture"? Sure, RA is your friend - you have him all straightened out.

Keep believing everything you are told - you guys are in for a very rude surprise.

Not part of the MEC, nor will I be. They don't want me. There is no excuse for "grabbing" something, because we are not. We have been fair about this from day 1. All the while "working with" and MEC who has tried to do the grabbing, got denied, disappeared, and then acts shocked that things could move along without them.

Is it any wonder that such deriliction of duty could have any other recourse other than to paint the other side as "scabs"? Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

 

[PuffDriver]

There you go again Puff, just like before, you admit that tha DALPA SLI proposal = NWALPA "getting creamed". You said if it goes to arbitration we will get creamed. Then you say that if we go to arbitration it will end up "strikingly similar" to what DALPA proposed. Excuse me, but if those are truly the odds, then I'll take my chances with an arbitrator vs VOLUNTARILY accepting "getting creamed" by DALPA, which is exactly what it would amount to if we took your last proposal. Call it "idiocy" if you want, but I think the truth is that compared to your SLI offer we stand a much better chance with arbitration. Sorry that by waiting for the last appeal to be heard vs voluntarily climbing the gallows we cost you some "great contractual gains". How can we ever make it up to you?

I'm glad that the vast majority of DAL pilots I've talked to on the line, on hotel vans, and commuting have a completely different attitude about all of this than you do.

Actually, "getting creamed" is from the viewpoint of the NWA pilots--from a standpoint of your vision-not mine. It's funny that you think a fair proposal from the Delta pilots is equivalent of climbing the gallows. thus you feel that if an arbitrator gave a list resembling a Delta proposal that you would feel as if you got creamed. I would call it a very fair list, and in the same manner feel as if I got creamed.

Get it now?

 

[clippyrip]

Another volley from the brick wall.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The NW MEC does not prefer arbitration, however arbitration may be a preferable alternative to the grossly lopsided deal you want to impose on the NW pilots.

Relative seniority seems fair to me and I do not understand why it is deemed "unfair" by the NWA side. Can you (or one of the NWA guys) explain in very simple terms (that I can understand) why relative senioirity is such a non starter?

From my seat, a merger into bigger, better paying, equipment in an operation run by a more pilot friendly management seems like a win, win, win. Delta sure seems like (from here) as a whole lot better place to work. I know that is a separate issue than seniority, but it fits into the equation of job satisfaction. Why wouldn't you want "relative seniority" into a better deal?

Many past arbitrations have gone by pay and equipment type (similar to relative seniority by equipment). If (big IF) something like that happened it would be ugly.

As long as there is no bump, no flush and I can keep ATL, I'll be happy. Status quo all they way....

 

[DTW320]

Wanting your cake, my cake, future cakes, and all of the icing won't fly, and you will get your pee-pee wacked in arbitration under merger policy for suggesting so.

Gee, is that "icing" anything like DALPA wanting to put junior NWA pilots below future DAL hires? Yeah, someone will be "getting their pee-pee wacked"/"creamed"/insert lame attempt at sounding cool and confident here. HINT: It will most likely be the side that has been putting everything in writing.