Lear70
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NW scabs
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Quote from Diezl8:
"As for the non union enviroment at jetblue, it is that and it is what it is. Have jetblue caused the problems current at NWA, I think that would be stretching the truth. From a route perspective, I see few places indeed, where there is an overlap."
All LCC's have caused problems at all legacy carriers. They were eroding prior to 9-11 and after 9-11 they were hit with lack of business travel, lack of travel in general, fuel prices, SARS, and rising competition from the LCCs. Of course, it is a given that management was not up to the task of reacting properly to these challenges, but they were/are challenges. The challenge of competing with the LCC's is a real one. It gives legacy carriers management something to point to when it is negotiating pay and benefits. I think you will see in my post that I mentioned "Jetblue Airtran Spirit Independence Air etc." and later when I mentioned Jetblue I said "I really do not understand why, if you feel that our mechanics should be honored for their leaderships poor strategy, you do not understand that it is the mechanics pay scale and work rules at jetblue for example, that really caused the NWA mechanics headaches?" I am not singling out Jetblue. The fact that Jetblue routes do not overlap NWA routes has no bearing. LCCs are a challenge to what many on this board loosely call "our profession"
Diezel 8 quote:
"Is jetblue the way to do things, who knows? The better example, at present, would be SWA. They do compete with NWA out of DTW and they are unionized with good compensation, so are they the ones being the spoiler or NWA or is it simply NWA management? Case in point, would be the rhetoric at U, where management kept setting the goal post lower and lower as for as which company to compare wages to and who they had to match. Spiegel did a "great" job with: "They (SWA) are coming to Philly to kill us". Of course at that
point in time U employees, IIRC, were already paid less than their counterparts at SWA."
Yes SWA is a challenge. Frankly, it is such a well run company, that it is a challenge to any company it targets. You have no argument from me here on U and US Air. The pilots did not screw up those companies, management did. Just like at NWA. When you get in these situations (like NWA is at this time) you are in a position where your negotiators are not clairvoiant. They are not perfect. They are human. The negotiators at U and US Air probably wish they had done something different in hind sight. It is up to our negotiators to learn from those mistakes, and it seems that NWA Alpa is very aware of the lessons that could be gleaned from those situations.
Posted by PSYCHO:
"WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?
Please reread post #121 by dizel8. Nwa picked off the weakest union and all of the rest are next. Mgts offer to AMFA was a precursor to the Coup de grace. I could imagine the laughter in the boardroom had AMFA capitulated " Ha, we raped them and they begged for cab fare"
And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan."
Hey PSYCHO,
That is my point. AMFA F#&KED UP. They could have worked this and blew it. It would have taken close coordination with the other unions and skilled negotiators. They were not up to the task. As for the mother ship thing, I do not think NWA Alpa is diverted by mgmt rhetoric. If striking at the correct time--which would shut down the airline and cause management extreme financial duress is the correct course of action, I am sure we will do it on terms that will bring management to their knees. NWA Alpa, and the rank and file PFAA members recognized that AMFA leadership brought their union to disaster through poor leadership.
"As for the non union enviroment at jetblue, it is that and it is what it is. Have jetblue caused the problems current at NWA, I think that would be stretching the truth. From a route perspective, I see few places indeed, where there is an overlap."
All LCC's have caused problems at all legacy carriers. They were eroding prior to 9-11 and after 9-11 they were hit with lack of business travel, lack of travel in general, fuel prices, SARS, and rising competition from the LCCs. Of course, it is a given that management was not up to the task of reacting properly to these challenges, but they were/are challenges. The challenge of competing with the LCC's is a real one. It gives legacy carriers management something to point to when it is negotiating pay and benefits. I think you will see in my post that I mentioned "Jetblue Airtran Spirit Independence Air etc." and later when I mentioned Jetblue I said "I really do not understand why, if you feel that our mechanics should be honored for their leaderships poor strategy, you do not understand that it is the mechanics pay scale and work rules at jetblue for example, that really caused the NWA mechanics headaches?" I am not singling out Jetblue. The fact that Jetblue routes do not overlap NWA routes has no bearing. LCCs are a challenge to what many on this board loosely call "our profession"
Diezel 8 quote:
"Is jetblue the way to do things, who knows? The better example, at present, would be SWA. They do compete with NWA out of DTW and they are unionized with good compensation, so are they the ones being the spoiler or NWA or is it simply NWA management? Case in point, would be the rhetoric at U, where management kept setting the goal post lower and lower as for as which company to compare wages to and who they had to match. Spiegel did a "great" job with: "They (SWA) are coming to Philly to kill us". Of course at that
point in time U employees, IIRC, were already paid less than their counterparts at SWA."
Yes SWA is a challenge. Frankly, it is such a well run company, that it is a challenge to any company it targets. You have no argument from me here on U and US Air. The pilots did not screw up those companies, management did. Just like at NWA. When you get in these situations (like NWA is at this time) you are in a position where your negotiators are not clairvoiant. They are not perfect. They are human. The negotiators at U and US Air probably wish they had done something different in hind sight. It is up to our negotiators to learn from those mistakes, and it seems that NWA Alpa is very aware of the lessons that could be gleaned from those situations.
Posted by PSYCHO:
"WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?
Please reread post #121 by dizel8. Nwa picked off the weakest union and all of the rest are next. Mgts offer to AMFA was a precursor to the Coup de grace. I could imagine the laughter in the boardroom had AMFA capitulated " Ha, we raped them and they begged for cab fare"
And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan."
Hey PSYCHO,
That is my point. AMFA F#&KED UP. They could have worked this and blew it. It would have taken close coordination with the other unions and skilled negotiators. They were not up to the task. As for the mother ship thing, I do not think NWA Alpa is diverted by mgmt rhetoric. If striking at the correct time--which would shut down the airline and cause management extreme financial duress is the correct course of action, I am sure we will do it on terms that will bring management to their knees. NWA Alpa, and the rank and file PFAA members recognized that AMFA leadership brought their union to disaster through poor leadership.
As a general note, there is a theme on this page that talks about the end result, which is that AMFA painted themselves into a corner and was given a lose lose situation. It totally ignores the fact that AMFA, at one time in this process, was in a good position. That was when ALPA extended a plan to have all unions stick together, and coordinate our efforts to put mgmt in the worst possible situation. Please do not ignore this key point. This was avoidable. AMFA was pretty new to the property and was full of "youthful ignorance" (I hate to say it but so was the PFAA--both unions had changed from IAM and Teamsters) There was emotion involved. NW mgmt could not have been handed a better hand. They were probably laughing at NW Alpa, because NW Alpa had the winning hand and both AMFA and PFAA went out on their own for reasons of emotion and departed from the winning hand. There is one thing that lawyers from Harvard Business School understand is that you want your enemy emotional.
Again, you can not just look at the end result, which is NWA mgmt proposing a 53% cut in jobs. You have to ask "How in hell did AMFA put their mechanics in this lose-lose situation?" If you follow this through the facts you will see how AMFA not only screwed themselves, but gravely wounded NW ALPA efforts to save "our profession" and all the perks you guys have/had/wish you had.
Again, you can not just look at the end result, which is NWA mgmt proposing a 53% cut in jobs. You have to ask "How in hell did AMFA put their mechanics in this lose-lose situation?" If you follow this through the facts you will see how AMFA not only screwed themselves, but gravely wounded NW ALPA efforts to save "our profession" and all the perks you guys have/had/wish you had.
I FARTED ON A SCAB
Yesterday, during my walk around, I farted on a scab. I really like that part of my day where I can go out on the ramp and stretch a little and I always like to think about people stuck in office cubicles during my walk. We are so lucky to have a windy, noisy already smelly environment. I wonder what the average Joe does when he has to let loose a gaseous blast? We are so lucky.
Ok, back to the fart. When I got to DTW, I found out the scabs are wearing blue polo shirts. When I got to the airplane, Scab 1 was checking the books. It was pretty awkward as you can imagine. I did not want to be anywhere near this guy. So I left the cockpit for my walk around--my time--a little exercise--time to fart--time to think--and who is on my ramp? Another blue shirted scab. Well it so happens that just as I stepped outside I realized that the prior days back-to-school carnival with the kids was kicking in what with the chili kraut dogs and everything, I had a volume of air in my gut that felt like a 2 liter coke bottle. Upon seeing the blue shirted scab, I sort of tensed up and forgot about my sweet release. It turned out that this guy was doing his walk around. He was going the opposite direction of me. So after a few soothing minutes of walking away from this guy, nature started taking over and the pressure started to assert itself and just as I got under the left wheel well the time was right. Well as fate would have it, just as I was about to let go, I looked back out of the wheel well and here was the scab, sort of kneeling by my ass, waiting for his turn to look into the wheel well!
Now I am not an evil man, nor do I condone cruelty to my fellow man, and I probably could have "put a cork in it" as the saying goes, but why should I have to punish myself? Why should this man, who has taken the food from another's mouth, not put up with the inherent dangers and environmental hazards that exhist on a flight line ramp?
So, I broke wind in a most convincing manner, averaging about a constant 30 psi over about 45 seconds. Think about a deflating baloon, only smelly.
I can only guess at the reaction on his face, but I excused myself and pressed on with my preflight.
Alright, it was only a squeaker but it was symbolic.
Yesterday, during my walk around, I farted on a scab. I really like that part of my day where I can go out on the ramp and stretch a little and I always like to think about people stuck in office cubicles during my walk. We are so lucky to have a windy, noisy already smelly environment. I wonder what the average Joe does when he has to let loose a gaseous blast? We are so lucky.
Ok, back to the fart. When I got to DTW, I found out the scabs are wearing blue polo shirts. When I got to the airplane, Scab 1 was checking the books. It was pretty awkward as you can imagine. I did not want to be anywhere near this guy. So I left the cockpit for my walk around--my time--a little exercise--time to fart--time to think--and who is on my ramp? Another blue shirted scab. Well it so happens that just as I stepped outside I realized that the prior days back-to-school carnival with the kids was kicking in what with the chili kraut dogs and everything, I had a volume of air in my gut that felt like a 2 liter coke bottle. Upon seeing the blue shirted scab, I sort of tensed up and forgot about my sweet release. It turned out that this guy was doing his walk around. He was going the opposite direction of me. So after a few soothing minutes of walking away from this guy, nature started taking over and the pressure started to assert itself and just as I got under the left wheel well the time was right. Well as fate would have it, just as I was about to let go, I looked back out of the wheel well and here was the scab, sort of kneeling by my ass, waiting for his turn to look into the wheel well!
Now I am not an evil man, nor do I condone cruelty to my fellow man, and I probably could have "put a cork in it" as the saying goes, but why should I have to punish myself? Why should this man, who has taken the food from another's mouth, not put up with the inherent dangers and environmental hazards that exhist on a flight line ramp?
So, I broke wind in a most convincing manner, averaging about a constant 30 psi over about 45 seconds. Think about a deflating baloon, only smelly.
I can only guess at the reaction on his face, but I excused myself and pressed on with my preflight.
Alright, it was only a squeaker but it was symbolic.
Publishers
Well-known member
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- Sep 20, 2002
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Widow's Son
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2005
- Posts
- 149
>>I farted on a scab<<
As gratifying as that may have been, for you and the lucky recipient to both arrive at the location where the flatulation occured didn't you both cross the same AMFA picket line?
Another thought.
I don't know how much you value your career with NWA, perhaps a lot, perhaps little. Nevertheless, your career pretty much rests in the hands of the fartee and his cohorts.
If they successfully keep NWA running, the company will be able to outsource the cleaning, janitorial, and heavy maint jobs just like the lean mean profitable carriers do and perhaps NWA can weather this storm and when things turn around like they always do, and some capacity is removed, and oil stabilizes, and things get humming again the employee groups who made huge sacrifices can seek some restoration from the leverage of better times and you can have the career you always planned on.
Or the fartee and his cohorts can fail to keep the airline running and NWA will fall into bankruptcy and chaos and as the legacy carrier who would then be the most operationally dsyfunctional would by default serve the rest of the industry by cratering and closing the doors thereby helping everyone else by removing excess capacity and when the industry turns around in brighter times you and your new workmates can flip a coin to see who gets to approach the new Looky Lou who just drove onto the lot looking at the shiney new cars your new boss has in inventory.
The reason ALPA chose to fly was to save the airline because they knew if they didn't the airline and their careers would be toast.
Now the pilots are relegated to the dugout as the replacement workers take to the mound as the relief pitchers. If they win, you win, if they fail, you fail.
As gratifying as that may have been, for you and the lucky recipient to both arrive at the location where the flatulation occured didn't you both cross the same AMFA picket line?
Another thought.
I don't know how much you value your career with NWA, perhaps a lot, perhaps little. Nevertheless, your career pretty much rests in the hands of the fartee and his cohorts.
If they successfully keep NWA running, the company will be able to outsource the cleaning, janitorial, and heavy maint jobs just like the lean mean profitable carriers do and perhaps NWA can weather this storm and when things turn around like they always do, and some capacity is removed, and oil stabilizes, and things get humming again the employee groups who made huge sacrifices can seek some restoration from the leverage of better times and you can have the career you always planned on.
Or the fartee and his cohorts can fail to keep the airline running and NWA will fall into bankruptcy and chaos and as the legacy carrier who would then be the most operationally dsyfunctional would by default serve the rest of the industry by cratering and closing the doors thereby helping everyone else by removing excess capacity and when the industry turns around in brighter times you and your new workmates can flip a coin to see who gets to approach the new Looky Lou who just drove onto the lot looking at the shiney new cars your new boss has in inventory.
The reason ALPA chose to fly was to save the airline because they knew if they didn't the airline and their careers would be toast.
Now the pilots are relegated to the dugout as the replacement workers take to the mound as the relief pitchers. If they win, you win, if they fail, you fail.
Widow's Son,
You seem to have given this a lot of thought. Where do you think the flight attendants fit/play in this? Management has replacements for them as well, but not nearly the ratio, 1200 replacements for about 8,500 I believe. Doesn't seem to be enough if they walk. I am wondering if there will be more hard-line PFAA'ers than replacements.
Deli, funny story, sad situation. What is your perception of the PFAA wild card?
You seem to have given this a lot of thought. Where do you think the flight attendants fit/play in this? Management has replacements for them as well, but not nearly the ratio, 1200 replacements for about 8,500 I believe. Doesn't seem to be enough if they walk. I am wondering if there will be more hard-line PFAA'ers than replacements.
Deli, funny story, sad situation. What is your perception of the PFAA wild card?
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Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
An admitted scab said this on another board:
"At first the flight crews were really cold and somewhat on edge. The Pilots are coming around though and are adjusting well to the changes. The flight attendants are still pretty cold. Some are beginning to see that this is the way it is going to be from now on and are beginning to accept it. I think most are just cold in general I don't know that for sure though. Time will tell"
Perhaps a lot more farting is required
"At first the flight crews were really cold and somewhat on edge. The Pilots are coming around though and are adjusting well to the changes. The flight attendants are still pretty cold. Some are beginning to see that this is the way it is going to be from now on and are beginning to accept it. I think most are just cold in general I don't know that for sure though. Time will tell"
Perhaps a lot more farting is required
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
PICS of "replacement workers"
http://www.amfa5.org/scabs%20pic%20page.htm
I mean was this the "hire the handi-cap" program or what?
Deli Guy said:
http://www.amfa5.org/scabs%20pic%20page.htm
I mean was this the "hire the handi-cap" program or what?
Last edited:
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