NPA Hat Survey

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Actually, ALL of us were TOLD, very specifically, by several HR personnel and just about everyone in the training department that upgrades for us would be about two years.

In their words (heard repeatedly): "You're going to come back in for one recurrent, then, the next time your'e here, it will be for upgrade".

No, it's not a promise, and I don't think the man said anything about having bet the bank on it (he actually very specifically said he was well aware of the vagueries of upgrade timing), so have a cup of decaf, man...

So he's been at five airlines, but isn't smart enough to know that things change EVERY day? Of the three things we are discussing, the ONLY thing that was a SURE thing is that the company expects you to wear your hat. End of story. Don't like the hat, petition to change the policy. Don't like the FO pay, help out our union. Upgrade? Buy the company an airplane on the condition that you get to fly in the left seat, otherwise, wait until seniority holds it. That's what we all have to do.

Making a "statement" about FO wages and not upgrading soon enough by not wearing the hat is just plain immature and stupid. It serves no purpose whatsoever. It just makes him look like an ass as he carries it around the terminal.

Jeez, we're actually going to go 7 pages about the stupid hat.

Yes, I wore mine. Yes, it was because it was company policy, even when I got off probation. I agreed to follow the rules, so I did. Period. I don't especially like it. I cut my hair pretty short and it still gets sweaty and messed up with the hat on.

It *DOES* make the whole uniform a lot snazzier... but only if you're wearing the blazer and not the dog sh*t brown leather jacket. What a stupid color...

Oh yeah,

GO FILL OUT THE WEB SURVEY FOR YOUR NEGOTIATING TEAM!!!

Agreed.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

GO FILL OUT THE WEB SURVEY FOR YOUR NEGOTIATING TEAM!!!

I second that!!!!!:beer:

 

[pipe]

Incidentally, the following make up part of our senority list:
- at least 6 pilots I know of who have flown the Vice President of the United States
- a Thunderbird Pilot
- countless military pilots who have thousands of hours of combat time

OOOOOOOHH. AHHHHHHHH.

That's amazing! (hint of sarcasm) It's also the makeup of every freaking airline in the US. If I need to do an outside loop on the way to Cleveland I hope I get the Thunderbird pilot.

As far as Vice Presidential pilots, ask them why the chumps in DC want military pilots who must retire by 55 years old when it's their fat a$$es in the back of the plane. Because it's safer - that's why.

Anyway, get over it. It's just another average pilot group. Nobody's is better or worse. You've got your Thunderbirds, your child molesters, and your Thunderbird child molesters at every airline.

PIPE

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We don't call them stewardeses anymore. Maybe in your Grandma's day thats what they were called. I'm glad you feel like a real pilot with your hat on dude. All the more power to you. I can look the part and be the utmost professional without it.

Who is we? When talking with the public they constantly calls FAs stewardesses and ask me what "routes" I fly.

You might be able to be professional, but the public has an expectation and a belief.......and its not the same as yours.....


same ol hat thread.....


all the non hatters claim they are professionals..... but none can define what it means to be a professional. They can't quantify it....

In addition, all those against the hat always argue the hat from their personal comfort. They never have a professional against it....probably because they can't quantify what air line pilot professionalism is....


On the May 2007 SWA timetable cover was a picture of two SWA pilots.....wearing hats....

 

[Bodeenf-15]

Actually, ALL of us were TOLD, very specifically, by several HR personnel and just about everyone in the training department that upgrades for us would be about two years.

In their words (heard repeatedly): "You're going to come back in for one recurrent, then, the next time your'e here, it will be for upgrade".

No, it's not a promise, and I don't think the man said anything about having bet the bank on it (he actually very specifically said he was well aware of the vagueries of upgrade timing), so have a cup of decaf, man...

Jeez, we're actually going to go 7 pages about the stupid hat.

Yes, I wore mine. Yes, it was because it was company policy, even when I got off probation. I agreed to follow the rules, so I did. Period. I don't especially like it. I cut my hair pretty short and it still gets sweaty and messed up with the hat on.

It *DOES* make the whole uniform a lot snazzier... but only if you're wearing the blazer and not the dog sh*t brown leather jacket. What a stupid color...

Oh yeah,

GO FILL OUT THE WEB SURVEY FOR YOUR NEGOTIATING TEAM!!!

It *DOES* make the whole uniform a lot snazzier... but only if you're wearing the blazer and not the dog sh*t brown leather jacket. What a stupid color...

 

[Bodeenf-15]

Hey Lucky, change your name to "Shaved Dogs Ass"

Hey Lear70, those sh>t brown leather jackets heve;

-been with Chenault in China
-been over the "hump" in Burma
-been on daily 1000 plane missions over Germany
-been over the beaches at Normandy
-been over Patton's 3rd Army
-been over Bastogne
-been on the Berlin airlift
-been in Glamorous Glennis
-been north of the Yalu river
-been north of the Tigress river
-BEEN APART OF AIR TRAN

and it beats the sh>t out of looking like some south Jersey wise guy or some half assed Greek shrimp boat captain. Wear the stripes if you like just make sure it is tailored and fit.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Well, we now know one thing. Hat or not, you could never be considered a professional of any kind. Ass.

One other thing. Your screen name says it all. You would certainly never get past an interview board if you had to.

You guys are wimps...how bout getting a ********************ing contract instead of taking opinion polls on hats...stupid. If you don't like your hat...don't wear it...unless coach is around, ah screw it take it off anyway for that scab

 

[Lear70]

Hey Lucky, change your name to "Shaved Dogs Ass"

Hey Lear70, those sh>t brown leather jackets heve;

-been with Chenault in China
-been over the "hump" in Burma
-been on daily 1000 plane missions over Germany
-been over the beaches at Normandy
-been over Patton's 3rd Army
-been over Bastogne
-been on the Berlin airlift
-been in Glamorous Glennis
-been north of the Yalu river
-been north of the Tigress river
-BEEN APART OF AIR TRAN

and it beats the sh>t out of looking like some south Jersey wise guy or some half assed Greek shrimp boat captain. Wear the stripes if you like just make sure it is tailored and fit.

Wow... someone must need a pep talk for their military withdrawal syndrome...

I'm grateful for the service of our men and women who have served, especially on overseas tours, but here's a news flash:

It has ABSOLUTELY ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with the airline world. Two completely different animals.

The FACT is that the blazer with a hat simply looks more professional for an airline pilot. Period. Always has... always will.

Not to mention that the blazer with a FULL-LENGTH trench coat is a hell of a lot warmer than the bomber jacket anyway when you actually have to go somewhere cold with dress slacks on (nice to have something covering down to my shins).

I don't care if the leather jacket stays or not. I really couldn't give a rat's; I don't have to wear it if I don't want and it's funny when people approach the F/O wearing the blazer instead of the leather jacket wearing Captain and assume the F/O is in command because he's dressed accordingly (seen it happen twice - it gets funnier every time).

However, I AM concerned over Scope, Compensation, Retirement, and Insurance. But flip out over the jacket if it's that important to you... to each his own.

 

[clippyrip]

What was this thread about anyway?

 

[Britpilot]

It has ABSOLUTELY ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with the airline world. Two completely different animals.

Strange, I have an old photo from the thirties of two airline pilots in the cockpit wearing.........leather jackets.(and hats!!)
The brown leather jacket is synonymous with flying, it is a tradition. Love it or loathe it, your choice.
I don't think Dodeenf has "military withdrawal", (a little condescending on your part) he was just answering your original question regarding the "dog sh!t brown" color.
I happen to like mine for it's practicality and I receive many compliments on it from passengers. I also happen to think our navy blue blazer with sparkly gold stripes looks theatrical, but that's just me.
Have a nice day.

 

[Lear70]

Strange, I have an old photo from the thirties of two airline pilots in the cockpit wearing.........leather jackets.(and hats!!)
The brown leather jacket is synonymous with flying, it is a tradition. Love it or loathe it, your choice.
I don't think Dodeenf has "military withdrawal", (a little condescending on your part) he was just answering your original question regarding the "dog sh!t brown" color.
I happen to like mine for it's practicality and I receive many compliments on it from passengers. I also happen to think our navy blue blazer with sparkly gold stripes looks theatrical, but that's just me.
Have a nice day.

It may have been condescending on my part; his post was just as condescending, lecturing me on just how many military scenarios the leather jacket has been in (hint, didn't need the lecture).

I happen to have a very nice LAMBSKIN (very soft) black A-2 from my Express One days (which I bought as part of the uniform, wore once, then put in the closet for leisure wear - I liked the longer trench coat in the winter on the freight ramp in the freezing cold snow and slush). I agree, it's a classic look, great to wear... away from work, flying in a Cub or a Citabria or just around town. I'm well aware of the history behind the A-2 and its predecessors.

You may get compliments on yours. Don't know what pilots from the 30's have anything to do with it (leather jackets and hats were military cockpit garb, too and, in the 30's, the airlines had just BARELY began to form into what we have today).

I can't seem to find any pictures from the 50's and 60's from Major carriers wearing leather jackets - the same time when contracts that shaped the industry and made pilots VERY well-compensated professionals were signed.

Again, my point was that the guy went off about how many theaters the leather jacket has been in WHEN WE SHOULD BE WORRIED MORE ABOUT OUR CONTRACT.

PCL is right; it's absolutely deplorable how many people will get upset about derogatory comments regarding the jacket or its removal from our approved uniform and how few people will step up and complain about our substandard F/O pay, high insurance premiums, and the crap that was T.A. 1 and 2.

Like I said, wear the jacket, I don't care (same for the hat). But can we keep our eye on the ball?

Hope you have a good day, too. :beer:

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We didn't get here......

I can't seem to find any pictures from the 50's and 60's from Major carriers wearing leather jackets - the same time when contracts that shaped the industry and made pilots VERY well-compensated professionals were signed.

without first being here....

You may get compliments on yours. Don't know what pilots from the 30's have anything to do with it (leather jackets and hats were military cockpit garb, too and, in the 30's, the airlines had just BARELY began to form into what we have today).

Hey Lear70, those sh>t brown leather jackets heve;

-been with Chenault in China
-been over the "hump" in Burma
-been on daily 1000 plane missions over Germany
-been over the beaches at Normandy
-been over Patton's 3rd Army
-been over Bastogne
-been on the Berlin airlift
-been in Glamorous Glennis
-been north of the Yalu river
-been north of the Tigress river
-BEEN APART OF AIR TRAN

Keep in mind MIL folks... if it weren't for the civilian pilots during WWII we might have failed miserably....

Read : When the Airlines went to War.

Back in the 10's and 20's MIL aviation was born out of CIV aviation.

The CIV guys were wearing anything they could to keep warm in open cockpit planes. Some of the first pax service was a man or lady riding on a mailbag in a closed compartment while the pilot sat in an open cockpit....

The quasi-MIL uniforms were worn to instill confidence in the traveling public in part to the new-ness of commercial flying and the high accident rate. IOW, the uniform including the hat was worn to stifle fear.

Hats were not worn to make pilots better or more professional. Hats were worn to help keep ticket sales up.... It was all about appearances. If you went to see a movie with your fav actor and they were wearing jeans and a T-shirt... thier part would not be as believable... and you'd might feel jip'ed out of your money. You might even feel diss'ed as your fav actor tries to get you to believe they are playing a part set 200 years ago... in jeans and a tshirt that says "I banged Angeline!"...


Now, consider the pax perspective when they show up.... Do the pax want the Deltoid with hat or Bomber Bob?

I believe the image still means something. I am not willing to risk it..... and neither are most....

that is why.....

did you forgo the tie in your interview? Why not? You don't need a tie... or a suit for that matter to prove you can do the job...... do you?

 

[Britpilot]

Don't know what pilots from the 30's have anything to do with it (leather jackets and hats were military cockpit garb, too and, in the 30's, the airlines had just BARELY began to form into what we have today).

Well those pilots from the thirties and forties might have something to say about who formed the airlines we see today. Uniforms are essentially Military garb in one form or another.
I too hope to see a new contract this year and I will be as focused as I usually am on this subject.
Bye.

 

[Britpilot]

Now, consider the pax perspective when they show up.... Do the pax want the Deltoid with hat or Bomber Bob?

I don't know, why don't you poll the passengers?

Do the pax want to see Tug Boat Tim in the multi stripped polyester blazer or Aviator Andy in the tailored leather flying jacket?

 

[tubelcane]

All the folks care about is theyre going to wally world for less than $100! Mickey and Goofy could be in the cockpit and half of them wouldn't care.

 

[Lear70]

All the folks care about is theyre going to wally world for less than $100! Mickey and Goofy could be in the cockpit and half of them wouldn't care.

TRUE!

I take professional pride in how I present myself to the public, even if half of them don't care.

It's a personal value set... Not to say the pro-bomber or anti-hat club doesn't have personal values. I've seen sharp-dressed pilots in both, as well as slobs in both.

I personally prefer the "traditional professional pilot" presentation, that's all.

Now, has EVERYONE gone and done their surveys by now?

 

[curtis46]

All the folks care about is theyre going to wally world for less than $100! Mickey and Goofy could be in the cockpit and half of them wouldn't care.

Not true;people do look at pilot appearance, even if that's not the determining factor the moment they're purchasing their tickets.the same way we comment about pax dressing code nowadays,pax also comment on our appearance.
A pilot may be a true professional,but with a sloppy look nobody would ever know.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't know, why don't you poll the passengers?

Do the pax want to see Tug Boat Tim in the multi stripped polyester blazer or Aviator Andy in the tailored leather flying jacket?

It would be beneficial if pilots knew their market.

All the folks care about is theyre going to wally world for less than $100! Mickey and Goofy could be in the cockpit and half of them wouldn't care.

wrong!

A common misconception and ideal pilots like use to justify in their mind their perceived status of the profession by the public.

IOW if we were in the golden age and kids and 20 something girls were impressed by pilots in FULL uniform, you'd bet your hat they'd dress the part...

So...what does that say? Who is determining the profession?

Not true;people do look at pilot appearance, even if that's not the determining factor the moment they're purchasing their tickets.the same way we comment about pax dressing code nowadays,pax also comment on our appearance.
A pilot may be a true professional,but with a sloppy look nobody would ever know.

Excellent points! We complain about how the pax dress but then turn the cheek and say they don't care about how we look....

 

[tubelcane]

Flying is the new Greyhound. People used to wear suits and dresses. Now they wear sweatpants and flip-flops. Maybe Mickey and Goofy weren't good examples. The folks see two dorks wearing their pilot uniforms and other than that couldn't care less. When's the last time somebody stopped you and said "damn you look so darn professional in that uniform." Half the time they don't know if we're pilots, skycaps, flight attendants, or friggin busdrivers.

 

[curtis46]

Just a month ago i was compliment for my appearance by an old couple.they put a smile on my face and i put one on theirs.
Why pilots don't take proud of their personal appearance is beyond me.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Flying is the new Greyhound. People used to wear suits and dresses. Now they wear sweatpants and flip-flops. Maybe Mickey and Goofy weren't good examples. The folks see two dorks wearing their pilot uniforms and other than that couldn't care less. When's the last time somebody stopped you and said "damn you look so darn professional in that uniform." Half the time they don't know if we're pilots, skycaps, flight attendants, or friggin busdrivers.

It appears you might have issues.

This industry has evoloved just like others. In order to expand and grow, ticket prices had to come down, so more people, who normaly would not... will. many of those people probably don't own a suit.

But does that mean you alter your dress code? Do the pax have to dress well so you'll dress well?

The uniform is one part of the image. Behavior, attitude, demeanor, character, and service is part of it as well.

Just a month ago i was compliment for my appearance by an old couple.they put a smile on my face and i put one on theirs.
Why pilots don't take proud of their personal appearance is beyond me.

Quite often I have come right out and told the pax what the deal was... why we were delayed. I don't sugar coat it, yet still tactful and reassuring.

I've gotten more compliments from this M.O. This one time (at band camp ) a significant wx delay.. we came into the terminal and talked face to face with the pax. An old man who said he'd been flying for years stated he never had a pilot do that...

Of course... if you are going to talk face to face with the pax in a upfront, truthful manner.... its best to have your uniform looking..... fairly well.

 

[tubelcane]

Dude, I wear what I'm required to wear.

My point was the passengers don't really care as long as they get a cheap ticket. Passengers have complimented me on the smooth ride, great landing, etc. Not once in 17 years have they complimetnted me or anyone in the crew I was with on how we were dressed.

You probably wear your hat on the throne.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dude, I wear what I'm required to wear.

That is the point. So you do only what you are required to do? That is indicative of a skilled worker. Not a professional nor a leader.

My point was the passengers don't really care as long as they get a cheap ticket.

Quote the post. This has already been covered and disputed. How do you know this....?? This is merely justiftication on your own mind... which is

"the pax really don't care...... so why should I"...

Passengers have complimented me on the smooth ride, great landing, etc.

That is expected. Big deal... we all do that....

Not once in 17 years have they complimetnted me or anyone in the crew I was with on how we were dressed.

Maybe that is a hint...

You probably wear your hat on the throne.

If it helps you feel better about yourself.... ok...sure...



The concern is individual apathy effects us all....

 

[tubelcane]

It's a clue that our uniforms all look the same, sure I guess so. What else should I do besides wear what Im required to? Dude get over it, the days of people fawning over an airline pilot walking down the terminal are over!

 

[clippyrip]

The hat is outdated and campy. It looks like a movie prop and takes away from professionalism. IMHO.

It seems like the guys who wear it with pride are the same guys who wear their unifom into the grocery store. They probably have personalized license plates with some sort of aviation reference, a wooden prop hanging on the wall at home and the metal alloy version of their AC on the desk.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's a clue that our uniforms all look the same, sure I guess so. What else should I do besides wear what Im required to? Dude get over it, the days of people fawning over an airline pilot walking down the terminal are over!

**sigh**

it is the way many wear it.... sloppy and apathetically... you probably don't.

It is not about having pax fawn over you in the terminal. It is about wearing the uniform well as a standard. Is that so difficult? To do what is expected of you? To do what you agreed to...

The hat is outdated and campy. It looks like a movie prop and takes away from professionalism. IMHO.

Can you explain your humble opinion? How does the hat take away from professionalism? And while you are at it... what is air line pilot professionalism?

It seems like the guys who wear it with pride are the same guys who wear their unifom into the grocery store. They probably have personalized license plates with some sort of aviation reference, a wooden prop hanging on the wall at home and the metal alloy version of their AC on the desk.

What does that mean?

I think the guys that wear the hat are either bald and/or proud of the profession and want to be recognized as a professional Air Line Pilot. I didn't bust tail to viewed as a stewardess. (yes, the pax still call 'em stewardesses). Do you like being viewed as a light loafer?

Simply put guys don't wear the hat cause they are embarassed. Embarrassed that the profession hasn't provided them the status and pay they expected. Which shows they became air line pilots for what the profession can do for them....

I did a rough survey... about 80% of the guys at my regional that got hired by a major/legacy in the recent 2007-08 wave .....wore hats.....

Keep in mind.... when they interviewed the HR rep and interviewing pilots didn't know they wore hats..


It is the mindset and atittude....

 

[Lear70]

The hat is outdated and campy. It looks like a movie prop and takes away from professionalism. IMHO.

It seems like the guys who wear it with pride are the same guys who wear their unifom into the grocery store. They probably have personalized license plates with some sort of aviation reference, a wooden prop hanging on the wall at home and the metal alloy version of their AC on the desk.

Opinions vary... I still get the occasional mom pointing the pilot out to their small child... but only when I have the hat on.

Call it what you want. In my experience, the people who complain the loudest about the hat fall into two categories: those who can't be bothered to volunteer for union positions to help their fellow pilots (and themselves) in any way possible and just want to do their "job" and go home, and those who simply look like crap in their uniform (don't iron their shirts, bring one shirt for an entire 5 day rotation, have food stains on their tie from 4 trips back at Moe's, etc).

There are always exceptions to the rule, but by and far, that seems to be the standard.

Incidentally, I don't wear my uniform to the store (although if I have to stop on my way home after a trip, I take off anything identifying and leave the hat in the car), but I do happen to have a very nice bronze small 727 on my desk that was a gift when I upgraded on it back in 2000 and I'd actually love to have a house with a big office, bookshelves, and room for an old wooden prop on the wall.

I'm still proud that I'm a 3rd generation pilot. There's a lot of history everyone else trashes, which is probably why we lack the solidarity to improve our lot in life.

Read the NPA's quote of the week in the blast email you got today. That's EXACTLY how I feel, and how I live my life.

 

[Eagle757shark]

Gentlemen are you kidding me! This hat survey is so damn trivial! We wonder why our profession has gone down the tubes? Management has to be laughing at us again! There are so many issues with our current contract! I would rather be focusing my energy and getting information on how we can fix those problems. NOTE: we don't need a TA to fix the SAP2 Flica mess, we don't need a TA to fix the crappy hotels we stay in and how they are selected, we don't need a TA to fix the side letters of agreements that have been negotiated that we as a whole pilot group never receive so we know there is a change, and we don't need a TA to fix scheduling violations of our current CBA. My point, these are issues that we need to be focusing on now until a new TA is reached. I want to fix these issues now and I want management to know these are my concerns and this is what affects me daily when I come to work. Given the choice of fixing some of these issues with management or wearing or not wearing some damn hat, I would settle for fixing the above. What are our priorities here?

Folks consolidation is about to happen. It looks like Delta and Northwest have resolved a lot of their initial issues and will be making an announcement sometime this upcoming week around the time of their board meeting. Continental and United will be next and given the recent comments of Gary Kelley, Southwest may be jumping in the game soon after. (personally, I believe if Southwest jumps in the game, their target will be AirTran) Point: NPA and pilots of AirTran, we need to focus the next couple of months on getting our house in order! We will need to be united given the next couple of months and I don't think wearing or not wearing a hat is all that important. Lets address the real issues that face are pilot group.

 

[ironspud]

If that old Captain with the beer belly and the grey Hulk Hogan mustache I see around Concourse C can wear a hat, everybody can.

 

[mnboyev]

Yeah ! root a toot toot !