Not Mad at Comair

[I.P. Freley]

As I read all the bashing by pilots at other airlines, and by some of the “no” voters at Comair, I can’t help but wonder as to the rational for a lot of it.

I’m quite positive all took their own vote as a serious matter, and made their decision after much study, evaluation and deliberation with others in their group.

Then all the others yell and holler as if the pilots at Comair come from a different species of being than other humans are made of. Do you believe that their DNA is somehow different than yours as a collective group?

Tell me how and when all you other pilots of such a highly advanced intellect will chose to fall on your sword for another entity at the expense of yourselves.

Jarhead...

You're no newcomer to flightinfo, so I wonder if maybe this post is in jest... have you READ the things posted by some (note I said SOME) of the Comair pilots on here in the last few years? A very vocal group have called practically everyone else's contracts, negotiations or concessions the work of "whores", accused everyone of "lowering the bar they set", etc., etc., etc... Just like a very angry contingent of ExpressJet pilots did, and then accepted a contract that wasn't "Comair-plus" like they adamantly claimed they'd get. Everyone else's reasons for working for less are unacceptable ("9/11? Recession? Oil? Bankruptcy? War? Alter-ego? Scope? ALL BULL$%&#!!!"), but their OWN reasons are perfectly rational. They expected everyone else to "fall on the sword for another entity", as you said, and then backed down themselves.

It seems obvious to me that this is the "rationale" you are looking for. It is quite clear that there are those down in Cinci that think their DNA really IS different, or at least what they've posted here indicates that they do. To the people who've been the target of angry Comair pilots, this is just too much to let pass without comment.

Before anyone decides to do a "pile-on" directed at me, I have not been involved in any of the venomous anti-Comair threads, at least not as a venom-spitter, but I certainly understand why they exist. I am not at all surprised to see CHQ and Mesa guys, for instance, smugly attacking those Comair posters for not living up to their own hype.

 

[737 Pylt]

What bigger airplanes are we getting??

I guess I meant newer/bigger airplanes. Doesn't the emb170 have a bigger mgtow? You are a bunch of sellouts!

True colors.. You show yours every time you open your mouth. How did you ever pass a psyc eval?

This from the biggest tool in the shed. Shouldn't you be on the radio crying about a UAL pilot! Jelousy will get you nowhere!

Sounds like you're the one who needs to worry about the next round of concessions. You're about to come down to our pay level and benefit status.

I am worried about concessions sellout! However, you didn't see us thumping our chests telling mgmt. to pound sand, telling the world, no way were we going to cave! You really showed em chapped pylot! You go girl!

Start worrying about your own hide and stop worrying about us.

Trust me, you are the last thing I am worried about, I'm just looking forward to the "garage sale" to spin off you guys!
737

 

[737 Pylt]

Ygtbsm

737,

You folks over at Delta actually created this mess. If, back when you first allowed outsourcing of your jobs in the 80's, you had only allowed management ONE connection carrier, then they would not be able to threaten us with these things. But you did not think things through, so maybe you can stfu while we try to deal with the mess you made.

Oh brother, here we go again! Surplus, did you change your screen name!
I guess the same could be said about you and your PFT. Made it difficult to get a job and make some money without having to pay for a job, when you all were so anxious!
What are you guys gonna do when you are sold off. Who will you be able to blame your problems on then??
737

 

[chperplt]

737

Was that the best you can do? Calling me a sellout a few times and throwing in a girlypilot.

You can dish it out but have a real hard time taking it.. I guess that would make you a top.

You're a sad little man.

 

[C425Driver]

After reading this nauseating thread I am reminded of why I decided to get out of the airline business and I feel so much better about my decision - thank you to all who have participated. It is truly a disappointment to work so hard to achieve a goal only to get there and find out what a joke this industry really is. My plan is in motion and I hope to be gone by the end of the year. I will miss the travel benefits and some of the people I work with, but I will never miss the whipsawing, anti-labor management philosophy, the TSA, the RJDC, ALPA and all of the inherent in-fighting that it breeds, the negotiations, the grievances, the concessions, waiting for hotel vans, bad food, bad flight attendants (ok, I will miss some of the bad FA's), and the list goes on.....

I truly hope this industry makes a turn for the best, but I'm not holding my breath and I'm sure as he!! not sticking around in the unlikely event that it does happen.


C425Driver

P.S. Thanks to Typhoon and the other ASA pilots for your sentiments (that was what this thread was originally about). As one of the 39.6%, I appreciate it.

 

[av8tor4239]

C425 Driver... what are you getting into if you are not going to fly 121?.. Just curious

 

[C425Driver]

av8tor4239,

I've got a couple of entrepeneurial (sp?) ventures that I've been involved with on the side and they've been paying off. Believe it or not, one of them is aviation related (you CAN make money in aviation!). Seems like a good time to make them my full-time job. I'm looking forward to putting my career in my own hands rather than have it at the mercy of a union contract that my boss is going to violate any way he can.

I'll never quit flying, but I'd rather have it as a hobby than a career.

C425Driver

 

[av8tor4239]

I hear ya... Good luck man

 

[Typhoon1244]

If you would visit ASA ALPA website you would find this too.

I do...but I missed this.

Thanks!

 

[737 Pylt]

737

Was that the best you can do? Calling me a sellout a few times and throwing in a girlypilot.

You can dish it out but have a real hard time taking it.. I guess that would make you a top.

You're a sad little man.

OK then how about this. Your screen name says it all. CHEAPER pilot. You're just showing your willingness to work for less. But hey, you're a really cool guy who yells at other pilots on the radio! That makes you a really big man!
You win!
737

 

[chperplt]

OK then how about this. Your screen name says it all. CHEAPER pilot. You're just showing your willingness to work for less. But hey, you're a really cool guy who yells at other pilots on the radio! That makes you a really big man!
You win!
737

CHEAPER pilot... I can't stop laughing... at you that is.

Not that it matters, but I did NOT vote yes for the LOA.

Who did I yell at on the radio?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Deleted...not worth arguing.

 

[Typhoon1244]

The clear majority in a democratic vote, decided by a 60 – 40 majority to accept and agree to the terms of the LOA. I’m quite positive all took their own vote as a serious matter, and made their decision after much study, evaluation and deliberation with others in their group.

...the Comair pilots made their individual evaluation of what was in their individual and in their collective best interests and then made a choice.

Let's assume, for a moment, that it was a titanic mistake for Comair's pilots to approve the LOA. What does it mean. that so many pilots would jump off that cliff?

Does it mean that "regional" pilots are losing faith in ALPA's ability to protect them in todays industry? I've been thinking for some time now that ALPA may be in deep trouble. Maybe this is just the beginning.

And after watching what's happened to the Eastern strikers and the Continental scabs, I'm not so sure ALPA is worth saving anyway.

(NOTE: I'm not a member of the RJDC, nor do I send them money. I developed my disallusionment with ALPA all by myself.)

 

[cl65capt]

Who did I yell at on the radio?

I think he was refering to you yelling at a UAL pilot in BTV.

 

[chperplt]

I think he was refering to you yelling at a UAL pilot in BTV

If that's what he's (she) is talking about, I didn't yell. I simply said shut up to a whining baby.. Much the same as I've done to him(her).

 

[737 Pylt]

If that's what he's (she) is talking about, I didn't yell. I simply said shut up to a whining baby.. Much the same as I've done to him(her).

Yawn!
You are as boring as your are stupid! You're going to have to do better than the she jokes!
737
I wonder, seems nobody is man (woman) enough to say they voted FOR the concession package, yet 60% of you actually did! Maybe time for some more chest thumping!

 

[chperplt]

wonder, seems nobody is man (woman) enough to say they voted FOR the concession package, yet 60% of you actually did! Maybe time for some more chest thumping!

Have you walked up to people and asked them, or are you using the 3% of Comair pilots on this board as your case study?

I've talked with a number of people who admit they voted for it. On this board and in the crew room.

Oh.. I wasn't making a joke. I didn't want to be rude if you were a she. I didn't know for sure if you were a he or a she so I thought I would cover all my bases.

I really don't understand why you're so mad about the LOA. I understand the ASA guys being upset, but why are you? Are you afraid that with the LOA and the EMB-170 we're going to be doing more of "your" point to point stuff? What's your gripe about??

Go out and play some golf and relax a bit. It's in the mid 70s out west today.. Enjoy the last week of winter!

 

[RJFlyer]

Enjoy the last week of winter!

Thanks for reminding me - WOOHOO!!!

 

[chperplt]

Thanks for reminding me - WOOHOO!!!

My pleasure!!! It's been in the 80s for the last week out west. Got to love it!!

 

[737 Pylt]

I really don't understand why you're so mad about the LOA. I understand the ASA guys being upset, but why are you? Are you afraid that with the LOA and the EMB-170 we're going to be doing more of "your" point to point stuff? What's your gripe about??

I don't have a dog in this fight, nor a gripe. My point was that it was shown that CMR pilots were willing to give concessions for new/bigger planes. That's it.

Go out and play some golf and relax a bit. It's in the mid 70s out west today.. Enjoy the last week of winter!

Advice taken. Batted an 83 today!
737

 

[InclusiveScope]

Let's assume, for a moment, that it was a titanic mistake for Comair's pilots to approve the LOA. What does it mean. that so many pilots would jump off that cliff?

Does it mean that "regional" pilots are losing faith in ALPA's ability to protect them in todays industry? I've been thinking for some time now that ALPA may be in deep trouble. Maybe this is just the beginning.

And after watching what's happened to the Eastern strikers and the Continental scabs, I'm not so sure ALPA is worth saving anyway.

(NOTE: I'm not a member of the RJDC, nor do I send them money. I developed my disallusionment with ALPA all by myself.)

Well said Typhoon!

The CMR pilots have done the noble thing up until this time. This time, the majority said enough and did what is best for them. Let's look at history shall we:

1. The CMR pilots fought the good fight for 89 days. How were they rewarded? There passengers were flown by fellow ALPA pilots at DAL, ASA, and ACA. Their aircraft were shifted to SKYW and ASA. We here at ASA flew their passengers in their aircraft during the strike. This was strike 1.

2. CMR pilots lost the MCO hub to CHQ after the strike. CHQ was cheaper. This was strike 2.

3. CMR did not receive ANY aircraft from RFP 1 after they refused to give in to demands to reduce pay. This was strike 3.

61% decided that was enough, and I don't blame them. ALPA has failed miserably to protect those who "defend the profession". Let's look at just some of these failures.

- ALG/PDT/CCAir had some of the best contracts in the regional industry. 2 of these carriers are gone now, and the third is barely hanging on. Meanwhile, USAirways Express growth has gone to Mesa/CHQ/TSA which are the lower cost USAirways Express carriers.

- Air Wisconsin and ACA had the best contracts of the United Express carriers. ACA had to go it alone and Air Wisconsin is being squeezed for concessions. Meanwhile, Mesa and SKYW have been growing at United.

- At Northwest, the Mesaba contract is far superior to the Pinnacle contract and it is Pinnacle that has received all the growth.

It doesn't pay to "hold the line". There is no reward for doing the "right thing".

ALPA - your chickens are coming home to roost!

 

[kc81900]

Scared for your future??
Were you presented with the fact you were about to lose everything in a BK proceeding? Were you told take it or else you're all out of work?? You guys showed your true color. Work cheaper for bigger planes. Wait til the next round of concessions!
737

Actually, we were given the same outlook mainline was given. Take a pay freeze to bring our contract inline with the rest of the industry. Isn't that the same you agreed to with your 32% paycut. A real threat of removing existing 70 seat airframes from property was made bringing our pilot force down to pre strike levels. We know have in our LOA protection for all pilots since our strike. In the form of minimum aircraft in revenue service 199 by 12/31/2007. Our true colors have been to obtain some benefit to our pilots for our pay freeze. What did you get for your 32%pay cut????? You say wait for our next round of concessions! What will yours be another 10% or 32%.

 

[chperplt]

Advice taken. Batted an 83 today!

Was that at a miniature golf course?

 

[737 Pylt]

Was that at a miniature golf course?

I thought that's what you were talking about!
737

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Well said Typhoon!

The CMR pilots have done the noble thing up until this time. This time, the majority said enough and did what is best for them. Let's look at history shall we:

1. The CMR pilots fought the good fight for 89 days. How were they rewarded? There passengers were flown by fellow ALPA pilots at DAL, ASA, and ACA. Their aircraft were shifted to SKYW and ASA. We here at ASA flew their passengers in their aircraft during the strike. This was strike 1.

2. CMR pilots lost the MCO hub to CHQ after the strike. CHQ was cheaper. This was strike 2.

3. CMR did not receive ANY aircraft from RFP 1 after they refused to give in to demands to reduce pay. This was strike 3.

61% decided that was enough, and I don't blame them. ALPA has failed miserably to protect those who "defend the profession". Let's look at just some of these failures.

- ALG/PDT/CCAir had some of the best contracts in the regional industry. 2 of these carriers are gone now, and the third is barely hanging on. Meanwhile, USAirways Express growth has gone to Mesa/CHQ/TSA which are the lower cost USAirways Express carriers.

- Air Wisconsin and ACA had the best contracts of the United Express carriers. ACA had to go it alone and Air Wisconsin is being squeezed for concessions. Meanwhile, Mesa and SKYW have been growing at United.

- At Northwest, the Mesaba contract is far superior to the Pinnacle contract and it is Pinnacle that has received all the growth.

It doesn't pay to "hold the line". There is no reward for doing the "right thing".

ALPA - your chickens are coming home to roost!

Exactly.

KAK
61%'er
and no, I do not support or endorse the RJDC but do agree that ALPA is coming apart at the seams.

 

[General Lee]

Well said Typhoon!

The CMR pilots have done the noble thing up until this time. This time, the majority said enough and did what is best for them. Let's look at history shall we:

1. The CMR pilots fought the good fight for 89 days. How were they rewarded? There passengers were flown by fellow ALPA pilots at DAL, ASA, and ACA. Their aircraft were shifted to SKYW and ASA. We here at ASA flew their passengers in their aircraft during the strike. This was strike 1.

2. CMR pilots lost the MCO hub to CHQ after the strike. CHQ was cheaper. This was strike 2.

3. CMR did not receive ANY aircraft from RFP 1 after they refused to give in to demands to reduce pay. This was strike 3.

61% decided that was enough, and I don't blame them. ALPA has failed miserably to protect those who "defend the profession". Let's look at just some of these failures.

- ALG/PDT/CCAir had some of the best contracts in the regional industry. 2 of these carriers are gone now, and the third is barely hanging on. Meanwhile, USAirways Express growth has gone to Mesa/CHQ/TSA which are the lower cost USAirways Express carriers.

- Air Wisconsin and ACA had the best contracts of the United Express carriers. ACA had to go it alone and Air Wisconsin is being squeezed for concessions. Meanwhile, Mesa and SKYW have been growing at United.

- At Northwest, the Mesaba contract is far superior to the Pinnacle contract and it is Pinnacle that has received all the growth.

It doesn't pay to "hold the line". There is no reward for doing the "right thing".

ALPA - your chickens are coming home to roost!

Wait a second. Your view of the Comair strike and who flew their passengers is quite slanted. You FORGOT to say that Pres George W. Bush stated that there "would be no Major airline strikes" for that Summer, and that we had already lost a lawsuit at Delta (from GA distrcit court) about stopping our overtime flying. We lost. We also did not fly any routes that Comair flew exclusively, and did not add any new flights to existing cities that shared Comair and Delta flights beforehand. At the same time ALPA (all ALPA carriers) contributed to Comair's strike fund and everyone there got some sort of pay which was entitled to them. Then, after the $1 billion loss to Delta financially and Comair actually getting a good contract (compared to today's standards), they decided not to help one of their biggest supporters from the strike---when we started to furlough---actually furlough a lot of their old employees that were hired at Delta. Then the stories goes that their sister airline, ASA, and another DCI affiliate, CHQ decided to help our furloughs in need, while the Comair pilots remained all but silent, hardly voicing anything other than "We want 70 seaters in return...." Instead of seeing the need to help people who WERE IN NEED, they decided the NEED FOR HELPING THEMSELVES WITH MORE 70 SEATERS WAS MORE IMPORTANT.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Wait a second. Your view of the Comair strike and who flew their passengers is quite slanted. You FORGOT to say that Pres George W. Bush stated that there "would be no Major airline strikes" for that Summer, and that we had already lost a lawsuit at Delta (from GA distrcit court) about stopping our overtime flying. We lost. We also did not fly any routes that Comair flew exclusively, and did not add any new flights to existing cities that shared Comair and Delta flights beforehand. At the same time ALPA (all ALPA carriers) contributed to Comair's strike fund and everyone there got some sort of pay which was entitiled to them. Then, after the $1 billion loss to Delta financially and Comair actually getting a good contract (compared to today's standards), they decided not to help one of their biggest supporters from the strike---when we started to furlough---actually furlough a lot of their old employees that were hired at Delta. Then the stories goes that their sister airline, ASA, and another DCI affiliate, CHQ decide to help our needy furloughs, while the Comair pilots remained all but silent, hardly voicing anything other than "We want 70 seaters in return...." Instead of seeing the need to help people who WERE IN NEED, they decided the NEED FOR HELPING THEMSELVES WITH MORE 70 SEATERS WAS MORE IMPORTANT.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
You missed the whole point AGAIN. This isn't about your fellow furloughed Delta pilots. They were sold down the river by YOUR MEC.

This is about the failure of ALPA to prevent management from using a whipsaw to force multiple ALPA carriers to compete against one another for flying. This is about ALPA's failure to use a strike against an employer. I am an ASA pilot and I don't think we should have been flying CMR passengers in CMR aircraft during their strike. That was the end of any leverage we may have had as a union. ALPA has been neutered and some people just can't accept it.

 

[cl65capt]

Dont go blaming ALPA. This is the fault of each individual pilot group for not negotiating scope for themselves.

 

[General Lee]

General,
You missed the whole point AGAIN. This isn't about your fellow furloughed Delta pilots. They were sold down the river by YOUR MEC.

This is about the failure of ALPA to prevent management from using a whipsaw to force multiple ALPA carriers to compete against one another for flying. This is about ALPA's failure to use a strike against an employer. I am an ASA pilot and I don't think we should have been flying CMR passengers in CMR aircraft during their strike. That was the end of any leverage we may have had as a union. ALPA has been neutered and some people just can't accept it.

This is about the lack of outrage from the Comair pilots against the lack of help their MEC and company was providing, as done at the other sister DCI airlines. If they were not helping also, I could partially understand it, but the others DID help. Your timeline about what happened concerning our flying during the Comair strike was not accurate. You obviously don't recall what was happening externally---with what Bush actually said and our lawsuit loss. Those things actually happened. You neglected to state those things. You also forgot to state that we didn't step over the line and fly Comair planes, or fly new routes or extra flights. We did not. We couldn't cut flights---due to the lawsuit we LOST. We gave money to ALPA (along with everyone else) and hoped for the best. When krap came our way----COMAIR AND THEIR PILOTS DID NOTHING BUT ASK FOR MORE 70 SEATERS. Where am I wrong about that?

As far as ALPA allowing whipsawing----I thought you guys didn't want us meddling in your affairs? Which is it? DO you want us to bargain for you or not bargain for you? Also, why didn't you guys get better scope for yourself? You went for pay. You never got your own scope. And, you were mad that we got scope for ourselves, and in reality you needed it. Hmmmm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cl65capt]

Also, why didn't you guys get better scope for yourself? You went for pay. You never got your own scope. And, you were mad that we got scope for ourselves, and in reality you needed it. Hmmmm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I think you hit the nail on the head there General!