Northwest Airlines Files 1113

[NuGuy]

...but there are very few 40 year old guys at NWA, they are all on the street.

Uh, yea...apparently you aren't quite up on the demographics at NWA as you profess...

Most of my friends at NWA are in the under-40 crowd, and not only are they quite numerous, but also still employed and, despite your best wishes, at least 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

But the NWA pilots have nothing to prove in this regard anyway. Along with Comair, they've already earned their star.



Nu

 

[Lear70]

Also, the Judge must pick either the entire management or union proposal, he/she can't pick certain parts from both proposals. The choice will be the new contract.

I didn't know that; I thought the judge could pick and choose from both proposals to come up with the new contract...

Also, at the end of the 51 days....if an agreement hasn't been reached, the deadline can be extended, with the agreement of management, the union, and the Judge. 320AV8R

THAT is what will keep NWA from extending things. They can't repeatedly file an 1113(c); it's a one-time filing, and the company AND the union must agree to extend the 51 day window. If they BOTH don't agree to do so, the judge steps in.

I wonder about NWA; their demographic is DRASTICALLY different than USAirways, the only other Ch. 11 I followed closely because my dad was working there at the time.

The USA pilot demographic was LARGELY 45-60 year old pilots, the most junior F/O had 20 years, my dad had 23 years and was getting displaced to F/O after being a CA since 1986. He took early retirement because the pension payment with the PBGC was higher and has been looking for work, with little luck, even though he flew Lears previously for almost a decade.

The market is flooded with people current and qualified and looking for better jobs. The only flying to be had is overseas in the Asian, African, or Eastern European markets at pay rates of $7,000 per month plus housing, no medical / dental coverage. It is tax-free, but you have to stay out of country minimum 300 days per year to keep the U.S. from snagging taxes.

Fast forward to NWA where there the most senior furloughee was hired around 1999 and the average F/O age is probably in the high 30's, low 40's, average CA in the high 40's, low 50's. There are many who could get jobs at AirTran, jetBlue or even one of the int'l gigs.

That makes them a big unknown whether they will take a stand or not. I don't think Duane Woerth will, but the top 10% has the most to lose with no way to get it back before mandatory retirement.

We'll probably see one of those 60/40 splits one way or another where it passes by the slimmest of margins amongst one of the most heated debates ever seen in aviation, then, if they walk, we'll see the judge order them back to work anyway while they spend a year arguing the validity of a strike in court.

Labor always tends to lose, no matter WHO sits in the Oval Office.

 

[pilotyip]

Nuguy not to dispute your figures. But from my crowd of around 15 NWA acquaintances, they are all beyond their mid 40's, that is probably because I am older. The 3 furloughs we have working for us, who were hired by NWA in 2001 and early 2000 have an average age close to 40. Figuring by next spring no body working for NWA would have been hired after 1999. Figuring an average age at time of hire early 30's, say 33, 2006 is 7 years beyond, that makes it about 40 for the low end of the age group at NWA. If that is the low end that means the majority of the NWA pilots are well over 40. To the point I was making, most of the NWA pilots are not going anywhere at this point in their lives, anymore than the TWA senior pilots when anywhere in their lives when they took big pay cuts in the 1980-90’s.

 

[NuGuy]

Pilotyip,

Your demos are off. The average age hired is lower, especially 1995-2001. The majority of classes I'm familiar with were around 30 or younger.

Nu

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Nuguy-

I'm under the same impression as pilotyip. I have several family members who work for NW, one in each "book". Bluebooks held the upper hand during the hiring days while the other two books were continually retiring. Now with the massive furlough forecasts projected at NW, Bluebook will lose the upper hand and you will see Red and Greenbooks being the vast majority. Those demographics will not strike and forfeit what that have with a very small possibility of ever acheiving that same sort of lifestyle with a different carrier, albeit at a 48% paycut. You won't be able to achieve that same paycheck (post-cut) that late in life.

 

[NuGuy]

Nuguy-

I'm under the same impression as pilotyip. I have several family members who work for NW, one in each "book". Bluebooks held the upper hand during the hiring days while the other two books were continually retiring. Now with the massive furlough forecasts projected at NW, Bluebook will lose the upper hand and you will see Red and Greenbooks being the vast majority. Those demographics will not strike and forfeit what that have with a very small possibility of ever acheiving that same sort of lifestyle with a different carrier, albeit at a 48% paycut. You won't be able to achieve that same paycheck (post-cut) that late in life.

I would agree with you IF it was the same situation as USAir. At U, the pilot group was SLOWLY bled to death over the course of a couple of years. The end being that thousands of pilots were already furloughed before the "Big Question" came up. On top of that, there was a HUGE demopgraphic gap at U, where there were hundereds of pilots furloughed for several years before hiring fired up again in 1998.

In the case of NWA, the "question" will be called in the next couple of months, as management seems to be hell bent on getting an "agreement" as soon as possible. This will occur before any massive furloughs.

Nu

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Potentially... If I remember correctly, the 51 day window for the 1113 filing ends sometime in early December, right??? This takes into account that both sides don't file a motion for extension (though I highly doubt management would do anyways). But I'm kind of fuzzy on the furlough dates, but there are supposed to be a number of furloughs this quarter followed by another one in early January? This 1113 filing could potentially drag into January when there would be, again, a massive furlough occuring. Lots of variables, but I do agree with you in part.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

What exactly does that have to do with anything? If ALPA had supported the AMFA strike and walked out with them, then the result would have been an immediate Ch. 7 filing and the end of all Red Tail jobs. How exactly is that better than this?

This is the low level of thinking that brought this industry to it's current level. I have a hard time believing that people could be so clueless, you are in the same category as the mgmt that pulls the strings attached to your puppet like persona. 911 was mgmts excuse to rape and pillage the airline labor movement and they will not be happy until you are making slightly more than the local freeway offramp beggar. Newsflash toolbox, you are LABOR and subject to the whims and vagarities of the mgmt that acts as puppeteer. You think that it is some mysterious process that the lorenzo's and wolfes magically appear at the top of airline managment structures, ok here is a free one, they are "hired" to crush your worthless career to maximize corporate profits, nothing more, nothing less. You wanna know why? Read these message boards there are dozens(once hundreds), of newbie pilots who will do your job for half of what you get(wife, parents will support them). You are a dinosaur waiting for your career to sink into the mud pits of extinction, the new mgmt model is to renew the senority lists with layoffs, furloughs and other legal mechanisims designed to limit your senority to 5 years of less. After your 3rd or 4th furlough you will walk away to that lowes plumbing dept job, and make space for the next clueless toolbox who "loves flying" your passion will be exploited mercilessly until your a$$ bleeds like a child molester's in a prison cellblock. Sorry for the rant, continue with your regularly scheduled rant.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Eastern Airlines?

via the Lorenzo effect, he wanted to chop it up labor just made it easier and gave him a scapegoat.
PBR

 

[JohnDoe]

While not as "PC" as some would like.......PBR is pretty much spot-on in his assesment. As long as there are those willing to do this job for 20k a year, which there are by the thousands, nothing will change.

Just look at what NW management is hoping to obtain in their proposal. If they get it (wet-leasing, third-party vendors, etc), they will be able to replace any workgroup at-will when they cause "trouble" with the next lower bidder.

The only way to stop it at this point is to "shut it down" and that is not going to happen. Every other employee group at every other carrier has given-in over the last 5 years.

 

[Lear70]

This is the low level of thinking that brought this industry to it's current level. I have a hard time believing that people could be so clueless, you are in the same category as the mgmt that pulls the strings attached to your puppet like persona. 911 was mgmts excuse to rape and pillage the airline labor movement and they will not be happy until you are making slightly more than the local freeway offramp beggar. Newsflash toolbox, you are LABOR and subject to the whims and vagarities of the mgmt that acts as puppeteer. You think that it is some mysterious process that the lorenzo's and wolfes magically appear at the top of airline managment structures, ok here is a free one, they are "hired" to crush your worthless career to maximize corporate profits, nothing more, nothing less. You wanna know why? Read these message boards there are dozens(once hundreds), of newbie pilots who will do your job for half of what you get(wife, parents will support them). You are a dinosaur waiting for your career to sink into the mud pits of extinction, the new mgmt model is to renew the senority lists with layoffs, furloughs and other legal mechanisims designed to limit your senority to 5 years of less. After your 3rd or 4th furlough you will walk away to that lowes plumbing dept job, and make space for the next clueless toolbox who "loves flying" your passion will be exploited mercilessly until your a$$ bleeds like a child molester's in a prison cellblock. Sorry for the rant, continue with your regularly scheduled rant.
PBR

Easy killer. Calling PCL128 a "clueless toolbox who is just like mgmt" is about as far from the truth as you can get; your inability to argue his point without resorting to name calling and mud-slinging only undermines your ability to make others identify and side with your argument.

He and I differ on opinions as to how everyone banding together COULD have helped - I would have LOVED to have seen NWA pilots walk with mecanics -but, in the end, as John Doe said, you'd have a dead airline.

I agree that things will not change UNTIL people stop agreeing to work for peanuts, people put their foot down and say "no", even if it means the end of their job, and/or airlines everywhere start charging a fair ticket price.

I also know that none of those things are going to happen because people are scared, greedy, and Walmart spoiled. Sad, but true.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

While not as "PC" as some would like.......PBR is pretty much spot-on in his assesment. As long as there are those willing to do this job for 20k a year, which there are by the thousands, nothing will change.

Just look at what NW management is hoping to obtain in their proposal. If they get it (wet-leasing, third-party vendors, etc), they will be able to replace any workgroup at-will when they cause "trouble" with the next lower bidder.

The only way to stop it at this point is to "shut it down" and that is not going to happen. Every other employee group at every other carrier has given-in over the last 5 years.

JD,
As much as I wish I was wrong, I don't think I am(lots of I's). This is an industry where billions(thats B, not M) are are stake and and labor costs are aprox 40% of the bottom line.... well you get the picture. Read or reread Flying the Line the story is remarkably similar, Mr Woerth should reread the book(thats assuming he has even read it). The cycle continues over and over, and we keep playing the cheap two bit parts. Mark my words, this is not even close to being bottomed out. Nuther news flash, they(mgmt) have more to lose than you do, we, even as individuals have the power but refuse to use it. In any relationship the person(or entity) that cares the least controls it. Why do you think garbage collectors make mor than 1st and 2nd year f/o's,
Refuse Collectors 2001 Wages

Hourly wages range from

$12.09

to

$20.42

Average hourly wage

$16.04



Average annual wage

$33,372



Source: Occupational Employment Survey of Employers by EDD/LMID.
Know why? Google garbageinfo.com
nuff said
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Easy killer. Calling PCL128 a "clueless toolbox who is just like mgmt" is about as far from the truth as you can get; your inability to argue his point without resorting to name calling and mud-slinging only undermines your ability to make others identify and side with your argument.

He and I differ on opinions as to how everyone banding together COULD have helped - I would have LOVED to have seen NWA pilots walk with mecanics -but, in the end, as John Doe said, you'd have a dead airline.

I agree that things will not change UNTIL people stop agreeing to work for peanuts, people put their foot down and say "no", even if it means the end of their job, and/or airlines everywhere start charging a fair ticket price.

I also know that none of those things are going to happen because people are scared, greedy, and Walmart spoiled. Sad, but true.

Hey,
Whenever I hear drivel like that it requires a strong reply, I have been in the workforce for more than 30+ years as labor, mgmt, govt and private sector. For someone to think that Mgmt would walk away if labor stood fast is beyond silly, approaching stupidity. The Eastern lesson was about the chop shop hanger concept, lorenzo was gonna chop it up no matter what, that was how they made the fast money those days, the level of debt that NWA that had precluded the chop shop concept. I will get the crayolas out, this is how airline managment makes oodles of money, to think that they would quietly walk away from the money tree is beyond belief. You think that the plantation owner would pick his own cotton, work in the mines, fly their own planes? As labor all we have is each other, mechanics, pilots, and f/a's. They need us more than we need them, any crack smoking moron(current mgmt) can lose millions of dollars a day, I would like to see them fly a modern airliner. We have the power but are too foolish to see it. The FAA says you gotta have the required flight crew compliment to operate, nowhere do I see a requirement for wolfes, and lorenzos on the requirement to operate. How far we gonna slide?
Non-apologetic, I stand by my statments
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

What exactly does that have to do with anything? If ALPA had supported the AMFA strike and walked out with them, then the result would have been an immediate Ch. 7 filing and the end of all Red Tail jobs. How exactly is that better than this?

Thanks for repeating managment drivel. Belly up to the kool-aid bar.
PBR
See above posts

 

[whymeworry?]

OK, so you guys have the power. I agree. The question is: Will NWALPA use that power and seek self help? I can't see why y'all would vote for a contract that virtually guarantees 25% of you will lose your job. Then again, if the senior pilots vote this sh!tty concessionary contract in just to save their own ass, which is tantamount to scabism, then I supose the less senior pilots will have no choice but to move on. So how 'bout it NW? Are you guys gonna' step up to the plate and finally be the ones to say "enough is enough?

 

[dashtrash]

So how 'bout it NW? Are you guys gonna' step up to the plate and finally be the ones to say "enough is enough?

That's the real question.

 

[PCL_128]

Thanks for repeating managment drivel. Belly up to the kool-aid bar.
PBR
See above posts

Give me a break. Kool-aid drinker? Me? You've definitely got the wrong guy. I've never taken a single swallow of management kool-aid, and I don't plan to in the near future. I do however, have some common sense and have learned enough of how NWA management likes to operate.

If there's any doubt in your mind that management would risk the Ch. 7 of Northwest Airlines just to get their rocks off by trying to break labor, then you don't know NWA management very well. These guys have no problem playing a little game called "Let's bet the airline." They don't care if NWA ceases to exist. They'll just get one of their fellow Lorenzo buddies to get them a seat on the board of another airline. They don't need NWA like the rest of us do. If you think that Steenland and the rest of the NWA management crew have more to lose than we do, then you're just plain nuts. Management never has more to lose than labor. Management finds another job at the same (or higher) salary while labor starts all over at the bottom.

Believe me, management would have played a game of chicken with ALPA/AMFA about a strike threat and would have taken it all the way. The end result would be the end of Northwest Airlines. Don't delude yourself by thinking that management has more to lose than you do.

 

[Deli Guy]

Why can't management just be nice?

 

[TinGoose1]

Mean people suck.

 

[pilotyip]

Management is trying

This will be viewed a flame bait most likely but I believe managment wants to save NWA as much as anybody. But they can not do it will out stepping on someone's toes. I read prior to the mech strike, NWA had 5800 mechanics for 20 more airplanes than SWA. SWA has around 1500 mechanics. There has to be change, without change there is no NWA. Remember the battle cry of the old board during the UAL BK, Max Pay to the Last Day, then the last day came and they accepted the lower pay because it was better than anything else most of the pilots could make anywhere else. Could management have a better leadership style? maybe, but I believe they want to save NWA is spite of what the employess think of them.