Non-IFR..When is final approach determined?

[zugzug]

If you're on a straight in to a runway, at what distance or position are you actually on final approach? No FAF either. Just a VFR airport.


Thanks in advance

 

[pilotmiketx]

Riddle Instructor: 10 miles

Airline Pilot: 5 miles

 

[gkrangers]

Riddle Instructor: 10 miles

So true. The long, slow finals and wide patterns around here drive me nuts..

However long it takes you to configure your aircraft for landing and stabilize your approach is my answer, btw....

For radio call purposes...5 miles sounds good.

But your actual final approach "mode" would be what I said above, IMO. If thats a misguided notion, my apologies in advance.

 

[UGAflyer]

I wouldn't call final more than 5 miles out. Farther than that i would just call setting up for a straight in and call 5 mile final when appropriate.

 

[zugzug]

Nope

I need something more concrete. Are there any FAR's, AIM, ATC rules that give it some substance.

 

[Immelman]

I am not so sure that such an animal exists in the FARs. My personal rule of thumb would be to say where you would normally make a base to final turn is final approach, if in the pattern. In spam cans I try to, personally, keep that inside a mile.

 

[HoursHore]

I don't think a FAF is defined for Visual approaches. My guess would be on a stabilized final, On GS, aligned with centerline,On speed, Engines spooled up, in the final landing configuartion.

 

[zugzug]

No glideslope. Just a VFR airport.

 

[gkrangers]

No glideslope. Just a VFR airport.

He means glideslope not in the sense of the ILS instrument.

You are always on some kind of glide slope...you just get help on an ILS approach.

 

[zugzug]

The reason I am asking is all the talk about straight in finals.

Also, All glideslopes continue into infinity.

 

[BE200Driver]

May I ask why you need something more concrete? I'm not sure if it exists.

 

[zugzug]

Sure, I was calling on all the smarts:nuts: that are on this board to see if someone could summon up an NTSB, FAA, or what-have-you that would give the final approach segement defined boundries. This is on the lines of, an uncontrolled airport without any FAF or inst. approach.

 

[A Squared]

Sure, I was calling on all the smarts:nuts: that are on this board to see if someone could summon up an NTSB, FAA, or what-have-you that would give the final approach segement defined boundries. This is on the lines of, an uncontrolled airport without any FAF or inst. approach.

Oh. sorry, I thought you said Smart-a$$, and my ears perked right up :laugh:

Anyway, I've researched the issue before, and there is no definitive official answer. The issue came up in the context of: at what point does a right turn onto final become not a right hand pattern, but a straight in final. Like I said there is no definitive answer, but there was an case beforethe NTSB in which allegedly (according to John Yodice, AOPA's legal editor) the ALJ suggested the a turn to final 5-6 miles form the end of the runway would have been considered a "straight in" and not a right pattern. the airplane in question made a right turn onto final at 4 miles and that was found to be an illegal right pattern instead of a legal straight in approach.

I don't have the actual text of that NTSB decision but John Yodices words on the that issue may be seen in the Pilot Counsel column of the December 1995 AOPA pilot.

I don't know if any of that helps, but you may be looking for something which doesn't exist. Can you give us a little more information about why you are asking? that might help get a better answer ... I know there's a story behind this somewhere ..........

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Here is an interesting article on the topic. Doesn't really answer the root of the question, but none the less a good read.

http://www.airsport-corp.com/towarticles/feb94.html

Here's the AC for traffic patterns. Notice no real set hard definition or guidance to pilots having to use published patterns??

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/74C9017C9457E4AB862569D800780551?OpenDocument

 

[pilotmiketx]

The AIM only says to turn final not LESS than 1/4 mi from the end of the runway. I've never seen anything that says how far out that is. Just my opinion, but I'd say three criteria should be met:
1. Lined up on extended centerline
2. Descending (otherwise, it's called cruise flight)
3. Configured for landing (otherwise it's called descent)

 

[OneBadLT123]

What we usually do is call 10 miles out inbound for landing, and if we could do a straigh approach. Then 5 miles out we call again, to let atc have a heads up on our location

so usually around the 5 miles mark, we line up for the approach

 

[zugzug]

Dc8

Thank you for the good read!

Asquared.. Ok here's the story... I was @ 1500ft inverted and...... no no no that's another story. There is no story. I was asking because I could not find it anywhere. I looked and I couldn't find any hint as to what the definition for final appraoch to an uncontrolled airport was. I thank all of the few who tried. By the way, does anyone know what zugzug means?

 

[zugzug]

BTW, not to hurt anyones feelings, The this is how we do it thing is not what I was looking for. I know how it's done, I just don't know the definition of it.

 

[FN FAL]

BTW, not to hurt anyones feelings, The this is how we do it thing is not what I was looking for. I know how it's done, I just don't know the definition of it.

If you're hung up on definitions, why did you use the term "uncontrolled" airport.

 

[zugzug]

What diff did it make?

 

[FN FAL]

If you're on a straight in to a runway, at what distance or position are you actually on final approach? No FAF either. Just a VFR airport

I had this same argument with an Elmer Fudd on the ramp over at a small airport north of MSN. I called his bluff when I said go get the Feds. There is no reg on flying a straight in final.

 

[zugzug]

Did he call your bluff when the fed wouldn't comment?

 

[FN FAL]

Did he call your bluff when the fed wouldn't comment?

What fed? It was a non-towered field.

 

[zugzug]

I called his bluff when I said go get the Feds.

Facetious. If a Fed had showed... The Fed wouldn't have told you boo.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

By the way, does anyone know what zugzug means?

Warcraft!

 

[RightPedal]

If you're on a straight in to a runway, at what distance or position are you actually on final approach? No FAF either. Just a VFR airport.

I try to turn final at no more than a distance at which a power off touchdown can be made from TPA. I know this will very with different aircraft but I also know that an engine failure is most apt to occur when reducing power, or closing the throttle. I just have a thing about not reducing power until I know I can make a runway. This comes from knowing the equipment you fly. In most of what I fly, the point I see over the nose from 1000agl is where my wheels will touch the ground if I close the throttle.
So, my answer to your question is answer it yourself next time you're in the pattern.
Have fun but learn something when doing it.

 

[zugzug]

Dc8

Nope!

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Nope!

Well I know it's not starcraft, World of Warcraft maybe?

 

[Sniper Bob]

How about:

1. Aligned with runway centerline
2. At a controlled descent (on established glidepath: VASI, ILS, calculated 3-degree--take your pick)
3. In landing configuration
4. At an altitude less than or equal to pattern altitude

 

[zugzug]

How about:

1. Aligned with runway centerline
2. At a controlled descent (on established glidepath: VASI, ILS, calculated 3-degree--take your pick)
3. In landing configuration
4. At an altitude less than or equal to pattern altitude

All of these can be established many many miles from the A/P. So, if your on a 10 mile final... You are right of way to all others?