NO JS to anti-ALPA types

[Airline Driver]

Why is it just plain wrong?

Ya know. I've been on this board for a long time. I've seen half of you since you were lowly flight instructors chomping at the bit for a shinny jet. 1/2 of you are the same guys that spoke of the inequities of places like Freedom, CC Air, Go Jerks, BMA and how they've helped ruin the industry.

I spent 3 years as a jump seat committee chairman. In the end the single biggest thing that anoyed me was having to toe the "jumpseat can't be used as a weapon line". SOrry but I don't see it as a weapon. I see it as a reward and professional courtesy from one captain to another pilot. Why should that courtesy be offered and rewarded just based on a COMM cert? Why should it be offered to pilots who are not willing and committed to bettering the industry?

The jump seat is not being used as a weapon. The simple courtesy is just not being offered to those who don't work to better our profession. As it will not be offered on my a/c to the 87 original Freedom pilots, Go Jets pilots, or now skywest pilots. Sorry.

Just because someone does not agree with or Like ALPA or any Union for that matter should not dictate whether or not that person gets the jump seat. It is a matter of personal opinion on Unionization.

You might as well then deny the jump seat to everyone who is a member of the independent party VS being either a republican or democrat. I agree hold heartedly that using vulgarity is not the smartest way to Carry yourself or represent your airline. A mer I don't care for ALPA would have got the point clearly across.

I being a commuter, will always leave the jump seat open to someone trying to get home or to work. You never know when that person you are denying the jump seat to, is trying to get home for a family emergency or is on their last chance to make it to work before having to waist a sick day.

This is obviously just my opinion.

 

[evilbeef54]

Why is it just plain wrong?

The jumpseat is not being used as a weapon. The simple courtesy is just not being offered to those who don't work to better our profession. As it will not be offered on my a/c to the 87 original Freedom pilots, Go Jets pilots, or now skywest pilots. Sorry.

i have a hard time seeing how hurting your fellow ALPA members and co workers because of your personal opinion is not just plain wrong. You have to look at the big picture here, you say that you will not offer the JS to skywest because of the way the vote went, okay good for you. But what about the LARGE number of ALPA pilots that use skywest to get to and from work. What do you think is going to happen, you are gonna deny a OO guy because he is not ALPA, he will say okay, leave, but be pissed off, and what do you think is gonna happen to the next 4 or 5 ALPA guys that want a ride home on his plane. They will be told "sorry, but it was made clear that we weren't welcome on ALPA aircraft so looks like you will have to try to find another ride, oh wait we are the only one that goes into where you live, or you will have to take 2 more legs to get home, well sorry that sucks, try later" Jumpseating is a 2 way street and just because YOU wont feel any negative effects from your actions doesn't mean that a large portion of the profession (that you caim to be helping by doing this) wont be harmed. This is the same kind of self centered thinking that you are coming down on others for

 

[PCL_128]

Just because someone does not agree with or Like ALPA or any Union for that matter should not dictate whether or not that person gets the jump seat. It is a matter of personal opinion on Unionization.

Without unions, there wouldn't be any jumpseating, so if you don't like unions, then you don't deserve the privileges that they afford you. Pretty simple.

You never know when that person you are denying the jump seat to, is trying to get home for a family emergency or is on their last chance to make it to work before having to waist a sick day.

If they're a SCAB, a GoJet pilot, a Freedumb A-lister, or a Skywest NO-voter, then I really don't care.

 

[flyboyike]

I would have confined him to the jumpseat for the flight and schooled him.

Good thinking. Might actually do some good.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good thinking. Might actually do some good.

It might actually to the SKYW pilots some some good if they got out and helped push instead of riding the efforts of ALPA pilots....

Nobody likes an arrogant freeloader....

Regards to those who voted yes..

 

[Caspian27]

The simple courtesy is just not being offered to those who don't work to better our profession. As it will not be offered on my a/c to the 87 original Freedom pilots, Go Jets pilots, or now skywest pilots. Sorry.

If they're a SCAB, a GoJet pilot, a Freedumb A-lister, or a Skywest NO-voter, then I really don't care.

Good grief people. I can't believe you'd even make a comparison of SkyWest to Freedom A-listers or Go-Jetter's to SkyWest pilots. Both of those airlines were originally conceived to circumvent scope restrictions of USAir and AA and thus the ability of the unionized pilot groups at Mesa and TSA to fly bigger planes or upgrade into those seats. SkyWest was not conceived to circumvent a unionized pilot group at an airline owned by the same holding company. It's been around for 35 years...the pilot's that went to Freedom-A and GoJet knew they screwing the Mesa and TSA pilots and did so willingly. There is no similar situation to compare at SkyWest.

Is ALPA, not just being a union member, but specifically ALPA such a religion to some of you that you'd deny someone the right to see their family because they thought ALPA, not unions, was not right for SkyWest right now? Most SkyWest pilots that I know are not anti-union, very many came from other unionized part 121 carriers (myself included). They just felt that ALPA was not a good fit for SkyWest at the present time. Again, most are not anti-union. Don't fault some for doing what they thought best for the pilot's right now.

So I ask...if ALPA is what you have to be to have a jumpseat on your planes, will you deny:
-JetBlue (non-union)
-US Airways- East (openly trying to oust ALPA)
-United (many very, very vocal against ALPA)
-AirTran (non-ALPA)
-American (non-ALPA)
-Southwest (non-ALPA)
-Republic Airways Holdings (non-ALPA)
-Great Lakes (non-ALPA)
-etc.

To follow your argument logically: SkyWest voted no to ALPA...therefore they are scabs and should be denied the jumpseat; then any other non-ALPA carrier is in the same situation and should get the same treatment. Every pilot from the list above should be denied by your logic. Additionally, a scab is traditionally someone who refuses to join a union at an already unionized workplace or someone who crossed a picket line. No SkyWest pilot has done these things.

I just ask all of us to tone down the passions a bit and think about these things logically, and with an empathy towards those on the other side. And remember: a bunch of us voted yes, myself included. A vast majority of SkyWest pilots care deeply about the profession and making it better for them, their company and the industry.

C27

 

[PCL_128]

C27, it's not about being non-ALPA, it's about actively making a decision to be completely non-union. The Skywest pilots have voted against ALPA twice, and against an in-house union once. If they don't want to join the rest of the unionized pilots in this industry to better our profession, then the NO-voters don't deserve the benefit of a union-negotiated privilege like jumpseating.

 

[Caspian27]

C27, it's not about being non-ALPA, it's about actively making a decision to be completely non-union. The Skywest pilots have voted against ALPA twice, and against an in-house union once. If they don't want to join the rest of the unionized pilots in this industry to better our profession, then the NO-voters don't deserve the benefit of a union-negotiated privilege like jumpseating.

Thanks for the reply.

PCL, I respect your opinion and your right as PIC of an aircraft to do what you deem best for your airplane any given day. Including what you do with your jumpseat.

However I must respectfully disagree with your stance in this case. Over half of the SkyWest pilot group was hired in the last few years and most of these pilot's weren't around for the previous union drives ( I myself was at another carrier). How are you going to differentiate a NO-voter? You don't know how each individual voted, so you'll choose to punish every SkyWest pilot that wants to go home and see their family, including those that said yes?

I really do think that most SkyWest pilots respect the profession and want to improve it for everyone. Many of the SkyWest pilots felt that ALPA specifically wasn't right for us now. So should they vote in something that they think will hurt the company now, or wait for an opportunity for a chance to do something better? I really think that many, if not most of our pilot's want a union...but don't want it to be ALPA. It's interesting that many UAL pilots and USAir east pilots were openly telling many of us to not vote in ALPA. Unfortunately in this vote we only had the choice of voting ALPA or nothing. It was a tough position. For some of us, it was like voting for President. You try to choose the lesser of two evils. Each pilot did what they thought best.

Again I ask, how will you differentiate those that said yes or no? And why would you punish the yes pilots by banning the entire group? Additionally, do you really believe that SkyWest pilots as a whole are on par with Freedom-A or GoJet? (I'm talking again about those that voted yes as well) Because I just don't see how they can even be in the same ballpark for the reasons I cited in my previous post.

On a side note, just for curiosity, do you allow jetBlue jumpseaters on your plane?

Respectfully,
C27

 

[A350]

PCL:

Your logic defies intelligence.

The union may have been the purveyor of the jumpseat and all that we hold holy about it....but your insistence that union=jumpseat and non-union=no jumpseat is whacked.

Many airlines have extremely liberal jumpseat agreements and are not union. Why? At non-union carriers, there is no need for give and take negotiations which put things like the jumpseat on the table to be used as a chip in the bargaining process. Ask the DAL guys about the jumpseat and collective bargaining.

The Skywest pilots believe, like the USAirways East guys, that ALPA representation is not in their best interests. IMO, it is up to ALPA to prove their worth. If they can't, it isn't the Skywest pilots fault.

A350

 

[CFIT]

C27, it's not about being non-ALPA, it's about actively making a decision to be completely non-union. The Skywest pilots have voted against ALPA twice, and against an in-house union once. If they don't want to join the rest of the unionized pilots in this industry to better our profession, then the NO-voters don't deserve the benefit of a union-negotiated privilege like jumpseating.

Don't forget, we also voted down Teamsters too.

 

[Airline Driver]

Without unions, there wouldn't be any jumpseating, so if you don't like unions, then you don't deserve the privileges that they afford you. Pretty simple.



If they're a SCAB, a GoJet pilot, a Freedumb A-lister, or a Skywest NO-voter, then I really don't care.

Just because I do not like Unions does not mean I do not support Unions. As I stated before, I do not care for them and have good reason for my opinion. I will always support my union reps and I will never cross a picket line. I do not Like the Iraq War but I do support my troops.

So let me ask you this, I am a regesterd independant, does this mean that because I am not a republican or democrat that I do not deserve to Vote? A Scab you have me them I agree with you about that. Gojet Pilots, Sorry, They have not crossed the picket line. They just do not have a union. Colgan does not have a union either. Are you going to deny them the jumpseat too? I have talked with both of those Pilot groups and they wil always be welcome on my jumpseat.

In my opinion you seem to be hurting the cause more than helping. Remember "UNLESS" you cross the picket line, then we are all family we do the same job just at differant places. This is America and It's our right to work were we so choose.

 

[PCL_128]

How are you going to differentiate a NO-voter?

Ask them. They can certainly lie if they want to, but if they admit to voting NO, then no free ride. Pretty simple. I wouldn't deny every Skywest jumpseat, because many of them voted YES. I worked on the Skywest drive for ALPA National, and I met many great Skywest pilots that have their head on straight, so I would never advocate a blanket denial of all Skywest pilots, but anyone who admits to voting NO shouldn't be given any respect or professional courtesy.

Additionally, do you really believe that SkyWest pilots as a whole are on par with Freedom-A or GoJet?

Those that voted NO are certainly pretty damned close.

 

[PCL_128]

Remember "UNLESS" you cross the picket line, then we are all family we do the same job just at differant places.

Ummm, no. If you're anti-union, then we most certainly are not part of the same "family." If you're not union, then you're part of the problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

However I must respectfully disagree with your stance in this case. Over half of the SkyWest pilot group was hired in the last few years and most of these pilot's weren't around for the previous union drives ( I myself was at another carrier).

I think we did a good job getting the word out. The SKYW pilots were either ignorant or selfish...

How are you going to differentiate a NO-voter? You don't know how each individual voted, so you'll choose to punish every SkyWest pilot that wants to go home and see their family, including those that said yes?

They can hang together or seperately. A choice they made no doubt.

Many of us want to go home and see our families...but we volunteer our time to make the profession better... and the SKYW pilots just gave us the symbolic middle finger... at least that is the message we received...

I really do think that most SkyWest pilots respect the profession and want to improve it for everyone.

I find no integrity or value in this statement. sure you might or maybe WANT this....but HOW are you going to improve the profession....

Many of the SkyWest pilots felt that ALPA specifically wasn't right for us now.

Cause you got a sweet carve out... you know that your pay rates are based on an understanding of..."keep the union away and you'll keep your pay"

So should they vote in something that they think will hurt the company now, or wait for an opportunity for a chance to do something better?

Total BS.

Courage. Strength. Professionalism.

I really think that many, if not most of our pilot's want a union...but don't want it to be ALPA.

Mixed messages are fodder to gov't and industry...

It's interesting that many UAL pilots and USAir east pilots were openly telling many of us to not vote in ALPA.

They are speaking from the "What is in it for me" position.... did they speak of the professional contributions of the association?

Unfortunately in this vote we only had the choice of voting ALPA or nothing.

Well that is because no one else really cared...

It was a tough position.

No. The choice was easy... it was the courage that was tough....

For some of us, it was like voting for President. You try to choose the lesser of two evils. Each pilot did what they thought best.

............for himself.... not the profession... but to be honest... without the profession, can you imagine what this job would be...

Again I ask, how will you differentiate those that said yes or no? And why would you punish the yes pilots by banning the entire group?

You all decided to hang together. Look man, as time goes on... more and more forces are going to polarize pilots... without being a part of a professional group you are simply going to be picked off...

Additionally, do you really believe that SkyWest pilots as a whole are on par with Freedom-A or GoJet? (I'm talking again about those that voted yes as well) Because I just don't see how they can even be in the same ballpark for the reasons I cited in my previous post.

Of course not.. Because you don't want to feel that way about yourself..

On a side note, just for curiosity, do you allow jetBlue jumpseaters on your plane?

Not many were thrilled with the little fatigue/human factors experiment those guys ran...

Your logic defies intelligence.

Maybe the mud from the trenches has tainted his thinking..

The union may have been the purveyor of the jumpseat and all that we hold holy about it....but your insistence that union=jumpseat and non-union=no jumpseat is whacked.

ALPA saved jumpseated after 9/11. Any questions?

Many airlines have extremely liberal jumpseat agreements and are not union. Why? At non-union carriers, there is no need for give and take negotiations which put things like the jumpseat on the table to be used as a chip in the bargaining process. Ask the DAL guys about the jumpseat and collective bargaining.

After unions took the lead on jumpseating..why would a non union carrier make itself look bad...

The DAL guys should be ashamed of not negotiating a better j/s policy... all while they rode around on CMR and ASA..unlimited..

The Skywest pilots believe, like the USAirways East guys, that ALPA representation is not in their best interests.

That is right... they are looking at it from a personal perspective.. what is in it for me... not from a profession first....

IMO, it is up to ALPA to prove their worth. If they can't, it isn't the Skywest pilots fault.

If you want to see my ALPA resume I think I have proven my worth as a volunteer. So has PCL128. So has Occams Razor, so has FDJ2, Captain X, UALPilot, Neal and all the other "cheerleaders".

We can't volunteer for everyone. We can't vote for everyone. We can't make them read, get educated, think critically and change thier mindset from being served to serving....

No, the proving of worth is in each individual.....

 

[30West]

So if someone doesn't care for unions they don't jumpseat. So let's take it a step further. Cancel all jumpseat privileges for non union pilots. Of course, those non union carriers would immediately reciprocate. Now, how many of your union brothers and sisters must use non union carriers to get to work? You've just screwed your own people.

I personally don't answer union related questions while jumpseating. Like my political/religious beliefs, my opinions on unions are my own. You want to talk sports, boats or which one of the F/A's you did on the overnight that's cool. Other than that, all I'm interested in is a ride home.
Over the past 11 years I have worked for three ALPA carriers and one non union carrier, and up until only a couple years ago have I ever heard so much poo throwing over jumpseating.

It's absolutely embarrassing. One of the reasons I'm glad I'm home based now.

 

[bobbyice]

I'll give anyone who requests my jumpseat a ride. Just be prepared to talk about college football and hot women. The last thing I want to talk about at work is work. Everyone is welcome, even John Peniskramp. Just don't talk about airplanes or flying. Thanks.

Oh yeah, and Happy Thanksgiving to all!

 

[strega7]

but if they admit to voting NO, then no free ride. Pretty simple.

And then that pissed jumpseater returns to the terminal and finds the first "airport official" he can and says, "something is wrong with that captian, he may be drunk or on something." When that person asks why you honestly tell them the captain was acting illogically (about the JS request) and only a drunk/high pilot MIGHT act like that. Then you walk away while all hell breaks loose. Be careful out there.

 

[Ridgeback]

They use threats and fear as well as punishment to try and force people to join. quote]

I like to hear how you define a threat. It seems to me this capt followed through by not allowing him the jumpseat...

 

[Airline Driver]

Ummm, no. If you're anti-union, then we most certainly are not part of the same "family." If you're not union, then you're part of the

You really don't read between the lines very well do you? Just because I do not like unions, does not mean I do not support unions. I am not anti union. I never said I am Anti union. I just said I do not like unions. Believe it or not there is a difference.

You may not like to eat fish, but it is good for you. We need Unions in our industry for our protection. I guess what I should have said is that I am for, or Pro, In house Unionization. Both Teamsters and ALPA need an overhaul, they need fresh blood in their hierarchy. They both need to do a better job representing people vs worrying about how much money they are going to make off of a pilot group.

If you look at the trend of the future or "OUT SIDE THE BOX" in other words look beyond the end of your nose, you will see that pilot groups are moving toward the end of third party representation and moving to in house unionization. Now Just to make my point clear, I never said get rid of Unions all together, I said Unionize in house, that means form your own independent company Pilot Union!!

 

[Jmoney]

Bottom Line

Here's the bottom line:

It is ALWAYS the Captains' jumpseat!

-That is one of the nice things about the industry we are in.

-There are a small handful of people I would deny jumpseat to-and just remember-"What Goes Around Comes Around!" Especially in this industry.

-If I know you are an Eastern scab-you won't ride!

-I I know you are Instructordude, Skynation, or Hellonewman, you not only will not ride, but you will get a complementary kick to the nuts for even trying.

-If you are on my own person S-itlist: (about 10 people,) your butt will be left behind.

Face it-you are asking for professional courtesy-you are asking for a free ride. If you are not amenable and appreciative-find another way to get where you are going. If I figure out you have done damage to the future of our industry-you wll not damage the jumpseat of my aircraft with your pink hiney!

-Take special note-Skynation! We shall meet one day-

-Footsteps.....