No growth at SW until 2016 now

[fr8doggie]

More than air tran, and that ultimately comes down to the psychology of the group. We are happy to wait out our situation. Air tran wasn't willing to not be Swapa.

In order to have leverage you need to have the collective will to force management to do something it does not want to do. I don't believe that SWAPA has that. I speak from the experience of 24 years at FDX. Whether we were non-union, ALPA I, FPA, or ALPA II we really haven't been very willing to put hard pressure on management to achieve our goals. The only time we got close (1998, 97% strike vote) our union (FPA) leadership totally collapsed.

How long have you been negotiating for your next contract? In the end you will accept a "flattish" contract and your union leadership will spin it as a win.

It's your culture.

Fr8-

 

[nwaf16dude]

More than air tran, and that ultimately comes down to the psychology of the group. We are happy to wait out our situation.

When the company is "happy to wait" the pilots being happy to wait isn't much leverage.

Serious question, not trying to be a smart-ass...Is there something that SWA wants from SWAPA that makes them less than happy to wait?

 

[Tripower455]

Is there something that SWA wants from SWAPA that makes them less than happy to wait?

Not at the moment. We gave them everything they've asked for via side letters, most DURING section 6 "negotiations".........

At least we got something tangible out of them.... oh, wait, no we didn't.

 

[fr8doggie]

Not at the moment. We gave them everything they've asked for via side letters, most DURING section 6 "negotiations".........



At least we got something tangible out of them.... oh, wait, no we didn't.

You know, you are probably going to wake up one morning and find a horse's head in your bed.

You are the only RSW pilot I have ever heard of who does not seem to worship at the altar of "All Things SWA".

 

[Tripower455]

You know, you are probably going to wake up one morning and find a horse's head in your bed.

You are the only RSW pilot I have ever heard of who does not seem to worship at the altar of "All Things SWA".

Never have and never will. I'm a pragmatist. SW was a great company, and a great place to work for many years, but things are changing, and not for the better IMHO. Like most of the other airlines I've worked for, the only thing I look forward to when going to work anymore is seeing my friends. We've still got a good bunch of folks working here, and that includes the former AT folks (with a few exceptions...... on both sides)

SWApA has and continues to be an arm of the company. Every so often, a few rabble rousers make it past the Kool Aid stand, but typically, they're painted as malcontents, rendered ineffective and shown the door on the next election cycle. The list of former SWApA officers that are now in managerial positions is staggering, well, to anyone except the typical SWApA pilot.

What other union negotiates SL letters, that gain NOTHING (a few were even concessionary) for it's members, DURING contract negotiations? Then they sell the SLs to the membership as is they were somehow beneficial to the group, and of course, the sheep gobble it up and vote yes.

After over 2 years of "negotiating", the company makes a "regressive" (concessionary) offer, and people walk around shocked/insulted. The sad thing is that had that offer been a TA and put to a membership vote, these same folks would've passed it without batting an eye. The even sadder thing is that they will vote yes on an even worse offer, 2 years from now.....

 

[PCL_128]

We are happy to wait out our situation.

And so is management. Hence, no leverage. They don't need a new contract. You want one.

Other legacies are leapfrogging us, a shortage is looming. They're already hiring bc we had a dozen pilots leave for delta. Swa mgmt had more leverage in 2009 than today.

I agree that you are in a better position today than in 2009. But that will only translate to real leverage if you're willing to engage in industrial action. If you're not willing to pick up that picket sign because you're too loyal to the company, then you're left with nothing.

And we are the largest domestic carrier with record profits. Just bc the legacy cycle is on the upswing of their wild swing tendencies, doesn't mean we are performing bad.

I didn't say that you're performing bad. But you're not performing like the other legacies, and that's what the NMB is going to look at. The company is going to make the case to the Board that you don't have the cost competitiveness that you used to, and without the global route network to get the highest yielding business passengers, they won't be able to grow unless they regain that cost advantage. They'll show the Board your profits in the few hundred millions range, and put them on a bar graph with Delta's eclipsing them by several times. The Board will nod and tell SWAPA to get real. That is the reality of bargaining under the RLA. Welcome to the club. The days of asking for a raise and getting it are over.

The biggest leverage mgmt gave us? They gave themselves raises....

Sorry, but that gave you exactly ZERO leverage. The Board doesn't care.

 

[vixin]

You are the only RSW pilot I have ever heard of who does not seem to worship at the altar of "All Things SWA".

Add me to that list. Heck I have my strike fund saved up. I know Ill never get to use it, but its their. Enough to sit on my butt for at least 2 years.

The biggest leverage mgmt gave us? They gave themselves raises.... Sorry, but that gave you exactly ZERO leverage. The Board doesn't care.

Our management actually didn't take a raise this year. Plus the board gives GK his raise. He doesn't just give to himself.

If you're not willing to pick up that picket sign

I will get in line. It could be you me and 1700 FATS for all I care. Maybe a couple hundred RSW's. But I wouldn't count on that. They are still having a FLAP vs speed break discussion on the SWAPA forum that has more importance.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, here's some leverage for you-- Southwest has several hundred 737-Max's on order. Our CBA doesn't allow anyone to fly them yet; the CBA would have to be opened and terms agreed upon. The verbiage says that any other plane other than the 737-300, -500, -700, or -800 requires a reopener. Those planes are supposed to hit our pavement in early 2017, so they'll want agreements sometime in 2016. According to GK, they are the future of Southwest.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Bubba

 

[vixin]

And our weak ass union will send 21-0 just to fly shiny new jets. I bet they can get us another useless GDO.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, here's some leverage for you-- Southwest has several hundred 737-Max's on order. Our CBA doesn't allow anyone to fly them yet; the CBA would have to be opened and terms agreed upon. The verbiage says that any other plane other than the 737-300, -500, -700, or -800 requires a reopener. Those planes are supposed to hit our pavement in early 2017, so they'll want agreements sometime in 2016. According to GK, they are the future of Southwest.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Bubba

I'm too lazy to dig through your contract for the answer, but most CBAs have a provision for arbitration if an agreement can't be reached by the time new airplanes are supposed to show up. Does yours?

 

[freightdogfred]

Well, here's some leverage for you-- Southwest has several hundred 737-Max's on order. Our CBA doesn't allow anyone to fly them yet; the CBA would have to be opened and terms agreed upon. The verbiage says that any other plane other than the 737-300, -500, -700, or -800 requires a reopener. Those planes are supposed to hit our pavement in early 2017, so they'll want agreements sometime in 2016. According to GK, they are the future of Southwest.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Bubba

So let me get this straight. Hard line SWAPA MEC members are going to hold up delivery of 737-Max by playing hardball with GK?

Did you know Pinocchio was a good motivational speaker

 

[PCL_128]

"You have potential! And you have poten....uh oh." Love that commercial.

 

[Tripower455]

And our weak ass union will send 21-0 just to fly shiny new jets.

Exactly.... Pilots like shiny jets!

I bet they can get us another useless GDO.

I'll take that bet....

Heck, I bet we give up a "GDO", and other stuff so Gary doesn't "shelve" the SHINY JETS! Maybe we can even get another contract extension! Maybe we'll even give up a few hard won SWApA "gains", like DTC.

 

[Tripower455]

They are still having a FLAP vs speed break discussion on the SWAPA forum that has more importance.

Don't forget the multi page forum discussions about the all important van times, putting money on a giveaway trip, vacation block bidding and the "unfair" distribution of POT......... All of which will be MOOT points once "we" vote in PBS........

The sad thing is that the forum participants are the most "plugged in" SWApA members, and even they will argue incessantly about whether or not it's OK to operate the airplane within Boeing's limitations, limiting "cartel" activities (as long as it doesn't affect "me") and the morality of putting $200 on a giveaway trip.

As soon as something comes up for a vote, the spin starts, and the "smartest men in the room" starts selling it.

 

[vetrider]

....... They are still having a FLAP vs speed break discussion on the SWAPA forum that has more importance.

Landing gear

 

[HowardBorden]

I didn't say that you're performing bad. But you're not performing like the other legacies, and that's what the NMB is going to look at. The company is going to make the case to the Board that you don't have the cost competitiveness that you used to, and without the global route network to get the highest yielding business passengers, they won't be able to grow unless they regain that cost advantage. They'll show the Board your profits in the few hundred millions range, and put them on a bar graph with Delta's eclipsing them by several times. The Board will nod and tell SWAPA to get real. That is the reality of bargaining under the RLA. Welcome to the club. The days of asking for a raise and getting it are over.

If SWAPA can't effectively make the argument to the NMB that we don't have the cost competitiveness that we used to is solely because of lack of ancillary fees i.e. BAGGAGE FEES, then we are doomed. If you added in bag fees and then placed our revenues on a bar graph with Delta it would be a much different graph. We don't have a cost problem, our CASM is near industry leading. We have a revenue problem.

 

[fr8doggie]

You are sadly mistaken if you think the NMB is going to go to bat for SWAPA. That's not their function.

 

[HowardBorden]

You are sadly mistaken if you think the NMB is going to go to bat for SWAPA. That's not their function.

Not asking for them to go to bat for SWAPA, but simply be able to look at our CASM compared to the industry and realize we do not have a cost problem.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Well, here's some leverage for you-- Southwest has several hundred 737-Max's on order. Our CBA doesn't allow anyone to fly them yet; the CBA would have to be opened and terms agreed upon. The verbiage says that any other plane other than the 737-300, -500, -700, or -800 requires a reopener. Those planes are supposed to hit our pavement in early 2017, so they'll want agreements sometime in 2016. According to GK, they are the future of Southwest.

I guess we'll see what happens.

Bubba

Bubba,

You might want to check with SWAPA about this. You won't be happy with what they say.

 

[PCL_128]

If SWAPA can't effectively make the argument to the NMB that we don't have the cost competitiveness that we used to is solely because of lack of ancillary fees i.e. BAGGAGE FEES, then we are doomed. If you added in bag fees and then placed our revenues on a bar graph with Delta it would be a much different graph. We don't have a cost problem, our CASM is near industry leading. We have a revenue problem.

Sorry, but the Board doesn't care. They don't tell airlines how to manage their revenue (or their costs). They simply look at the picture that is presented in the facts and figures. If the revenue and profits aren't there, then they just aren't there. The reasons for it are beyond their function. Welcome to the frustrating world of real RLA bargaining. It'll make you want to bang your head against a brick wall until it bleeds, but you have to learn how to deal with it.