NMB to ASA: keep negotiating

[~~~^~~~]

duplicate

 

[Tomct]

For those of you kind enough to read my thread on the "silent majority", I thank you.

As I stated on that thread, WITH OUR CURRENT DEMANDS ON 50 SEAT RATES WE WILL NOT BE RELEASED!!!! I also pointed out that the ALPA reps have already acknowledged that the current ASA offer would pass at around 60%. So imagine this:

We lower our pay demands to "at or near" current SKW rates and work instead on liveable COLA increases over the contract. Use the remainder of any negotiating capital on what we can acheive in scope. (we ain't gettin single list....the mona lisa aint for sale) Instead of damning the company to extinction with full retro, work for a more acheivable $5mil or so signing bonus.

The best scope on a deal like this is that there is no economical advantage to disassemble ASA. Contrare: we are now a stable, cost competitive regional with known costs ready to bid on more flying where SKW inc simply can't go. (due to no compete clauses)

I'm betting the 60% silent majority becomes 75+ right away.

The company has to pay for dragging this out. 100%retro or NO DEAL! Pay better be atleast 5% above skywst or forget it! The rest is fine...the one list is a dead corpse. Tie growth airplanes to ASA pilots and get this damn thing done!!!

 

[scarlet]

Wilson Polling ask WAY to many questions--

Be there on thursday!!

If things don't change we VOTE them out!!!

WE will never be RELEASED--ALL MEC buddies get it through your HEAD !!!
What happen to "Oh we are released this time we promise" are you guys from MARS ?? Negotiate!

 

[GeekMaster]

The company has to pay for dragging this out. 100%retro or NO DEAL! Pay better be atleast 5% above skywst or forget it! The rest is fine...the one list is a dead corpse. Tie growth airplanes to ASA pilots and get this damn thing done!!!

I wish as much as anyone we could make them pay for dragging this out. The fact is that 100% retro is the ONLY way to make them pay. Otherwise, it will have been a cost savings for dragging this out. The problem is that we WILL NOT get 100% retro without a release.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED WITH OUR CURRENT 50 SEAT RATE DEMANDS!!! That's a done deal with the NMB. They've now realized they can reduce the negotiating sessions to two every 2-3 months instead of the previous 6. (3 per week for 2 weeks) So now it doesn't even tie up all that much of their resources.

I know that our demands on the 50 are inline with CHQ and Express Jet. The problem is we're not competing with CHQ and Express Jet, we're competing with SKW in the eyes of Skywest Inc.

Here's the scenario that will play out:

The vish-ass cycle will continue EXACTLY as it has and we may even see an occasional "parking" for as long as the current political party holds office.

If for some reason we did get released, we will NOT strike. SKW will give us EVERYTHING we are currently asking for including scope. (our current scope demands won't save ANYBODY'S job that already works here)

Contract or not: within the next year, the "retire and award" program will make it's first appearance at ASA. The only thing to be determined is whether we will be participants on the "award" side of the equation. This program is extremely efficient for SKW inc and A/C companies alike. It allows them to retire aging airplanes at fair market value to buyers abroad and award new 70 seat airplanes "wherever they are most cost efficient" without being subject to any scope language currently in ASA ALPA's scope demands. On top of that, it cuts the cost of "moving" airplanes to "neglible" since it eliminates the C-check and pilot training costs.

If we get released and get that contract we're currently asking for, the "retire and release" program will go into full tilt until all 50 seaters are nearly gone. ASA will remain in a much smaller form to cover flying that is prohibited due to "no compete" clauses by Skywest Air. You might even see 8 year captains flying "junior right seat". (Ask Piedmont if that can happen)

For those of you who say "If they're going to kill the airline anyway, why not strike?", there is another option. At or near SKW 50 seat rates for now with annual COLA, a respectable signing bonus,(the company WILL pay up to 5mil once SKW style rates are agreed to) and job security through means of being a cost competitive. (no reason to kill an airline that has all its ducks in a row)

I KNOW SKYWEST CAN AFFORD TO PAY US WITH OUR PROFIT MARGINS!! I KNOW WE NEED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE!!! I KNOW ALPA NATIONAL WANTS A BIG CONTRACT TO HOLD UP TO SKYWEST PILOTS TO SHOW THEM THE VALUE OF ALPA!!!

But unless we miraculously get a release while the Skywest pilots magicly vote in ALPA in the next few weeks, the scenario above WILL play out.

I voted to support the strike. At the time of the vote the company was still offering us sub SKW with 70 wage cuts. I would have gladly walked the picket line over that.

But now it's time for a gut check. For those of you ready to ride this down in flames, answer this. Do you believe in majority rules or that "this pilot group is too stupid to know what's good for them"? If you are planning to stay here, are you willing allow ALPA National use your career as a recruiting tool for SKW pilots? If you are NOT planning to stay here, why are you so eager to destroy the careers of others over an amount of money so small that it won't change your life anyway. (before you argue that if the amount is so small then why not get it.....remember you have to multiply that small amount by 1600)

IT'S NOT CAVING IN, IT'S KNOWING WHEN TO WALK AWAY FROM THE CRAPS TABLE WITH YOUR CURRENT WINNINGS!!!! Remember every Gambler knows that if you stay at the table "long enough".....the house always wins.

 

[Crash Pad]

The company has to pay for dragging this out. 100%retro or NO DEAL! Pay better be atleast 5% above skywst or forget it! The rest is fine...the one list is a dead corpse. Tie growth airplanes to ASA pilots and get this damn thing done!!!

Tomct:
Good to see you my CRAZY CAP LOCK friend. I see you have GOTTEN better on the CAP Lock issue. I think the last talk we had ended with me saying "I bet you $100 we don't get released"... you didn't take the bet.

I see that I was right and you were wrong. So are you now willing to reevaluate your position and conclude that maybe we don't stand a chance of release until 08?

While I appreciate your soviet style hard line I think you are unclear of our position. We have been routed. The NMB will not release us. The company is pushing 5 years of negotiations. SKYW holds the keys to all our A/C and is more than willing to take them and our jobs away. Our fleet is largely obsolete (50 seaters). We don't even control the ramp in ATL anymore.

Your way of thinking while humerous is for a different era. The cheese has moved. You are obsolete.

 

[ohplease!]

I wish as much as anyone we could make them pay for dragging this out. The fact is that 100% retro is the ONLY way to make them pay. Otherwise, it will have been a cost savings for dragging this out. The problem is that we WILL NOT get 100% retro without a release.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED WITH OUR CURRENT 50 SEAT RATE DEMANDS!!! That's a done deal with the NMB. They've now realized they can reduce the negotiating sessions to two every 2-3 months instead of the previous 6. (3 per week for 2 weeks) So now it doesn't even tie up all that much of their resources.

I know that our demands on the 50 are inline with CHQ and Express Jet. The problem is we're not competing with CHQ and Express Jet, we're competing with SKW in the eyes of Skywest Inc.

Here's the scenario that will play out:

The vish-ass cycle will continue EXACTLY as it has and we may even see an occasional "parking" for as long as the current political party holds office.

If for some reason we did get released, we will NOT strike. SKW will give us EVERYTHING we are currently asking for including scope. (our current scope demands won't save ANYBODY'S job that already works here)

Contract or not: within the next year, the "retire and award" program will make it's first appearance at ASA. The only thing to be determined is whether we will be participants on the "award" side of the equation. This program is extremely efficient for SKW inc and A/C companies alike. It allows them to retire aging airplanes at fair market value to buyers abroad and award new 70 seat airplanes "wherever they are most cost efficient" without being subject to any scope language currently in ASA ALPA's scope demands. On top of that, it cuts the cost of "moving" airplanes to "neglible" since it eliminates the C-check and pilot training costs.

If we get released and get that contract we're currently asking for, the "retire and release" program will go into full tilt until all 50 seaters are nearly gone. ASA will remain in a much smaller form to cover flying that is prohibited due to "no compete" clauses by Skywest Air. You might even see 8 year captains flying "junior right seat". (Ask Piedmont if that can happen)

For those of you who say "If they're going to kill the airline anyway, why not strike?", there is another option. At or near SKW 50 seat rates for now with annual COLA, a respectable signing bonus,(the company WILL pay up to 5mil once SKW style rates are agreed to) and job security through means of being a cost competitive. (no reason to kill an airline that has all its ducks in a row)

I KNOW SKYWEST CAN AFFORD TO PAY US WITH OUR PROFIT MARGINS!! I KNOW WE NEED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE!!! I KNOW ALPA NATIONAL WANTS A BIG CONTRACT TO HOLD UP TO SKYWEST PILOTS TO SHOW THEM THE VALUE OF ALPA!!!

But unless we miraculously get a release while the Skywest pilots magicly vote in ALPA in the next few weeks, the scenario above WILL play out.

I voted to support the strike. At the time of the vote the company was still offering us sub SKW with 70 wage cuts. I would have gladly walked the picket line over that.

But now it's time for a gut check. For those of you ready to ride this down in flames, answer this. Do you believe in majority rules or that "this pilot group is too stupid to know what's good for them"? If you are planning to stay here, are you willing allow ALPA National use your career as a recruiting tool for SKW pilots? If you are NOT planning to stay here, why are you so eager to destroy the careers of others over an amount of money so small that it won't change your life anyway. (before you argue that if the amount is so small then why not get it.....remember you have to multiply that small amount by 1600)

IT'S NOT CAVING IN, IT'S KNOWING WHEN TO WALK AWAY FROM THE CRAPS TABLE WITH YOUR CURRENT WINNINGS!!!! Remember every Gambler knows that if you stay at the table "long enough".....the house always wins.

I agree with you. You need to be there Thursday and express those same thoughts in person to the MEC/CNC and the rest of the crowd. I'm tired of hearing this same line of thinking from so many people while at work and then NEVER hearing anyone raise the same issues around the alpa dudes.

Its time.

 

[buscap]

I agree with you. You need to be there Thursday and express those same thoughts in person to the MEC/CNC and the rest of the crowd. I'm tired of hearing this same line of thinking from so many people while at work and then NEVER hearing anyone raise the same issues around the alpa dudes.

Its time.

He won't be there. We don't let management attend. And Oh by the way, he has a family commitment that day.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I wish as much as anyone we could make them pay for dragging this out. The fact is that 100% retro is the ONLY way to make them pay. Otherwise, it will have been a cost savings for dragging this out. The problem is that we WILL NOT get 100% retro without a release.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE RELEASED WITH OUR CURRENT 50 SEAT RATE DEMANDS!!! That's a done deal with the NMB. They've now realized they can reduce the negotiating sessions to two every 2-3 months instead of the previous 6. (3 per week for 2 weeks) So now it doesn't even tie up all that much of their resources.

I know that our demands on the 50 are inline with CHQ and Express Jet. The problem is we're not competing with CHQ and Express Jet, we're competing with SKW in the eyes of Skywest Inc.

Here's the scenario that will play out:

The vish-ass cycle will continue EXACTLY as it has and we may even see an occasional "parking" for as long as the current political party holds office.

If for some reason we did get released, we will NOT strike. SKW will give us EVERYTHING we are currently asking for including scope. (our current scope demands won't save ANYBODY'S job that already works here)

Contract or not: within the next year, the "retire and award" program will make it's first appearance at ASA. The only thing to be determined is whether we will be participants on the "award" side of the equation. This program is extremely efficient for SKW inc and A/C companies alike. It allows them to retire aging airplanes at fair market value to buyers abroad and award new 70 seat airplanes "wherever they are most cost efficient" without being subject to any scope language currently in ASA ALPA's scope demands. On top of that, it cuts the cost of "moving" airplanes to "neglible" since it eliminates the C-check and pilot training costs.

If we get released and get that contract we're currently asking for, the "retire and release" program will go into full tilt until all 50 seaters are nearly gone. ASA will remain in a much smaller form to cover flying that is prohibited due to "no compete" clauses by Skywest Air. You might even see 8 year captains flying "junior right seat". (Ask Piedmont if that can happen)

For those of you who say "If they're going to kill the airline anyway, why not strike?", there is another option. At or near SKW 50 seat rates for now with annual COLA, a respectable signing bonus,(the company WILL pay up to 5mil once SKW style rates are agreed to) and job security through means of being a cost competitive. (no reason to kill an airline that has all its ducks in a row)

I KNOW SKYWEST CAN AFFORD TO PAY US WITH OUR PROFIT MARGINS!! I KNOW WE NEED TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE!!! I KNOW ALPA NATIONAL WANTS A BIG CONTRACT TO HOLD UP TO SKYWEST PILOTS TO SHOW THEM THE VALUE OF ALPA!!!

But unless we miraculously get a release while the Skywest pilots magicly vote in ALPA in the next few weeks, the scenario above WILL play out.

I voted to support the strike. At the time of the vote the company was still offering us sub SKW with 70 wage cuts. I would have gladly walked the picket line over that.

But now it's time for a gut check. For those of you ready to ride this down in flames, answer this. Do you believe in majority rules or that "this pilot group is too stupid to know what's good for them"? If you are planning to stay here, are you willing allow ALPA National use your career as a recruiting tool for SKW pilots? If you are NOT planning to stay here, why are you so eager to destroy the careers of others over an amount of money so small that it won't change your life anyway. (before you argue that if the amount is so small then why not get it.....remember you have to multiply that small amount by 1600)

IT'S NOT CAVING IN, IT'S KNOWING WHEN TO WALK AWAY FROM THE CRAPS TABLE WITH YOUR CURRENT WINNINGS!!!! Remember every Gambler knows that if you stay at the table "long enough".....the house always wins.

Excellent post.

I'll second the part about those wanting to "burn this place down." Just leave. Don't screw up my job and my livilihood for your own twisted reasons.

 

[John Pennekamp]

In other words, you don't have any ideas. Thought so.

PCL, what part of piss off and mind your own business confused you?

The ASA pilots know who their choices are. There are many pilots who could do better, including past candidates, past reps, and even vocal members. I am not mentioning names here.

This scenario is of no concern to you. Go bitch about MSA's -900s or how much your commute from ATL to DTW sucks or something.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am the true silent majority at ASA. I trust my MEC much farther than I trust management. Our management has shown time and time again that they are untrustworthy. Our company can afford to give us cost of living raises just like every other company in America. Skywest Inc. boasts to thier shareholders and analysts how much money they are making, yet they cry poor to us. You can't have it both ways fellas.

I agree 100% that they can afford it. That's not the problem. Being the bean counting modern management they are, they don't want to pay us and we have no power to make them. Tell us how to proceed in light of this!

The only weapon Skywest holdings has is aircraft transfers to Skywest airlines. They have allready shown that they are more than willing to take ASA airplanes and orders and give them to Skywest airlines. Therefore, I will not settle for any contract that does not include scope which protects the ASA pilots. If I am going to lose my job anyway why wouldn't I strike to protect my job?

Tell us what kind of scope is bulletproof. And how we'll attain it since the MEC has said publicly "all the money currently on the table can't buy scope".

You have a middle choice between lose your job and quit your job. You can lower your expectations for THIS contract, save your job, then hit them hard in three years after the dust settles. This next three years will be wild what with all the mainlines coming our of bk and old RJs being traded in. It will be a different industry in three years.

For those who believe that if we settle for a mediocre contract with no scope that Skywest holdings management will have mercy on us, and give us a bunch of airplanes so everybody can upgrade or move up, you are mistaken. given a choice they will give any growth (and our current airplanes) to their non-union segment which has no say about work rules or pay.

Is that a matter of personal opinion? Ok, I'll counter your opinion with mine. My opinion is that Jerry ("Skywest holdings management") only wants to make money, not punish a bunch of union pilots. He'll put his resources where he can make the most money.

They have allready done it, why wouldn't they continue. For those of you who say it is too expensive, I say bullcrap. We have received airplanes from Comair with no problems and they are a competely seperate company.

We agree they will transfer aircraft if we don't act. That's good. The difference is how. The last I heard it cost about $110,000 to directly transfer each -700 SKW got. That's why they stopped. The next transfers will be trading in -200s at ASA for -900s at SKW, which costs nothing.

I am the silent majority at ASA. Everybody I fly with or interact with in the crew lounge seems to feel the same way, and I am not a very loud or boisterous individual. We are tired of all of the crap, but we are smart enough to see where most of it is coming from, and are not willing to give in due to weariness.

Tell us how many people you have discussed this with, in person, face to face, and how many agree with you. Pilots tend to keep within the same circles, so it's no surprise that you and all of your friends would agree.

ASA MEC you have my support!

That's good. But a wise person knows not to give any leaders unconditional support. There must be checks and balances... right now we have none.

 

[John Pennekamp]

He won't be there. We don't let management attend. And Oh by the way, he has a family commitment that day.

You must be the only person here who doesn't know who Oh Please is. He announced it on the Alpa web board some time ago. He's not in management at all. Not even an IP.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, what part of piss off and mind your own business confused you?

If you don't want people from outside ASA to be involved in your conversation, then take your conversation to the ASA ALPA web boards. If you discuss it on flightinfo, then it's fair game. What affects ASA affects the entire industry. It's not just "your business." If you screw up, then everyone in the industry suffers. I don't want my friends that are still at Pinnacle to get screwed on their contract negotiations because you didn't have the stomach for a fight.

Go bitch about MSA's -900s or how much your commute from ATL to DTW sucks or something.

Not commuting to DTW anymore, but thanks for your concern.

 

[John Pennekamp]

If you don't want people from outside ASA to be involved in your conversation, then take your conversation to the ASA ALPA web boards. If you discuss it on flightinfo, then it's fair game. What affects ASA affects the entire industry. It's not just "your business." If you screw up, then everyone in the industry suffers. I don't want my friends that are still at Pinnacle to get screwed on their contract negotiations because you didn't have the stomach for a fight.

The whole issue may be of your business, but naming names of possible MEC replacements is not. And I refrained from posting names (as you requested) for that very reason. Your response was to challenge me by saying I didn't have any. Such was the genesis of my comments.

And we all know the ALPA board is useless since everyone is afraid to post their true feelings. Anyone who speaks against the party line will quickly be jumped both online and in the crew lounge by the Alpaistas, and told they are too much like JB and need to shape up or face public humiliation. Kind of like ASARJman and Speedtape have proven. That's why they try to "out" anyone who speaks against the MEC.

 

[PCL_128]

The whole issue may be of your business, but naming names of possible MEC replacements is not. And I refrained from posting names (as you requested) for that very reason. Your response was to challenge me by saying I didn't have any. Such was the genesis of my comments.

I don't want you to actually name names on a public board. I just wanted to make sure that you had some names in mind. Too often I see pilots advocating the recall of reps without having the slightest clue who they will replace them with. I'm glad you've got ideas, I just hope they don't include the LJ coalition. As disappointed as you are with the current group, you still have to recognize that the "90-day plan" was a joke.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't want you to actually name names on a public board. I just wanted to make sure that you had some names in mind. Too often I see pilots advocating the recall of reps without having the slightest clue who they will replace them with. I'm glad you've got ideas, I just hope they don't include the LJ coalition. As disappointed as you are with the current group, you still have to recognize that the "90-day plan" was a joke.

I would hope that since you're a BOD member and "know how it works", you could read enough into my past statements to know that I know how the process works too.

And no, I would not endorse JB or LJ, but possibly others in their coalition. I would even support to keep DU in, since he seems to be the only one who's still reasonable.

I agree that the 90 day deadline was ludicrous, and is the #1 reason they didn't get my vote. Besides that the two are poison pills to anything they become involved in because of their reputation for hating ALPA (whether it's deserved or not).

 

[ASARJMan]

And we all know the ALPA board is useless since everyone is afraid to post their true feelings. Anyone who speaks against the party line will quickly be jumped both online and in the crew lounge by the Alpaistas, and told they are too much like JB and need to shape up or face public humiliation. Kind of like ASARJman and Speedtape have proven. That's why they try to "out" anyone who speaks against the MEC.

You are getting paranoid aren't you? Anyone can post what they want on the ALPA board. So what if someone else argues with them, whether on the board or in person. Any member can speak their thoughts. You're making way too much out of ALPA's "power".

 

[~~~^~~~]

The last I heard it cost about $110,000 to directly transfer each -700 SKW got. That's why they stopped. The next transfers will be trading in -200s at ASA for -900s at SKW, which costs nothing.

FWIW in the investor's conference call they said the price was around a million per aircraft to transfer. They did not explain how they arrived at that amount.

You are correct that taking the ASA orders costs almost nothing.

By the way, if it is true that a CRJ CA costs $30,000 to train, then we are spending a little more than million a month to keep up with attrition. I get the feeling June will be a big month, so will July. Our pilots are getting hired everywhere and airlines like CAL and SouthWest actually speed up new hire training in the winter. FedEx will start hiring if nobody bids Paris, or China.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You are getting paranoid aren't you? Anyone can post what they want on the ALPA board. So what if someone else argues with them, whether on the board or in person. Any member can speak their thoughts. You're making way too much out of ALPA's "power".

You're not even worth responding to. If you ask me, you're the one who's paranoid since you seem to "need" to know the identity of everyone who speaks against your beliefs.

Let me ask you this... aside from shooting your mouth off online what have you ACTUALLY done to move the process forward? How have YOU supported your MEC? Shooting your mouth off and paying dues isn't enough.

 

[ASARJMan]

Not a whole lot I, nor anyone, can do right now to move the process forward. The RLA greatly favors management as you know. You do know that don't you? I fully support the MEC/CNC and do things by the book out on the line. I counter ignorant rants like yours on message boards. And, I like messing with paranoid dudes like yourself. What have you done btw?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Not a whole lot I, nor anyone, can do right now to move the process forward. The RLA greatly favors management as you know. You do know that don't you? I fully support the MEC/CNC and do things by the book out on the line. I counter ignorant rants like yours on message boards. And, I like messing with paranoid dudes like yourself. What have you done btw?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid

Paranoia is a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat. In the original Greek, παράνοια (paranoia) simply means madness (para = outside; nous = mind) and, historically, this charcaterization was used to describe any delusional state.

Paranoia is distinct from phobia, which is more descriptive of an irrational and persistent fear, usually unfounded, of certain situations, objects, animals, activities, or social settings. By contrast, a person suffering paranoia or paranoid delusions tends more to blame or fear others for supposedly intentional actions that somehow affect the afflicted individual.

The idea that my so-called "rants" are delusional, paranoid, or ignorant is a matter of your personal opinion. I would opine the same of yours.

Since you keep trying to pin me down as WF (and the joke's still on you with that, btw) you clearly have a strong distaste for WF. It may be worthwhile to discuss why. He has done 10X more for this pilot group in 5 years than you have done in 10+, so I fail to understand why you keep trying to tear him down. Or me for that matter. Why do we scare you so much?

If our opinions are irrelevant, then you wouldn't even bother to argue. You argue because you know pilots are listening to what we say. You appear to have persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat, that threat being that a former ALPA rep may actually have the power to rally a revolt against your boys and turn things around.

You seem to be following the textbook definition of paranoid, fwiw.