NJVote 73%Yes 5%No 21% NoVote

[FamilyGuy]

Who's slamming the workers in the casino? Sounds like flame bait to me. The funny thing is this management team will be gone in a year. Just like the other four management teams before them. Our union will be here for a looooong time. We are looking out for our friends in Fort Fumble. I have been here a long time I don't want to see my friends in CMH lose their jobs when Shamtulli decides to change management again. What happens everytime when new management comes in? Everyone in CMH gets their departments turned upside down. Don't put all your stock and trust in Bridgeway Bob and "Moisture" they will be gone one day soon.

Dude - no one in CMH is losing their jobs. Yes, I too have seen several management teams come and go since I started here, but that is a fact of life at any company in the US these days. I have not seen any of the CMH employees lose their jobs because the managers changed.

Everyone should know by now that change is a fact of life. Things go much easier in life if you accept that fact and make the best of your situation rather than trying to fight change.

 

[Some Dude]

I another stupid post by Family Guy. Do you really think it's good that management is changed here every two years? The only ones that show any loyality is the workers. Shamtulli is the worst people manager I have ever seen. Bridgeway Bob and you are a joke to this company. Personally I could think of a lot of job cuts in CMH. Keep drinking the cool aid that everything is great. I have the owners tell me everyday how service is terrible yet they love the crews. I keep getting 100% satisfaction rating from the owners as do all the other crews. Why doesn't owner services rate as high as the crews?

 

[Lord Wakefield]

The majority of votes not counted were due to bad addresses generated from the list passed on by the old 284 leadership and Local. Thanks to them again for taking care of us... schmucks. 1108 knows that around 1750 addresses are good and verified. About that many votes came back with a 93% vote in favor of shutting this pig off. I would bet that if the other 400 pilots were polled that the 93% number would rise to around 95% easily.

I think it's very likely that, if the 400 were successfully polled, the results would come back with a similar ratio. For Troll to imply that these are No Votes is stretching it. Of the people I know who didn't vote, all are on their way out as they've seen enough already. You can't run a company with employees who quit any more than you can with them on strike.

 

[CMHTroll]

I think it's very likely that, if the 400 were successfully polled, the results would come back with a similar ratio. For Troll to imply that these are No Votes is stretching it. Of the people I know who didn't vote, all are on their way out as they've seen enough already. You can't run a company with employees who quit any more than you can with them on strike.

You can speculate all you want but the fact is that they didn’t vote. And the normal rule in statistical analysis is you would count them no. It is amazing after all the ho-ha-ha from the “Strong Union” about how they were going to fix things; they couldn’t even get all their members to vote. You guys crack me up. You want it both ways. But I guess the Union MEC are just good politicians at heart. It is a good thing they took this strike vote now before their election, because they are going to have a hard time getting elected when they get the members put in recess for their political bargaining. I hope you guys get your leadership to smarten up and get it!

You can run a company without Union employees and with employees on strike. It is just a different company. There are many who would like to see you locked out and change the business.

 

[Hogprint]

Starman said:

The database used by Teamsters International to conduct the strike vote was the one passed by 284 to them. Our new local could only direct pilots to contact our business agent to get a replacement ballot if they didn't get one. The MEC and Local 1108 were not in charge of this election - the International was.

The results would not have changed in the end result. For every 100 new votes we would have collected, at least 93 would have authorized a strike.

The continual harping on this board by the management zombies about a lack of solidarity is becoming laughable. The pilots are united and management had better start negotiating in good faith or face even more problems.

CMHtroll, since you obviously did not read this I bumped it for you.



82/89/93

 

[Some Dude]

Troll is such a tool. Use some KY jelly before you insert all the company BS. It might relax you a little.

 

[Diesel]

Dude guys figure it out. CMHtroll is just that. He's nothing more than somebody upstairs posting stuff. To say he's just a screen reader is actually below him. I'm sure he's more than that.

Let's look at some of the stuff he's posted that only a manager would know.

Intamate details of J's arbitration hearing
Voting counts and posting on flightinfo.com quicker than anyone else.
Crew policys and his own spin on how they got to that point.

I believe CMHtroll is truely some sh!tdick in mangament. He's got to get on here and spout the company spin but when it all comes down to it he has no say. He can't do anything about how i vote or the rest of you vote. He is the captain of a rudderless ship and hasn't accepted the fact he has no controll.

So he gets on flightinfo.com and spouts his company line and thinks he's turning the screws into the workforce. I'm sure one of his buddies gave him access to our union board so he reads that too.

In the end he's just a guy sitting on the sidelines that has no control over the game.

By the way i'm the guy banging the cheerleader.

 

[gunfyter]

Breaking news

I found the money. We can finish the contract now.

One owner this week ... Speaking about whoever he deals with back at the death star... "They don't get it. I don't care what it costs. I just want to get there fast."

translation... raise management fees and pay the pilots.

we now return to your normal programming.

 

[NJAowner]

Gunfyter has a point

Gunfyter - you are along the lines of what I have been saying here for 3 years. The owners have the ultimate power in this games. You need to appeal to the owners to get what you want. P!ss them off (including a strike) and the tide changes.

In a simple phrase --- so go the owners so goes the company. If owners walk, the company loses, and if the company loses the pilots lose.

The pilot group vastly underestimates the power of the owners. If we give CMH the blessing to increase fees and in return get better performance from pilots (not safety but that "extra effort", you can get what you want. Irritate the owners (who toer than Hollywood types are overwhelmingly anti-union), and a tsunami will rise against the pilots.

This is common sense.

Fly safe/

 

[Some Dude]

NJA owner what you don't understand is that the company told most owners and the pilots themselves that the reason they raised the management fees years ago is to give the pilots a raise. We haven't seen a dime. They lied to the owners and to the pilots.

Second point we have a union like it or not. A strike is possible not just from the pilots but from the mechanics or flight attendants. So, if a unionized group at NJA would strike then the pilots would honor that strike and not fly. So the owners do get screwed in the end.
You should have done your research and learned that a strike could be possible at NJA before you bought into the program. If the company fails than too bad. Leason learned. I'm not afraid of this company failing. Businesses fail all the time. I'll move on and so will the owners.

I don't have to worry about making the owners mad. The company does that everyday. I try my best to do the best job possible, but I won't be going out of my way to fix any problems I see coming down the line. I won't be fixing any problems that NJA creates. I fixed the problems for years. Shamtulli and this management team are like children. I will let them make the mistakes and see if they ever learn how to fix them.

 

[Just Peachy]

ckt bkr blown

You can speculate all you want but the fact is that they didn’t vote. And the normal rule in statistical analysis is you would count them no.


The above is absolutely crap... the normal statistical analysis would project the unaccounted votes on the same ratio as the main counting ... 93% for, and 7% against......... what a piece of work U R.

Good thing your not a pilot, your logic would get the crew killed..

 

[CRAWDADDY]

You can speculate all you want but the fact is that they didn’t vote. And the normal rule in statistical analysis is you would count them no.

Go ahead and just TRY to count me as a NO VOTE. Thanks to 284, I never got a ballot.
Put down the KoolAide, fool

 

[DO-82 driver]

NJAOwner,

We all realize the owner is the line pilots' friend. You have been lied to as much as we have. It was stated not to long ago that if it wasn't for the Marquis program NJ might be in a situation where we would have to possibly lay pepople off.

That make me think how loyal is the Company to their Owners? That question was skirted when asked.

Right now, our demand has exceeded our abilty to supply....and this is the slow period. The Holidays are just around the corner.

 

[gunfyter]

Gunfyter - you are along the lines of what I have been saying here for 3 years. The owners have the ultimate power in this games. You need to appeal to the owners to get what you want. P!ss them off (including a strike) and the tide changes.

<...zip...>

This is common sense.

Well we just have to make sense out of this.

When I fly someone out to Montana from TEB to spend some time at their 90,000 acre ranch... I have to think the money is there. At $500 an acre that would be $45 Million for a place to go fishing. What's the property tax on a 90,000 acre ranch?

Now we are told the company does not collect enough monies to pay us NBAA standard pay.

Common sense says anyone who can afford to fly a X to Montana from NY to go fishing on their 90,000 acre ranch can afford NBAA pilot salaries. Especially when they are only paying a portion because they share ownership in the jet.

Right now my 7th year Citation X PIC pay is less than what the people who ride the Bus to work in Columbus Ohio (Because they can't afford an automobile) are able to pay a 5th year bus driver working for the Columbus Ohio Transportation Authority ... COTA. www.COTA.com

HS Dip. or GED. Have a Steady work history. No history of moving violations.Responsible for operating a Motor Coach in a safe, on-time manner

Common Sense.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I thought this new group was stellar....if that's true, then why cant they handle something as mundane as updating a mailing list when they had 9 months to do it?

Well, let's see. What was on the to do list...

Separate from Local 284.
Form new Local 1108.
Learn how to run Local 1108.
Start several volunteer programs and run said programs.
Start to actually enforce existing CBA.
Represent pilots brought in for bogus reasons.
etc, etc, etc.

Yeah. I can see where it might have been a bit of a busy 9 months of gestation for this baby. I bet the address list is one of the items to be corrected but like many other problems a faulty contact list was just another one inherited by the Fab 5 and Local 284. It takes a while to fill in potholes.

Sounds to me like its new group, same problems....

New group. Same problems. WAAAAY better solutions that take time to fully implement.

If management offered up that explanation for a similar problem you'd be all over them screaming incompetence.....

When management opens their mouths it is a lie. Oh but according to Worth W. B., "It isn't lying if there was no intent". THere would be no screaming. We would simply say, "See... liars".

 

[FLYLOW22]

NJAowner - your observations are right on. Unfortunately the nature of negotiations in aviation seem to always come down to this game of chicken.

Not true. Short sighted management teams bent on short term gains and long term losses "play chicken" or rather back employee groups into a corner with threats and surface bargaining rather than engaging in thought provoking, meaningful, progressive bargaining. (But who cares. They won't be here to worry about it once the golden parachute is deployed).

NetJets management is so short sighted when it comes to employee relations. It is sad. Enron with wings.

In the end though, I think unionized employees have more to lose in the game. Their livelihood is tied to a seniority number. If the company fails or they leave then they have to start all over again at the bottom of the ladder.

That's just it. This isn't a game to us. This is whether or not some of us can get off of food stamps. This is where we live, what we drive, where our kids go to school, quality of life we have. That's pretty importsant stuff dude. No games here.

Many of us could care less about a seniority number lost that isn't worth anything today anyway. NJA needs to make those seniority numbers worth something this time with CASH so that they can use that lame threat next time. Cart before the horse boys.

This isn't that great of a job right now. Help us make it one so you can use that threat next time. You were all skipping ahead too many chapters in Ichan's playbook.

In the today's economy managers and non-union employees move around regularly and are not penalized like union employees when they move.

Oh. Where do you have your resumes out too right now?

So while you see a lot of bravado on this board, take it with a grain of salt. None of the pilots, even the most ardent union supporters, relishes the thought of starting out at the bottom of the seniority list again.

It isn't the loss of artificially over-valued NJA seniority that your be a drag. It's all the damned groundschool training involved with another intitial when starting at a new company. The chairs are uncomfortable.

"Welcome to Brand X..."

 

[CMHTroll]

Reality Check!

Not true. Short sighted management teams bent on short term gains and long term losses "play chicken" or rather back employee groups into a corner with threats and surface bargaining rather than engaging in thought provoking, meaningful, progressive bargaining. (But who cares. They won't be here to worry about it once the golden parachute is deployed).

Management isn't the side that got us put in Abeyance.

NetJets management is so short sighted when it comes to employee relations. It is sad. Enron with wings.

It is obvious that your lack of understanding of employee relations, profit and loss make your statement a joke.

That's just it. This isn't a game to us. This is whether or not some of us can get off of food stamps. This is where we live, what we drive, where our kids go to school, quality of life we have. That's pretty importsant stuff dude. No games here.

No games on the non-union side. Games on the Union side, go slow and pi$$ off the customers.

Many of us could care less about a seniority number lost that isn't worth anything today anyway. NJA needs to make those seniority numbers worth something this time with CASH so that they can use that lame threat next time. Cart before the horse boys.

The door is always open for you to leave. You have no chance for advancement except seniority because you are in a Union. That is your loss.

This isn't that great of a job right now. Help us make it one so you can use that threat next time. You were all skipping ahead too many chapters in Ichan's playbook.

The Job is what you make it and it is obvious you don't want it to be a good one. Your actions speack volumes. Why don't you have your Mec bargain in good faith and get out of abeyance?

 

[Diesel]

You keep coming back to this barganing in "bad faith" but you don't look at your own group. You think we should just bend over and take it like you? I don't think so. I have bent over and over and over for this company day in and day out to help out the owners. I see problems coming down the road and i jump in the way to stop them so the owners don't get screwed. Guess what happens. I get told just fly the plane, or don't say xyz to the owner. Screw that I'm totally upfront with the owners I fly. If it's my screwup it's my screwup. I don't cover for the company period. These are smart FRIGGIN people we fly. They know BS when they see it.

CMHtroll comes on here and just keeps spouting the same thing. Does he really know what our job entails probably not. Does he know that we have pilots on leave due to blown out backs from lifting bags? Probably doesn't even know we load bags.

I don't need to explain what I do on my job. That's why i'm the captain and responsible for EVERYTHING involved in my flight. Myself and my partner make an informed decision and if I have that "bad feeling" I take the heat and don't go. I've lost too many friends in this job.

SO the next time you want to run your mouth and say we are "slowing down" or dragging stuff out on the line I say Go F yourself. Rushing is what killed a close friend of mine. I get paid to make sure the plane gets from A to B and sometimes throw in a Z safely.

CMHtroll you don't fly the line, you have no idea what we do. Go F yourself by saying i'm slowing down or my fellow pilots are trying to F the owners. You come on here and spout crap with nothing to back it up.

Oh and if anybody wants his Extension number PM me.

 

[hydrarkt]

CMHTroll is a troll

I have it on good authority that CMHTroll is a company paid propoganda "spinner." Part of his job is to post misinformation to try to stir the pot.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Not true. Short sighted management teams bent on short term gains and long term losses "play chicken" or rather back employee groups into a corner with threats and surface bargaining rather than engaging in thought provoking, meaningful, progressive bargaining. (But who cares. They won't be here to worry about it once the golden parachute is deployed).

NetJets management is so short sighted when it comes to employee relations. It is sad. Enron with wings.

Surface bargaining? From what I understand, the new MEC and the Company have agreed on all articles except pay and scope. That's a lot of articles to agree on in just 9 months...especially since everyone had to start over once the pilots elected new leadership.

Threats? I dont see management on these boards saying STMFD. I dont see management on these boards mocking the union leadership with deliberate mangling of their names. I see management taking the high road and always telling everyone in the company that the vast majority of pilots are excellent and continue to deliver high quality service. I do not see the company publicly airing the actions of the malcontents, even though it would no doubt incense the owners to know the details of some of the games being played at their expense.

Short sighted on employee relations? None of the other 4 companies under the NJ umbrella seem to have these employee relation problems....seems its limited to the union groups. I wonder why? Maybe you should consider dealing with Santulli without a union to muck things up and see how things go.

That's just it. This isn't a game to us. This is whether or not some of us can get off of food stamps. This is where we live, what we drive, where our kids go to school, quality of life we have. That's pretty importsant stuff dude. No games here.

Its already been posted by one of your fellow pilots (boasting is a more accurate description) that 98% of the pilots are getting PIC pay now due to the coordinated actions to deliberately circumvent the spirit of the contract. In addition, union officials were quoted in the Columbus Dispatch saying that the pilots average between $50,000 and $72,000. This doesnt sound like a food stamp issue.

Everyone wants more money. I do, you do, its pretty much universal. The important point to remember is that the company has a proposal on the table that makes the pilots the highest paid in the fractional industry. Again...doesnt sound like a food stamp issue.

Oh. Where do you have your resumes out too right now?

Nowhere. In fact, I havent even looked at my resume since I was hired here. Executive Jet/NetJets has been very good to me and I have no reason to look anywhere else.

 

[Diesel]

Familyguy

Who really cares about YOU?

Last time i checked you didn't make the plane go. We do. Elitist Yup but we've trained, and worked hard to get to the position we are at.

You don't have a leg or a say in this fight. So you're just making yourself feel important.

Sad truth is nobody cares.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Well, let's see. What was on the to do list...

Separate from Local 284.
Form new Local 1108.
Learn how to run Local 1108.
Start several volunteer programs and run said programs.
Start to actually enforce existing CBA.
Represent pilots brought in for bogus reasons.
etc, etc, etc.

Yeah. I can see where it might have been a bit of a busy 9 months of gestation for this baby. I bet the address list is one of the items to be corrected but like many other problems a faulty contact list was just another one inherited by the Fab 5 and Local 284. It takes a while to fill in potholes.

New group. Same problems. WAAAAY better solutions that take time to fully implement.

I see the union spinmeisters are out in force to try and explain why 400 of their own didnt participate in the recent strike vote.

you guys are trying hard but there is still something that doesnt ring true in the latest 'explanation'....

if its the old contact list from local 284 that's to blame for the 'no votes' then why was everyone able to vote in the election for a new MEC?

Everyone was able to cast a vote in the election of a new MEC, yet something happened to the list in the intervening 9 months?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Familyguy

Who really cares about YOU?

Last time i checked you didn't make the plane go. We do. Elitist Yup but we've trained, and worked hard to get to the position we are at.

You don't have a leg or a say in this fight. So you're just making yourself feel important.

Sad truth is nobody cares.

Diesel - if you didnt care you wouldnt respond.

Truth is that you get frustrated when I expose the flaws in the arguments on this board.

As I said over a month ago, you should be grateful....I'm giving you free critiques of your negotiation positions....

 

[Hogprint]

FG said:

I see management taking the high road and always telling everyone in the company that the vast majority of pilots are excellent and continue to deliver high quality service. I do not see the company publicly airing the actions of the malcontents, even though it would no doubt incense the owners to know the details of some of the games being played at their expense.

I see management taking the low road every week.

* Tried to have two brothers fired for allegedly sleeping (plenty more to this story you wont hear from the High Roaders)

* crews needlessly being called into CMH for, horror of horrors, delaying a flight at 0400 because they didn't have food, water or brief sheets. Could have been cleared up with a phone call, but instead $1200 in airline tickets later, two work days wasted, plus whatever it cost to get another crew to the plane.

* after crew confirmed with the Death Star that one airport did not have fuel and diverted to another so mission could be completed, Death Star bozos tried to turn around and hang crew out to dry on the issue. Luckily cooler heads prevailed (ACP was old military buddy), and crew did not do the CMH 1 approach

I could go on and I'm sure every pilot here has some good war stories about the High Roaders beating this pilot group like a rented mule.

Can someone give me specific examples of "games being played at owners expense"? Just one good specific example would do.

 

[El Chupacabra]

why don't the non union pukes that don't like working with union flight crews quit and work somewhere else? Union pilots built this company before you got here...

 

[hydrarkt]

Everyone wants more money. I do, you do, its pretty much universal.

Difference between you and us is that most of us could do any of those management jobs. Many of us have. Hardly any of the casino personnel can do our job. You're easily and cheaply replaced. We are not.

 

[Some Dude]

Family Guy....... please the guy doesn't even have the balls to say what department he works in. He wants us to listen to him. He's like background noise. Nobody really listens or cares. He should come out of the closet.

 

[Heavy Set]

Diesel - if you didnt care you wouldnt respond.

Truth is that you get frustrated when I expose the flaws in the arguments on this board.

As I said over a month ago, you should be grateful....I'm giving you free critiques of your negotiation positions....

Dude, NJA pilots are paid far less than their counterparts in the corporate world (same aircraft types) and yet they fly A LOT more on average. Can you refute that?

Schedule or no-schedule, NJA pilots are basically the primary interfaces with your customers. Surprising (or not) that you would treat your "front line" employees with such acrimony when their service is SO CRITICAL to your customer-service ethic... It doesn't make a lot of sense and it is extremely short-sighted. Do you find this level of acrimony between SWA management and pilots? Nope.

It's clear that NJA management has squandered a lot of its cash on inefficiency and cross-subsidization of other divisions (Netjets Europe, NJME, etc.). It's time to INVEST in your pilot group in order to bolster morale and actually improve customer service.

Otherwise, you'll find Flight Safety doing really well financially as many, many NJA newhires are trained in the coming months to cover for attrition (if the strike doesn't happen - although we all know that it will). Well, at least Warren will be happy with Flight Safety's results...

 

[FamilyGuy]

Dude, NJA pilots are paid far less than their counterparts in the corporate world (same aircraft types) and yet they fly A LOT more on average. Can you refute that?

Heavy - no, I cant refute that. But we all know, and its been beat to death on this board, that there are clear, fundamental differences between the corporate jobs and fractional. Staffing ratios for one, schedules for another....

The same logic that says you shouldnt compare us to the airlines says that you shouldnt compare us to the corporate world. The real question is how will this contract compare against the other fractionals?

Schedule or no-schedule, NJA pilots are basically the primary interfaces with your customers. Surprising (or not) that you would treat your "front line" employees with such acrimony when their service is SO CRITICAL to your customer-service ethic... It doesn't make a lot of sense and it is extremely short-sighted. Do you find this level of acrimony between SWA management and pilots? Nope.

Heavy - you're correct - the pilots are the primary interface with the owners and their service & attitude is critical to the success of the product. I know many of our pilots and personally have a lot of respect for the job they do. 95% of our pilots are top-notch professionals and I support them in asking for an industry leading wage. (Fractional industry) Read my previous posts and you'll see that I've stated this numerous times.

What I do not agree with is the tactics that are being employed to try and achieve some of these goals. I find them heavy handed and malicious. While the fight for fair pay is respectable, it does not give the union, or pilots on this board, license to undermine the product the owners receive, slander Mr. Santulli or his duly appointed executives, and generally trash what is a very good company.

It's clear that NJA management has squandered a lot of its cash on inefficiency and cross-subsidization of other divisions (Netjets Europe, NJME, etc.). It's time to INVEST in your pilot group in order to bolster morale and actually improve customer service.

I will be the first to tell you that there is inefficiency and waste in the system. But guess what - there is waste and inefficiency in every company. I've worked at a fair number of companies over the years and I've seen waste everywhere. Dont think that any company out there is perfect.

To be fair, a good part of the waste that I see here is due in large part to the rapid growth of the company. Things that weren't worth focusing on 3 years ago are now so large that they need to be looked at and fixed. That's a good problem to have.

As for investing in NJE, I think a good company is always looking to expand into new markets. Do you want to be part of a company that isn't expanding? That's how you achieve financial stability and we all continue to get raises.

and again, I do agree that the company needs to invest in the pilots and pay them a fair wage. no argument there. But I dont think it should be to "bolster morale and actually improve customer service". It should given because its the right thing to do and the pilots deserve it. I do my job to the best of my abilities every day, regardless of whether I think I should be paid more. Pilots and all other employees should do the same if they are truly professionals.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I support them in asking for an industry leading wage. (Fractional industry)

​

Are fuel prices lower because the fuel goes into a fractional airplane?

​

Forget the Fractional Industry. We are the fractional Industry. If the fractional Industry can only survive by underpaying pilots compared with the rest of Business Aviation... let it die.


even H2 will support that statement.