NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 3

[CapnVegetto]

You know what capnvgetto the company told the negotiatiors that there was enough money to hold out a strike but not pay the pilots.

Hows that for an insult. They are willing to spend more to break the pilots than actually just pay them.

Oh well round and round we go.

I believe the technical term for that is

BULL$HIT.

And from what I'm reading, you're ready to call their bluff. Go for it and get what you deserve!

 

[String Chz]

That's what happens when an inflated EGO gets in the way of good business sense.

We have found the new "Lorenzo" of the Fractional industry.

A number of owners I flew this week are not pleased at all with the company for non-pilot related issues.

CS now offers the service we once did and many of the owners/card holders realize it.

We are slowly losing our title of "Sucking the Least".

We have lost sight of what this Company's orignal mission was. The problem with the pilots is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[h25b]

CaptVeg,

You are partially correct yet to a large point I disagree... Berkshire Hathaway/Netjets has no doubt came up with a sum that they are willing to pay to a new CBA. Now whether or not this figure has hit the bargaining table is out for debate, somehow I highly doubt it and the IBT probably won't see it until the last hour before a strike. READ ME AGAIN, this thing will not be settled until the pilots get released. The company will continue paying the crap wages until the last hour. Why wouldn't they ???

Which brings us to the other point. Having pre-determined the spending limit the company will use the time between now and the possible strike to formulate the plan "B". This will involve enormous sell-offs and bringing all hands on deck at NJI. The company will survive albeit in substantially smaller form and yes, it is reasonable to compare the situation to the NWA strike. This sends a loud message to the unions in the entire aviation industry that the standard playbook has ejected itself through the window and there's a new sheriff in town.

All of this "shut 'er down" BS is just the rantings of a vocal minority...

 

[Diesel]

h25b- I don't believe its the voice of a vocal minority. 93 percent of pilots voted to strike. I'm a believer that if we strike we have to be prepared never to come back to work here again. That way you prepared emotionally and financially.

I think that if you asked a couple of months ago you would be right about the small minority of pilots that are willing to shut it down. The problem is the company has pissed off the last remaining hold outs.

It's sad to see but i fear they have pushed the pendulum too far. I don't think it will swing back. It's too bad because there is no reason for it other than ego.

 

[CapnVegetto]

CaptVeg,

You are partially correct yet to a large point I disagree... Berkshire Hathaway/Netjets has no doubt came up with a sum that they are willing to pay to a new CBA. Now whether or not this figure has hit the bargaining table is out for debate, somehow I highly doubt it and the IBT probably won't see it until the last hour before a strike. READ ME AGAIN, this thing will not be settled until the pilots get released. The company will continue paying the crap wages until the last hour. Why wouldn't they ???

Which brings us to the other point. Having pre-determined the spending limit the company will use the time between now and the possible strike to formulate the plan "B". This will involve enormous sell-offs and bringing all hands on deck at NJI. The company will survive albeit in substantially smaller form and yes, it is reasonable to compare the situation to the NWA strike. This sends a loud message to the unions in the entire aviation industry that the standard playbook has ejected itself through the window and there's a new sheriff in town.

I agree with you bigtime on the one main point that NOTHING is going to get settled until the pilots get released.

But I disagree with you on the company getting through it all roses. Transferring to NJI and selloffs? I work for a charter company that flies selloffs now. We do enough as it is......there are only so many that everyone can do. We all have regular customers and owners too, besides NJA. Not to mention the fact that they already use Gulfstreams for trips now, they're going to transfer 2200 pilots' worth of trips to selloffs and NJI and get everything done? No way. What a logistical nightmare, not to mention the cost involved!! I just don't see it happening.

My guess is that management is going to drag this out as long as they possibly can, and then when the pilots finally get released then POOF! The money is going to magically appear and they will all of a sudden be ready to make a deal.

 

[h25b]

I agree with you bigtime on the one main point that NOTHING is going to get settled until the pilots get released.

But I disagree with you on the company getting through it all roses.

I never said they'd get through it all roses... I'm just saying that they no doubt have a figure that they feel they can pay and sustain the business model. Above that and they will put the pilots on the street and go on with life by whatever means necessary.

Diesel,

I understand what you're saying but voting to strike is a bit different than willing to see the company and all hopes of ever working there again disappear.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I never said they'd get through it all roses... I'm just saying that they no doubt have a figure that they feel they can pay and sustain the business model. Above that and they will put the pilots on the street and go on with life by whatever means necessary.

I don't think they can, and I think they know they can't. They're just dragging it out and getting low wages out of 'em as long as they can. I don't think NJA will ever strike, just because management can't possibly be that stupid. I have to disagree.....I just don't see how they can make money with a strike, or even survive (see my earlier points). Are they willing to sacrifice the company to serve their ego? Surely nobody is that stupid.

But then again, Lorenzo was.

 

[h25b]

Surely nobody is that stupid.

But then again, Lorenzo was.

You said it, never under estimate the resolve of those driven by their ego instead of their brain...

 

[flyjetspeed]

Does the Pilot’s know the Union agreed in writing to allow NJI to operate separately?

“BM” also believes that all the pilots at NJI would come here and be in a Union. Not from what I have read by some of the “Prima Donnas” on other message boards. He also seems to think that their seniority is greater than those here now! Mr. “BM” you need to look at a seniority list and go back and do the math. Could there be a deal with the “Union”, very possibly, would it be one sided, NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Do the pilots know there is no threat to them from NJI?

What about some future “Gulfstream”? What about doing “International Shuttles”, anything for us in that? Do the pilots, the “Union” recognize the threat, bet your ass Santulli they do, make no mistake! They also recognize the threat of the impending FLOPS deal, the loss of the BBJs, the formation of Scheduled operations by EJM, and the hundred other ways to funnel money to other “divisions” of NJ, Inc., and Berkshire Hathaway. In case you didn’t see it yet “BM”, the number one issue has changes from the surveys of January to the one just completed, SCOPE is now number one on the list! I think they get it!

Did the “Union” tell the pilots that we would drop the salary demands in they came?

Why yes “BM” we did, go back and read my post again, I know you have it. “10 to 12” percent lower with the Gulfstreams. Did you also read the part about just how many millions that equates to each year that Woodbridge is willing to spend for his EGO? That is 20 plus million to keep them separate, plus the costs of double management, per year. Pretty big EGO don’t you think! And for sake of clarity, it was YOUR SIDE that decided not to bring them here, so back to the cost factors of our offer. You and Santulli may have forgotten that 12 percent of our proposal is a cost for NJI, not NJA. NJI is deciding to have that extra $20 MILLION a year be charged to them. We do not claim that cost at all, that expense is one that is made out of the EGO of the CEO and has nothing to do with us. Please remember to take those annual costs out from now on, can you? And “BM”, does the other employees of NJA know that this waste in double management is being spent by NJI but being paid for by NJA? Get an idea about that “Forensic Audit” we offered. Based on the rejection by the Company, I think you do!

END

Is there any question that the ITB 1108 intends to destroy NJI as it exists today? Or sell it for an extra 12% in pay for it's membership?


"They also recognize the threat of the impending FLOPS deal, "

What FLOPS deal? Is there a merge/sale pending? This is getting just plain weird guys.

 

[Redmeat]

Are they willing to sacrifice the company to serve their ego? Surely nobody is that stupid.

But then again, Lorenzo was.

See, the thing about CEO's is this: It is all about THEM. You think pilots have egos? We aint sh1t compared to these guys in that department. They do not dwell on loyalty or camaraderie or "right" and "wrong" like you and I. They WILL sacrifice a company knowing full well that they can take their Harvard law degree anywhere they so choose after the dust clears. And they will sleep like baby the night after.

 

[CapnVegetto]

See, the thing about CEO's is this: It is all about THEM. You think pilots have egos? We aint sh1t compared to these guys in that department. They do not dwell on loyalty or camaraderie or "right" and "wrong" like you and I. They WILL sacrifice a company knowing full well that they can take their Harvard law degree anywhere they so choose after the dust clears. And they will sleep like baby the night after.

I agree. 100%. Most are scum....period. I'd be willing to bet that everyone that has the power to do something about this situation has a golden parachute so thick that they'd never hit the ground. Do they give a crap if the company goes out of business? Heck no, they're rich. They'll never have to work another day in their life.

There oughta be some kind of law against it.

 

[flyjetspeed]

I have to agree with the ego part as it applies to CEO's. I have been on first name basis, as a pilot, with 8 of them in my lifetime and to a man they were all disconnected from the company they ran in some way. It may not be possible to run a company the same as when it was started ,once it reaches a certain size. Crossing the Chasm has been referenced here and has many lessons for NJ et. al., as it appears we are at that Chasm. As a cautionary note to the union leadership, do not underestimate the impact that "face" has in these events. Everyone at the table is concerned with "face" and will preserve it at almost all costs. This is true of the players on both sides of the table. The trick is to reach an agreement while preseving "face" for the pertinant parties involved.

 

[TheTruthCMH]

The trick is to reach an agreement while preseving "face" for the pertinant parties involved.

"And the TRUTH, shall set you free!"

The Truth Hurts

TTC

 

[Diesel]

dude the truth hurts thing is pretty annoying

 

[TheTruthCMH]

dude the truth hurts thing is pretty annoying

Gosh, you mean like STFD?

The Truth Hurts Diesel

TTC

 

[Ultra Grump]

They are willing to spend more to break the pilots than actually just pay them.

Someone in NJA management must must have really liked how that went over at Comair, when the contract improvements the pilots wanted cost something like $400 million (maybe a Comair guy can help with the exact figures), but Comair/Delta management preferred to lose $760 million during the strike over paying the pilots.

Real smart.


To all the "company men" here:

You all seem to be under the impression that both offers (union and company) were the "last, best, and final" offers. They most assuredly were not. The problem lies in the fact that when the company negotiators came back to the table last Monday with essentially no movement from any previous offer, that meant there was no longer any "negotiating" happening.

According to Merriam-Webster dictionary - Negotiate: to arrange for or bring about through conference, discussion, and compromise.

There was conference and discussion, but no compromise. I am under no illusion that what the union offered is what we will end up with. But it surely will not be what the company offered, either. The problem lies in the company's unwillingness to make a reasonable, progressive offer. Had they responded with some movement, I'm sure we would have done the same. They didn't. They responded with a plan that was in many cases regressive from the failed TA. So we walked.

I will believe that the company truly believes an offer is fair and within their ability to pay when they say it's their "last, best, and final" offer. Then we will see what the pilot group thinks about it. Until then, we armchair QBs (and especially you, who have no vote and no say) are really all just wasting time.

I for one have wasted too much time here on this subject already. I will leave you all to it. We'll see how it shakes out.

 

[Publishers]

Can we get some kind of wager as to whether this subject and thread will ever end or will this still be debated a year from now.

 

[squonk]

Troll:

the Company put a good package on the table and will not put the Company at risk for unrealistic demands

The company's "package" is regresive in so many respects. Have you actually compared some of the percentile rates? I doubt it. Just spewing the company line.

I will be taking a pay cut if I accept this dog.

the Company would not put the future of the entire organization at risk. Every employee thanks them and supports their efforts to give the pilots a good raise.

Oh I disagree sir. The company is surely putting the organization at risk. Just look at the number of owners leaving in droves. Tell your leaders to right this ship.

The trainwreck may be coming but what you want to ask yourself is what direction is it headed? It is headed towared IBT1108.

.

Ha. You wish. Please tell us what trainwreck will befall 1108.

 

[squonk]

Troll:

Olsen’s goal is to unionize all fractionals and he can’t unless he brings in the hefty promises that he has made. If he can’t do that, his career as a Union Leader is limited. Any politician who does not fulfill his promise is a lame duck.

So what is his plan? To ruin the business. Kill it one piece at a time. Just like Eastern Airlines. Remember the song, “We got our pilots the highest paid salary in the industry, and they went bankrupt not long after.” This management has said that they will not put the business at risk, and committing to the level of labor concessions demanded by the Union would be fatal. I am sure that the majority of employees and pilots do not want to kill the company. But you would never know it by the rhetoric of your Union Leaders.

Gentlemen the ball is in your court. You can come back to the table or you may find yourself out in the cold.

Good grief where do you start?

So now the ploy is to tear down Olsen? First it was Gasta with you, now O. I got news for you Troll...it ain't happening!

Management has put this business at risk. They have lost focus of what is most important in this industry. People. The people we serve and the people that are doing the front line serving.

Just had an owner yesterday that ragged this company from the time we shook hands. He was a nice guy, but has been put off with lies and half truths coming from your side of the fence. How do we bring him back into the fold? From our perspective it seems you don't care about that owner. More importantly, HE doesn't think YOU care about him. The giant egos in B-way better start paying attention, because someone will and already has started doing this job better.

By the way, I never heard your song either. More lies from Bway?

 

[squonk]

You're right:

However, knowing there are "two corners", the MEC in one corner, and Buffett/RTS in the other, I'm glad to be in the $43 billion dollar corner. Again, make no mistake, there will be a lot of pain for ALL involved; for the Pilots, BWY employees, Owners, but RTS will never "give in" to the thug mentality that seems to have overcome the "new guard".

Yes, it may be "ego" at this point, but with that backing, he has the staying power

Thanks for making our point.

Tell Richie if he would just share some of that "backing", we wouldn't be in this mess.