• Major updates to Logbook Pro for Android and APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook for 117 are now available. Minor update for Logbook Pro on iOS devices. Click to learn more: APDL 11, Logbook Pro for Android, Logbook Pro for iOS. Update your devices today.

NJA Strong Union Negotiator Summary--Part 1

abenaki

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Posts
133
Total Time
Enough
Beyond what x402 said, no doubt BB reports to SOMEBODY....he's not swinging out there on his own without directives from ABOVE and ABOVE is undoubtedly RTS et al.......and, by the way, that last quote is from RTS himself after completion of the '98 contract......I guess his condescension is coming back to haunt him.
 

longrangekiller

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Posts
49
Total Time
8000
x402

No matter what Mr. B. or Mr S. do, they are rich and you are not. These gentlemen will remain rich and you never will be as long as you are the employee and not the boss.

You can discuss an new contract until the cows come home. You ain't gonna get over one third of a billion (retro and pay increase) first year and new math millions in the following years just because you think you rate it.

Go have a few beers and consider life after NJA. Let it go man.
 

x402

Well-known member
Joined
May 24, 2002
Posts
494
Total Time
10000+
longrangekiller said:
No matter what Mr. B. or Mr S. do, they are rich and you are not. These gentlemen will remain rich and you never will be as long as you are the employee and not the boss.

You can discuss an new contract until the cows come home. You ain't gonna get over one third of a billion (retro and pay increase) first year and new math millions in the following years just because you think you rate it.

Go have a few beers and consider life after NJA. Let it go man.

Well you're right Bill and Rich do have more money than I do, no argument there.
If you read the last part of my post you'll see I allow for the fact we may not get 400m in raises and retro. My point is we'd be foolish not to ask, considering past negotiations with Mr Santulli.
I like your last sentence and I have my ducks in a row, now I'll go find a few adult beverages. Cheers!
 

Fozzy

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
889
Total Time
9000
longrangekiller said:
No matter what Mr. B. or Mr S. do, they are rich and you are not. These gentlemen will remain rich and you never will be as long as you are the employee and not the boss.

You can discuss an new contract until the cows come home. You ain't gonna get over one third of a billion (retro and pay increase) first year and new math millions in the following years just because you think you rate it.

Go have a few beers and consider life after NJA. Let it go man.

I will not let it go. Ego and reputation is a big deal to these assholes. So fine, you can cheer for the other team. Fine. I always love a good fight. I am not going to give up. This place pays or dies. End of story. I guess you are one of those, "I just want to fly a jet types.".

Thanks for your opinion. I am just glad you are not on my team.
 

Ultra Grump

Mmmmm...beer....
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Posts
974
Total Time
years
CMHTroll said:
Bill Boisture is the president that you have to deal with. Not Santulli, not Buffet, not Bush. You sound like the spoiled child who did not get the cookie from one parent and runs to the other, or were you the one who tried to divorce your parents at 16 because they didn't buy you a shiny new sports car?
If you honestly believe that Boisture has the ultimate decision over what is offered and what is approved, you really need to put down the crack pipe and check into Betty Ford, ASAP!
 

longrangekiller

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Posts
49
Total Time
8000
Fozzy

No I do not want to fly jets. If that were true, I would have stayed with the profession instead of starting a new career at the age of 51. My new career is aviation related but not flying and absolutely not with a fractional.

I can say that I enjoyed my time at the fractionals flying Hawkers and X's and I can say that I enjoyed submitting my resignation. It was time to move on to bigger and better things. And things are certainly much better. Basically the same pay, home every night, weekends and all holidays OFF.

Now, you were saying something about just wanting to fly jets? Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, it was OK but it ain't no big deal, and ain't looking back.
 

FAcFriend

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2004
Posts
245
Ultra Grump said:
If you honestly believe that Boisture has the ultimate decision over what is offered and what is approved, you really need to put down the crack pipe and check into Betty Ford, ASAP!

O my gosh- and the MEC and Negotiating Committee gets their power from the union members-

Why not file all 2000+ pilots into each negotiation?

Same logic.
 

Ace-of-the-Base

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 16, 2004
Posts
440
Total Time
9,999.
OK, here's a question:

It sounds like you guys are way far apart. It also seems that being far apart if VERY good for Netjets. Being this far apart means that negotiations are going to stall, or at least take a very long time. Isn't that just what the company would want? You aren't going on strike, so what possible downside is there for Netjets (other than a PR issue).

I've been in a few fistfights in my life (before my gray hair) and the ones that actually ended in blows went there very quickly, not with a bunch of yelling and posturing.

Ace
 

Ultra Grump

Mmmmm...beer....
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Posts
974
Total Time
years
FAcFriend said:
O my gosh- and the MEC and Negotiating Committee gets their power from the union members-

Why not file all 2000+ pilots into each negotiation?

Same logic.
In a sense they did. We have been polled 3 separate times on what we will accept in a new contract, and we'll be asked once again, in the vote, for approval on the eventual TA.

I am saying that the ultimate decision in the company's case rests with Santulli, if not Warren Buffett himself. Boisture gets his marching orders from them. I'm sorry if that's too difficult for you to grasp. I can post the whole exchange again, if it will make it easier for you... :rolleyes:
 

Lake Alice

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Posts
793
Total Time
15000K
It sounds like you guys are way far apart. It also seems that being far apart if VERY good for Netjets. Being this far apart means that negotiations are going to stall, or at least take a very long time. Isn't that just what the company would want? You aren't going on strike, so what possible downside is there for Netjets (other than a PR issue).
Negotiations have stalled a bit or atleast it appears so. As for time who knows. The company is losing a considerable amount of money and owners. The owner retention rate is down significantly and the new owners/marquis card holders has slowed as well. The DNIF rate has hit an all time high and we are seriously short crews and especially captains. I recently quit and was asked to please stay on an extra month to help the October/November season.

Its hard to tell what the company wants. NetJets is certainly run by the kind of people with gigantic ego's. NJA would rather spend more money on sell-offs and lose owners than ever pay anything the union asks for. Unless the union agrees to the company's salaries demands the contract will never get settled. Its all about ego.

As for strike, probably not. Its not totaly ruled out but unlikely. For the pilot group it would be a much quicker solution but the work the pilot group is doing with write-ups, DNIF's, etc is creating incredible havoc on an already disorganized scheduling/maintenance department.

Lastly, the PR issue is getting to the company as well. Owners have recently chartered their own aircraft because they believed NJA was on strike. Also, due to the rash of recent chartered A/C crashed many owners refuse to fly on a non QS tail. Its in owners/Marquis contract that sell-offs are part of the deal but many are putting their foot down.

Recently the budget for media campaigns has been significantly increased so you can expect that will make a difference as well. The richies don't want bad press when they are boarding the jet to fly to Aspen. The bad press is causing problems with attracting new pilots. If your best friend cant recommend the job to you.....? Classes have been cancelled.

Lastly, the quality of the product has simply declined. The airplanes are filthy, full or write ups and MEL's and most crews just dont care anymore. Items that would have been fixed in the past are being deferred and the owners are getting pretty upset. Flying cross country without a LAV or DVD/CD player is unacceptable. Paying to an aircraft with an APU and having one show up in 90 degree weather is the norm. It might sound a little silly were not the ones paying an exorbitant amount of money for a plane. And regardless of anyones opinion on salary the pilot group has been waiting 4 years that will lower anyones moral which affect performance.

All in all it is a very difficult place to work right now.
 

abenaki

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Posts
133
Total Time
Enough
Lake Alice--

A well-written and succinct summary of how it is.....nice job........

As an added note, as long as the FUD campaign continues, the natural result will be more DNIF and fatigue calls.....intentionally inducing negative emotions has the unintended consequence of increasing the DNIF calls.....they can't have it both ways......
 

You're right

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Posts
51
Total Time
none
Lake Alice said:
....... but the work the pilot group is doing with write-ups, DNIF's, etc is creating incredible havoc ..........

Lastly, the quality of the product has simply declined.

Wanted to make certain everyone understood the "legal" work slowdown was having no impact on OUR owners.
 

Lake Alice

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2005
Posts
793
Total Time
15000K
I wouldn't call it a slow down at all, in fact its not. Pilots are simply using their sick time more often. When guys/gals would go out for 5 days, get 2 days off and go out for 6 they are calling in sick. Who wouldnt.

Indirectly the DNIF rates affect the owners as well. Right or wrong, less crews means less planes available and more sell-offs.
 

You're right

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Posts
51
Total Time
none
You're right said:
Wanted to make certain everyone understood the "legal" work slowdown was having no impact on OUR owners.

Okay, let me correct myself, there is definitely no slowdown going on at NetJets.

Our pilots are just much sicker and the planes (average age 4.7 years) are getting old.
 

TheTruthCMH

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Posts
58
Total Time
425
"pilot group is doing with write-ups, DNIF's, etc is creating incredible havoc on an already disorganized scheduling/maintenance department."

Also sounds like no confidence in the Union MEC, for if they did, they wouldn't need to resort to this... Seems like the pilots are bargaining outside of the CBA.

TTC
 

Fracster

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Posts
208
Total Time
Enough
Also sounds like no confidence in the Union MEC, for if they did, they wouldn't need to resort to this... Seems like the pilots are bargaining outside of the CBA.

That is by far one of the dumbest comments I have ever read. So stupid in fact that anyone with common sense could figure out the truth.

the planes (average age 4.7 years) are getting old.

And this comment, well, you couldnt be more ignorant if you tried so I will try to educate you. Follow along now, I know its hard for you but focus.

Simply put, these corporate jets were never designed to fly the amount of legs and hours we use them for. You puzzle palace know it all's think we write these planes up for wings falling off. We write them up because they cant hold hydraulic pressure, accumulator pressure, lights dont work, FMS tubes fade out, O2 masks break, emergency lights break, gear doors dont stay closed. The interiors, which the beloved owners use, have broken lights, broken seats, dvd/cd players, toilets, window shades,filthy carpets, I can go on, and on, and on. We have to try to keep these pos's in the air.
We have to write this crap up so it can get fixed. It NutJets had any common sense what so ever they would fix stuff over night but they dont. "get one more leg out of it" is the motto.
Now crawl back to your hole and educate some of your fellow dummies.
 

You're right

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Posts
51
Total Time
none
Fracster said:
And this comment, well, you couldnt be more ignorant if you tried so I will try to educate you. Follow along now, I know its hard for you but focus.

Simply put, these corporate jets were never designed to fly the amount of legs and hours we use them for. You puzzle palace know it all's think we write these planes up for wings falling off. We write them up because they cant hold hydraulic pressure, accumulator pressure, lights dont work, FMS tubes fade out, O2 masks break, emergency lights break, gear doors dont stay closed. The interiors, which the beloved owners use, have broken lights, broken seats, dvd/cd players, toilets, window shades,filthy carpets, I can go on, and on, and on. We have to try to keep these pos's in the air.
We have to write this crap up so it can get fixed. It NutJets had any common sense what so ever they would fix stuff over night but they dont. "get one more leg out of it" is the motto.
Now crawl back to your hole and educate some of your fellow dummies.
Fracster, I truly want to believe in all the constructive feedback you provide, but I just saw the NJA Maintenance availability posting by fleet for todays activity and then called my friends down in Hilton Head to find out there figures---- the numbers are as follows:

NJA average availability = 66% (which is a good day lately)
NJI average availability = 85% (which, I am told, is an average day)

Under your tutelage above, this leads me to believe the availability difference must be a management issue. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Diesel

TEB Hilton resident
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,394
Total Time
696969
actually a large part of the difference is they fly gulfstreams and we fly cessna's.

I'm sure GV will even agree that the gulfstream is built to the next level while the cessna's barely make it to the lowest level.

One of my last flights in the ultra had 10,000hrs on it and it was only 6 years old. That thing was a POS. I bet you can put 10,000hrs on a gwhiz and it will just keep on truckin.

compare a 800xp's line stats to a X or a ultra. it will make you cringe.

Look at the 650's. I've never seen one fly... it just goes from service center to service center.

Are the pilots flying their aircraft more carefully? I hope so. But you're comparing a cessna pos to the flagship of the buisness jet world. Common man.
 

TheTruthCMH

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Posts
58
Total Time
425
Fracster said:
We write them up because they cant hold hydraulic pressure, accumulator pressure, lights dont work, FMS tubes fade out, O2 masks break, emergency lights break, gear doors dont stay closed. The interiors, which the beloved owners use, have broken lights, broken seats, dvd/cd players, toilets, window shades,filthy carpets, I can go on, and on, and on. We have to try to keep these pos's in the air.
We have to write this crap up so it can get fixed. It NutJets had any common sense what so ever they would fix stuff over night but they dont. "get one more leg out of it" is the motto.
Now crawl back to your hole and educate some of your fellow dummies.

Yeah, I am sure we have plenty of mechanics waiting to fix these planes in the out of the way places where the planes are being written up after being ferried in. For the rest they have an MEL don't they? They don't get grounded for MEL's do they? And it's pretty amazing that the emergency lights worked before they departed...

TTC
 
Top