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NJA Strong Union Negotiator Summary--Part 1

abenaki

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The following is Strong Union's Negotiator Tom Gasta's summary of negotiations copied here with his permission:

For you company folks, you may find some contrasts here worth analyzing:


A Final Response to "BM" Bridgeway Moron!









“Negotiations Update, 9-15-2005”




Only dealing in Reality and not the Half Truths, or Complete Lies













Hello Pilots, Flight Attendants, Company Employees, and Management

Unlike the unsigned propaganda that was paged to most of you tonight, I will tell you who I am, and where I have been, where I came from, and what has happened not only over the last 9 months of our negotiations but over the last 17 years I have been here. My name is Tom Gasta, a Boeing Business Jet Captain that has flown the Citation S/II that started the Fractional Idea in the first place, several thousand hours worth. I also flew the Lear 35 that was a mainstay of the BS (Before Santulli) years for Executive Jet Aviation. I also have several thousand hours in the Citation Ultra that so many of you still enjoy. The Citation X, and the Falcon 2000 are also on my resume from working at just this Company. And most importantly, I have probably close to 1500 hours flying another machine for this Company over the last 17 plus years. I have flown the Bargaining Table at 4 different Union and Company Negotiations sessions over the last 17 years as well.

So lets first discuss the players in these current Negotiations. When you get a page from some “ashamed” individual who is afraid to put his name on the page, one talking about what was done “in the last contract”, or years before that, or heck, even 3 years ago, you are hearing from someone who wasn’t even employed at this Company at the time. The Company’s President, Bill Boisture is at the table. The Company’s Labor Relations Director, Mark Okey is at the table. Several other recent employees of the Company has come and gone, including the latest arrival to the festivities, Dave McGhee. Not one of the individuals was at the table in 1997 or 1998 when the current contract was negotiated. The one individual who was, who made statements to me and several other current pilots at NJA, the one who made promises not only at the 1997, but the 1992 and previous talks, one Mr. Richard T. Santulli was not. So when you read statements from the “Bridgeway Moron” (BM) sending you pages, be absolutely sure that they were not here, they were not in the talks, and they have no idea what was said. One common statement made by Richard Santulli in many of these previous talks, including public statements made to hundreds of Pilots in “Hanger Talks” over the last 17 years is that he will never lie to us, he will stand by his word, that he is a man of honor and of his word. Perhaps his lack of attendance at the current sessions is that such statements of the past may come back to haunt him. In any case, the statements made by the “BM” in the recent page can only be taken seriously if made by those with any clue what was, and what now is, and nobody in management who are surface bargaining today can talk with any credibility. Of course, neither can Richard Santulli, not with this pilot group with a couple hundred pilots that were here.

As I fly back to my home tonight, I am making my last comments about the point we find ourselves in and the Company’s attempt at propaganda. While I understand that most of you know just how baseless and distorted the “BM” pages are, I will attempt to go over each, battery willing.

First, while the Company may have been sitting at some table in Bridgeway negotiating without us, we were also sitting at a table less than a hundred yards from them, waiting for a call. We were available to seriously negotiate, as was told to them on our departure on Monday. It seems they didn’t want to seriously negotiate wages, as has been their position and practice over much of the last 9 months, not just the last 30-day period. To use their words, regrettably, they only wanted to talk to themselves, and start spending all the “Capital and Cash Flow” that they now seem to have. I left Columbus at 5:35PM, no calls.

We will most certainly publish our wage table now as well. This table includes a 12% penalty for the Company refusal to bring the Gulfstream Aircraft into our operation, and represents an attempt, as I told the Company Negotiators many months ago, to have Gulfstream Wages here, if not the aircraft. More later.

We are still in an abeyance, yes, we still are. Can we strike, no we can’t. Don’t want to, really!

“BM” #2. We are without a third party “accounting review”. Yes we are, sure enough. First everyone should know that the Company asked for and the Union agreed to postpone the review throughout the last 30 days. When “BM” says the “Union”, I think he still thinks of that as the Negotiating Committee or the Executive Counsel. He clearly has no idea that the “Union” is the 2200 of you, including the “5% trouble makers” and the “7%” who seem to think life is well. But just as Bill Boisture is a puppet dancing to the string pulls from Woodbridge and maybe even Omaha, we, the Negotiating Committee, are also just employees, and our strings are pulled by our 2200 boss men as well. When we tell the Company that we are not interested in a cursory financial audit, we are telling them that you, the “Union” told us, as late as last week that you don’t care what the survey would reveal, and more importantly, you do not believe the shell game of vendors, third party interests, Marquis, EJM, etc., can be audited anyway. What “BM” didn’t tell you is that when the Company questioned us about the “Financial Audit” on Monday, we responded with an offer to complete such a review, but, it would not be cursory. We told him that any audit that would have any credibility with the “Union” would have to be a very serious forensic audit, that we would not question the math on the books, but rather look for where the profits are spent, who is getting them, and why. Mr. Boisture simply has no stomach for such a review. So what about “BM’s” statement that we didn’t want to follow “that straight forward directive” of the NMB. First, there was never such a “directive” from the NMB. But lets not let facts stand in the way. Rather, lets talk about real facts and real “Straight Forward Directives”. The NMB, through an Arbitrator complying with the Railway Labor Act, directed the Company to comply with his order and return Mr. Jason Piper to work after being unjustly terminated. A couple of months later the Company has not done so, rather is complaining to a US Circuit Court because they don’t want to. About a month ago, another Arbitrator acting on the authority of the RLA and the NMB ordered, through a “Straight Forward Written, Legal Document” that the Company comply with the contract of 1998 that Santulli agreed to and pay pilots on the 7 and 7 an extended days pay for working on what should have been day 7 of the “7 consecutive days off” part of our 7 and 7 schedule. Once again, another directive has been ignored and again the Company runs to the 7th Circuit looking for sympathy, because, “they can’t afford it.” So, before “BM” makes righteous comments about the “Union” complying with the NMB, I would be happy to compare written directives any day, how about you “BM?” Do the employees of NJA think it is “the right thing to do” to have Pilots work extra days over the last 7 years at no charge? Would they do so? Didn’t think so.

END OF PART 1
 
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dsptchrnja

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So far I have only read "part 1". I intend to read them with an open mind and with the following questions in mind: "how does the union justify the cost of their proposal?" and "what is the union proactively doing to go forward in order to resolve the bargaining in good faith?" I recognize the right and privilage that Mr. Gasta has to counter any claims made by the company and hope this will be insightful.

So far I am appalled at the style of communication Mr. Gasta uses to communicate and am surprised he would give you permission the repeat this outside union walls. It sounds desperate and childish when you have to resort to calling Mr. Boisture a moron and a puppet. We all know the internal communications are not sent without Mr. Boisture's approval and he is the Bridgeway Moron Mr. Gasta is referring to. In fact he has signed several of the internal communications. There is not guessing who they are from. It's hardly an issue.

Most appaling is Mr. Gasta's flat out lie concerning the company's financial review directive from the NMB: "So what about “BM’s” statement that we didn’t want to follow “that straight forward directive” of the NMB. First, there was never such a “directive” from the NMB."

Did he not know that the company posted the actual fax from the NMB on the Intranet? I am looking at it now - it is signed from Brad Laslett, Mediator, NMB. And it clearly says in black and white that the parites will be held in abeyance until the "...carrier's financial condition has been reached". I call that a directive. I realize that there was a temporary agreement made by both parties to forego that directive in hopes of reaching a deal. Since this has not been accomplished, neither party can come out of abeyence until they agree on the costing of the proposals and NJA's financial condition. A strike isn't even possible for a long, long time. One encouraging note from Mr. Gasta was that a strike is not what he is after. I assume that he is representing the majority of the union with that statement and it will put the strike-hungry teamsters posting on this board in their place.

Further discouraging is the comment that "...we are telling them that you, the “Union” told us, as late as last week that you don’t care what the [financial] survey would reveal" ...when even the company made this statement in their communications this week even I thought it must be out of context and over the top. Apparently not, since Mr. Gasta himself now affirms this is true. So far I don't see this as negotiating in good faith. The company agreed to open all the books. Any financial review will show clearly where all monies are coming in and going out. I no longer have to wonder whether the union is serious about a financial review from Mr. Gasta's own words alone. They have clearly already decided the company is playing "shell games" without even finding out for themselves. Completely unprofessional.

These are the writings of what I would expect from a disgruntled amateur on this board, not a paid negotiating professional. Very sad indeed.

It'll be days before I can read through the rest of the company's 11 page proposal and the next 2 of your postings. I hope there is something more encouraging than this.
 

Diesel

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The union is not negotiating with you. They are negotiating with the company. You have no role in any of this. You can't vote, you don't have anything to say about it. It's sad but true.

So far I have only read "part 1". I intend to read them with an open mind and with the following questions in mind: "how does the union justify the cost of their proposal?"

If you read the whole posting your questions would be answered.

But i guess cutting and pasting the only stuff you want takes up too much time to read the whole thing.
 

dsptchrnja

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Did you even get passed the first line?

Hello Pilots, Flight Attendants, Company Employees, and Management



...I am on my way out of town and only had time for this part.. if the rest answers my quesitons than I apologize for being hasty.

Have a nice weekend.
 
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x402

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These are the writings of what I would expect from a disgruntled amateur on this board, not a paid negotiating professional. Very sad indeed.

I'm sure you meant volunteer negotiator, and the writings are a clear example of the frustration of dealing with errand boys while the folks in control lay back until the breaking point is reached.
That point has been reached and no negotiations are on the horizon. Happy Holidays!!!
 

TonyC

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NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR SUMMARY-Part 2

(Copied from another thread (you don't need 3 threads for one 3-part message)) abenaki :

Part 2 of Tom Gasta's negotiations summary:

"Lets talk about “BM’s” statement about the costs of proposals. The “Union” never stated that we would rely on the Company cost proposals when it came to our positions in bargaining. We said that we really didn’t find a need, as we knew what our proposals cost. And at every meeting, we were proven correct, eventually, when the Company finally told us what they cost in their eyes. On Monday, the Company Mr. Okey abruptly claimed that Joe Arton didn’t know the cost of our proposal on retro. After Joe politely informed Okey that he was “mistaken”, and that he was being a gentleman and not tearing apart their financial analyst’s cost figures, to save her embarrassment, he told them that the retro was just over $400 million. However, Mr. Okey defended the Company position that it was $490, but then they decided, no, it was $440. On Tuesday, at a recurrent class of 60 pilots, Mr. Boisture, in his one minute presentation stated that it was $400 million! WTFO? And because of my previous post on the board, “BM” now, on today’s propaganda page seems to agree with the “Union’s” costing of the retro, and uses it in their calculations. Is anybody getting a little bit of a clue as to why we really don’t want or need the “Company” costs? I already talked about the savings generated for the Company in so many areas of the TA that mysteriously doesn’t get into the Company Costs figures!

“BM” posted several figures as far as our wages, current and proposed stack up. I suspect Joe may make more comments on this, but lets look at some realities. “BM” states that under the current contract that our salary would be $451 million over the next three years, versus, $854 million that we have proposed. This is a difference of $134 million per year. But what “BM” always seems to forget is that the pilots are working on a pay scale that has not seen a cost of living increase in 7 years. A pilot coming to work here today is working at the exact same wage as a pilot was paid in October of 1998 on his first day. A pilot who came here after the 1998 contract was reached is working for the same 7th year pay that a pilot who was here at the time was making when he was on his 7th year. I wonder, has the starting pay for Dispatchers, Secretaries, Schedulers, linemen, and yes Presidents gone up over the last 7 years? Not for pilots! And best of all the Company has been collecting MILLIONS of dollars over the last 7 years from owners. 3.75% more for the last several years, slightly less prior. Not one dime of those Management Fee and Hourly Fee increases over the last 7 years has found its way into the pay scale that pilots are working on today. Yet in Company literature, Management Fee’s are supposed to be used, along with other things, for “Pilot Salaries”. So later when “BM” says the “Union” says, “you should of prepared 3 or 4 years ago”, he is wrong. They should have prepared SEVEN (7) YEARS AGO! So what would be our “Current wage scale” if about 24%, compounded annually would have been put into the scales over the last 7 years? I suspect that our current “BM” estimate of $451 million over the next three years would be much, much higher, and a whole lot closer to the “Union” demands. And remember, over the next three years, the Company is still collecting that good ole 3.75%, “for Pilot Salaries!”

$1.299 Billion dollars is what “BM” now calculates is the cost over 3 years. Big number for sure. In 1998 we had a few hundred pilots, we now have close to 2200, the number will be big, especially when we are now attempting to claim the prize money Santulli promised to the pilots over the last 12 years. It is a big number when pilots are now asking to be paid what the best of the pilots flying the same aircraft for Fortune 500 Companies are already getting paid. Considering we do 5 times the flight hours, 7 times the nights away from the family, go to a thousand airports with 100o different personalities to know and attend to (the owners), to handle them as if they were the only people we ever flew, yes, we think we deserve it, and when you are the lowest paid in the EJA manufactured industry, it will cost BIG Dollars to finally keep the promises!

Q and A time.

How can the Company afford “three times current payroll”.

Answer: First, the payroll is only 2 times as much, but “BM” knew that, he simply wants to dazzle you. The three times comes with the Retro pay. Retro is a simple thing. If the contract should have been renewed in 2001, then that’s when it should have been done. Instead, we have been working for 4 plus years now without the increases that should have been there in 2001. Considering the earlier discussion that we didn’t receive COLA for 7 years, what the Company would like for us to do is once again, is work for free. Much like the thousands of free extra workdays we gave away over the 7and 7 violation of the contract, the Company would like us to reward them with 4 years of work with no pay increase, to encourage them next negotiations, to take as long as they want, no problem, we will work for free! Not going happen Santulli, forget about it. As explained above, yes, the Company has used MILLIONS of dollars of COLA and pilot increases to fund other great money losing adventures around the world. But now, as of Tuesday, tell us that they have all the “Capital and Cash Flow” to fight us, to waste on sell-offs, and to give to disgruntled owners when they come looking for the money back on purchase cost of their share. They will need to give away free trips to that Marquis deal as make up for flying them on “Fleets not by NetJets”. Yes, Santulli should have dang well prepared, prepared to keep the promise. And it is clear by the words of Santulli coming from Boisture’s mouth, “we have the cash flow and the capital”, oh really?"

"Does the pilots understand the impact of their demands and lack of “financial review”?

Why yes, I believe they do. They have told us, overwhelmingly, that it would be a sham of Enron and Worldcom proportions. And, with the latest stance by Woodbridge and their statements of unlimited money to fight us, it is clear we and the pilots are correct about the real value of this Company.

End of Part 2
 

TonyC

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NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 3

Does the Pilot’s know the Union agreed in writing to allow NJI to operate separately?

Well, I suspect that most do, and why. But sit back and lets tell the truth. Again, this is where you need to remember that nobody on the Company Negotiations Committee has a clue, they weren’t here. I was! In 1995 Santulli started up a joint Gulfstream deal with Gulfstream Aerospace and a Mr. Ted Forstman. The “God’s Honest Truth”, from the mouth of Richard T. Santulli was that “Teddy can’t stand Unions and he will not do the deal if you guys fly them.” When we entered negotiations in 1997, these same statements were made over and over again “If I have to bring them to EJA, Forstman will cancel the deal and we will not be able to realize the growth for the whole Company” said Santulli. But Rich, do you want us to fly the, on your honor and having never lied to us? “Absolutely, if it was up to me they would be at Columbus” said Rich. In 1998, was aware of an impending deal with Boeing, and he agreed that he would bring them here, to EJA. He stated “The Boeings will pay more than the Gulfstreams, we have 30 on order and this will provide higher pay for everybody here at ratification”. Do the pilots and people of NetJets know that we only had 5 BBJs, that the Company reduced them to 4? Does the employees know that they now have a deal to sell 191QS and only three will remain. He also said that the Gulfstream Operation would never grow more than a couple aircraft a year, that we had no worries about them getting larger. He also stated that with the Gulfstream deal, it made all of EJA that much more attractive, and to please let him “get them started up” and the financial returns for us will be quickly realized and passed on! Now, this was not just the words of Santulli, but in fact were the words of Mr. David Orlinski, as well. Don’t believe me, ask Ted Wright, Dave Roebuck, they were both here as well, unlike “BM” The “Union” allowed the Gulfstreams on very clear conditions of growth for EJA/NJA, for 30 Boeings at the top of the scale, and because Santulli wouldn’t have Gulfstreams if we went after them, “until after the Joint Marketing Agreement” with Gulfstream ended. It has ended, and now is the time. Additionally, the Company is wasting millions on a double managed operation. Are the employees of Columbus unable to manage the Gulfstreams? They manage BBJs all over the world, what could possibly be the difference at this point? Why have to separate management and support staffs? One word folks, EGO! Two words BROKEN PROMISES!

Now “BM” also wants to tell you that bringing the NJI operation here would have no affect on our career paths and goals unless massive attrition or expansion was to occur in the Gulfstream. Well, Santulli lied about the “tiny expansion” of them over the last 7 years, so we should now believe that they wouldn’t expand now? Is that another story? And “BM”, I have told the “Union” a hundred times on this very Message Board how the deal was made and under what circumstances, so yes, we have informed them, maybe you missed it. The “Man of his word” simply wasn’t in 1998, and now that there is no “make believe reason” that they have to be separate, it is time for those “financial returns” or the aircraft themselves. And, speaking of men of their word and moral character, when this same story was relayed to our new hire Mr. Boisture, guess what his response was! Anybody? “Did you get that in writing!” That’s right folks, seems that we have to get Santullis promises in writing because he seems not to be trustworthy. Well Mr. Santulli, that is exactly what we are now doing, getting the NJI operation, in writing, in Section 1, or, the salry scale you have now, “IN WRITING” in Section 27. Not that our contract and it’s legal interpretation means much to such an ethical business anyway, but we are doing what our pilots want, getting it “IN WRITING!” Why shouldn’t we, we have been paying for them and every other far flung investment over the last SEVEN years with our salaries!

“BM” also believes that all the pilots at NJI would come here and be in a Union. Not from what I have read by some of the “Prima Donnas” on other message boards. He also seems to think that their seniority is greater than those here now! Mr. “BM” you need to look at a seniority list and go back and do the math. Could there be a deal with the “Union”, very possibly, would it be one sided, NOT ON YOUR LIFE!

Do the pilots know about the “International Premium Pilot Wage”?

We mentioned it, but as it affects so very few pilots, and more importantly is as big an insult as the NJI operation, we didn’t go into detail. Battery going low, but will continue.
The “IPPW” proposal handed out on Monday for the first time was the convoluted idea that rather than bring the Gulfstreams and their salaries here, they would pay 2000EX pilots more, because they can “reliably fly from New York to London”. So, as it would pay more, you can expect all the senior pilots, 14 year plus, 12 year, etc, to bid the. How much would this career path to the big money pay. $103,000 regardless of your seniority. So if a pilot was here for 17 years say, he would make about $5,000 more a year than he does today, and has at leat 7 years more blood, sweat, and tears “invested” in this Company than the oldest NJI pilot. Want to guess what an NJI pilot with 10 years makes? Depending on which one, but clearly all of them, SUBSTANTIALLY MORE! This is the smoke and mirror “work-around” the NJI issue, pay our pilots far less than any NJI Captain and that will make it better. And, that same NJA pilot could bid a 400XP Beech Junk and make a whooping $1,700.00 a year less than he would as a career goaled “IPPW” pilot. Did “BM” tell you that, look at the charts and see for yourself, we have nothing to hide. Yes “BM” we understood the “benefits” to the pilots, but more importantly we understood the “BENEFIT TO THE COMPANY” and yes, it was rejected. It was rejected before we left the room, but nice try.

Do the pilots know there is no threat to them from NJI?

Surely “BM” you jest! When the G-200s came here, the same Moral and ethical men of their word began playing with them, stating they would go to NJI because they were “Gulfstreams”. What about the Astra’s, will they be the same? What about some future “Gulfstream”? What about doing “International Shuttles”, anything for us in that? Do the pilots, the “Union” recognize the threat, bet your ass Santulli they do, make no mistake! They also recognize the threat of the impending FLOPS deal, the loss of the BBJs, the formation of Scheduled operations by EJM, and the hundred other ways to funnel money to other “divisions” of NJ, Inc., and Berkshire Hathaway. In case you didn’t see it yet “BM”, the number one issue has changes from the surveys of January to the one just completed, SCOPE is now number one on the list! I think they get it!

Did the “Union” tell the pilots that we would drop the salary demands in they came?

Why yes “BM” we did, go back and read my post again, I know you have it. “10 to 12” percent lower with the Gulfstreams. Did you also read the part about just how many millions that equates to each year that Woodbridge is willing to spend for his EGO? That is 20 plus million to keep them separate, plus the costs of double management, per year. Pretty big EGO don’t you think! And for sake of clarity, it was YOUR SIDE that decided not to bring them here, so back to the cost factors of our offer. You and Santulli may have forgotten that 12 percent of our proposal is a cost for NJI, not NJA. NJI is deciding to have that extra $20 MILLION a year be charged to them. We do not claim that cost at all, that expense is one that is made out of the EGO of the CEO and has nothing to do with us. Please remember to take those annual costs out from now on, can you? And “BM”, does the other employees of NJA know that this waste in double management is being spent by NJI but being paid for by NJA? Get an idea about that “Forensic Audit” we offered. Based on the rejection by the Company, I think you do!

 

TonyC

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NJA STRONG UNION NEGOTIATOR'S SUMMARY--Part 4

I don't know how I could copy a post from another thread and it wind up being too long to post here, but it did, so I had to break it up into 3 and four. Here's the last part:


Do the pilots know about the 7 and 7?

Why again yes, and I believe you can also read my previous post to figure out the Cost Savings these pilots would be giving the Company. They also know about the so-called “gateway” flying you keep talking about. Need to update your terminology, your confusing people. But you know what else the pilots know? They know that the non-union “prima donnas” at NJI, getting paid substantially more than them, are also enjoying quite a different “Gateway” flying arrangement than your handlers have proposed for the bastard step children at NJA, or, did you really know that? Did you know that new hires at NJI don’t have to live at a pre-determined location like you propose for us? Did you know that they have no time arrival deal at a pre-determined airport to fly “from home”? And, did you know that our current Section 13 is Tentative based on our clearly stated intentions, from day one, to have NJI in our operation. You may want to start calculating the costs of losing your “RCA” concept in that same dollars that EGO is going to spend, cause I don’t think we can ask the “Union” to accept a home basing plan that is discriminatory from a reference of what NJI has, just something to look forward to. Quite simply Mr. “BM”, the PILOTS of this UNION fully understand every part of NJI, they understand the continued insult, the real loss of JOBS and CAREER POTENTIAL, and they have “pulled our strings”, and what you see is what you get. When the Deceit and Spin is ready to make way to serious talks. When EGO is ready to take a back seat to simple common good business decisions, they know where to reach us, but otherwise, thanks for another 5 gallon can of gasoline for the fire, you truly help.

END
 

FamilyGuy

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abenaki said:

“Negotiations Update, 9-15-2005”



Only dealing in Reality and not the Half Truths, or Complete Lies


Hello Pilots, Flight Attendants, Company Employees, and Management

My name is Tom Gasta... I have flown the Bargaining Table at 4 different Union and Company Negotiations sessions over the last 17 years as well.

Hang on a second...I need some background here....

the pilots are not happy with their current agreement, they think they are getting screwed by the company, so they vote out their old MEC and replace it with another, yet they dont replace the people that negotiated the original deal?

How does that happen?

If you have no confidence in the old MEC, why do you have confidence in the old negotiators?


abenaki said:

What “BM” didn’t tell you is that when the Company questioned us about the “Financial Audit” on Monday, we responded with an offer to complete such a review, but, it would not be cursory. We told him that any audit that would have any credibility with the “Union” would have to be a very serious forensic audit, that we would not question the math on the books, but rather look for where the profits are spent, who is getting them, and why.

Dont these forensic audits take a long time?

From what I've been able to gather through a google search on the subject, it is not uncommon for this type of audit to take 4-6 months to complete, at a cost of 12-15 million.

If you're serious about this, then I'd suggest starting now....at this rate we wont be done with the audits before next summer.

abenaki said:
The NMB, through an Arbitrator complying with the Railway Labor Act, directed the Company to comply with his order and return Mr. Jason Piper to work after being unjustly terminated. A couple of months later the Company has not done so, rather is complaining to a US Circuit Court because they don’t want to.

Isnt this just another step in the legal process?

Wouldnt the union avail itself of all options if the tables were turned and they were in the same position?
 

FamilyGuy

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abenaki said:
And remember, over the next three years, the Company is still collecting that good ole 3.75%, “for Pilot Salaries!”

I think that 3.75% covers a lot of other things besides pilot salaries.

And the portion that is in there for 'pilot salaries' would probably be hard pressed to cover the seniority raises that every pilot receives each year.


abenaki said:
$1.299 Billion dollars is what “BM” now calculates is the cost over 3 years. Big number for sure. In 1998 we had a few hundred pilots, we now have close to 2200, the number will be big, especially when we are now attempting to claim the prize money Santulli promised to the pilots over the last 12 years. It is a big number when pilots are now asking to be paid what the best of the pilots flying the same aircraft for Fortune 500 Companies are already getting paid. Considering we do 5 times the flight hours, 7 times the nights away from the family, go to a thousand airports with 100o different personalities to know and attend to (the owners), to handle them as if they were the only people we ever flew, yes, we think we deserve it, and when you are the lowest paid in the EJA manufactured industry, it will cost BIG Dollars to finally keep the promises!

Again, this has been flogged to death in numerous posts on this board.

Comparing NJA to NBAA corporate flight departments makes as much sense as comparing NJA to the airlines.

The best comparison is NJA vs our competitors - Citation Shares, Flight Options, and FlexJet. Currently NetJets does lag these three....but I dont think it will take $1.299 Billion to put NJA in the lead for pilot wages.
 

Hogprint

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The best comparison is NJA vs our competitors - Citation Shares, Flight Options, and FlexJet. Currently NetJets does lag these three....

Please don't forget NJI, NJE and good old EJM.
 

FamilyGuy

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Hogprint said:
Please don't forget NJI, NJE and good old EJM.


I'm sorry....are they competitors?

Are they flying the same aircraft, with the same work rules, the same schedules, and the same productivity levels?

Do they have the same administration costs associated with operating in a union environment?

I wonder how much these negotiations themselves have cost...
 

Ultra Grump

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FamilyGuy said:
I think that 3.75% covers a lot of other things besides pilot salaries.
Here, I think you need this: http://www.elmprep.com/

First let's say, as an example, that the monthly management fees for a 1/x share of an Ultra are $10,000. Let's also pretend that the portion of that earmarked for pilot salaries is 20%. So $2,000 per month is set aside per 1/x share. If the fees are increased 3.75%, they are now $10,375. 20% of that is $2,075. $2,075 just happens to be an increase of 3.75% over the previous $2,000 pilot salary earmark. So if management fees go up 3.75%, one would expect, since that's where the pilots' salaries come from, for them to increase a commensurate amount. They haven't.

And the portion that is in there for 'pilot salaries' would probably be hard pressed to cover the seniority raises that every pilot receives each year.
That is making the false assumption that there is no growth. As more new-hires are added to the bottom of the list, the overall pilot costs generally will decrease, on a per-pilot basis. 76% of the pilot group has been here 6 years or less. Not exactly at the top of the payscale yet, are we?

Comparing NJA to NBAA corporate flight departments makes as much sense as comparing NJA to the airlines.
Then why did the company do just that? What exactly have we got in common with ASA, besides both working on a 7-year-old contract?
 

Ultra Grump

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FamilyGuy said:
I'm sorry....are they competitors?
That is relevant because...

Are they flying the same aircraft
In most cases, yes.

with the same work rules, the same schedules
In most cases, better.

and the same productivity levels?
In most cases, worse.

Do they have the same administration costs associated with operating in a union environment?
Our dues pay for the union administration, not the company.

I wonder how much these negotiations themselves have cost...
Are you kidding? This has been the best deal the company could hope for - pilots continuing to work for 4+ years on a 7-year-old, sub-par contract.
 

BE200Driver

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Ultra Grump said:
Are you kidding? This has been the best deal the company could hope for - pilots continuing to work for 4+ years on a 7-year-old, sub-par contract.

And who's decision is that?
 

BE200Driver

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I see. I hope that line of reasoning works on my boss. LOL
 

CMHTroll

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Correction

Ultra Grump said:
At this point, it's Richard Santulli's.

Bill Boisture is the president that you have to deal with. Not Santulli, not Buffet, not Bush. You sound like the spoiled child who did not get the cookie from one parent and runs to the other, or were you the one who tried to divorce your parents at 16 because they didn't buy you a shiny new sports car?
 

x402

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CMHTroll said:
Bill Boisture is the president that you have to deal with. Not Santulli, not Buffet, not Bush. You sound like the spoiled child who did not get the cookie from one parent and runs to the other, or were you the one who tried to divorce your parents at 16 because they didn't buy you a shiny new sports car?

He wasn't the President when these negotiations started and I can almost assure you he will be gone before they are completed. He has failed in so many ways, not bringing a 'reasonable' offer to the pilots is only one of his mistakes. Inching your way closer to something that might get 50%+1 is bleeding this 'cash rich' (their words) operation and damaging the brand. Even his Senior VP has said the length of the talks has been a huge detriment to the company and if 'he was in charge' this would not have happened. Sounds like the house of Boisture is coming to a close. I'm sure he'll parachute out with a nice severence for selling off the core fleet to pump up the bottom line and having failed to gain a CBA to move this company forward.
At any rate, Troll, you don't get a vote and that makes me very happy. Olsen, Gasta etal maintain the support from the members as shown in the latest survey. They need serious people on the other side of the table to get this done, not Union Busting Attorneys and other company hacks.
Maybe we won't get 100% plus 100% retro, but if we asked for less how stupid could we be? No more,"Gee you guys could have done a lot better."
 
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