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My actions? I'm furloughed. I'm just giving you an education in how scope erosion works. You can lead a horse to water...
 
imacdog said:
My actions? I'm furloughed. I'm just giving you an education in how scope erosion works. You can lead a horse to water...
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Sorry, I didn't mean your actions personally. I really hope you find a good gig, any ideas where you might end up?
 
G4dude said:
The only thing that changed, in my opinion, is that the Union got them all stirred up over an inconsequential issue.
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Just to pick one of the many issues that the company has sent our way, let's look at the 401K. The company unilaterally changed the plan and provider, despite a contractual requirement that any changes would have to be agreed by the union. How is screwing with my retirement fund, in direct violation of the contract, "inconsequential"?
 
G4dude said:
What a shame. We have one of the best flying jobs in the world, and y'all are going to screw it up. Every time I think I have seen the depths of Union Stupidity Stampeding, something like this gets started.
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No, you and your ilk are screwing it up if you give in on scope. Please, I implore you. Educate yourself (and the others in the minority view) on the RLA and our contract.

It is boring reading, I know, but our collective future depends on an educated pilot force. As your posts have more than implied, you're far off the mark on being on target here.
 
G4dude said:
I am trying to save their employer, so they will have jobs. I feel you are trying to throw my fellow pilots under the bus, not intentionally, but by the results of your actions.
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With all due respect, negotiating away scope will not save your employer. If the situation is so dire that absent this concession our jobs go away, they were not long for this world anyway...

Furthermore, if you truly believe (as you have written in a previous post) that NetJets is one of the best jobs in the world, why would you not do everything you could to protect the things that make it so great?!

I am assuming that the pay, work rules, health insurance, retirement contributions, etc. that you enjoy are what make this one of the best aviation jobs out there? How long do you think that will last once EJM is competing for a more significant share of your flying? Most EJM pilots are making 50-75% of the pay (and nowhere near the work rules or other perks) that you enjoy so:

Why would management continue "overpaying" you if someone else will do it so much cheaper?

What would stop management from transferring an ever increasing amount of your flying to EJM if you piss away scope?
 
Ahh he's ex-charter, ex-corporate....He's used to getting b!tch slapped. Really, you're aviation history explains everything. (no offense to any one else with nothing but charter/corporate only backgrounds.) But hopefully for the rest of you, you're spinal matter hasn't creeped to your brain and ruined your cognitive thought process like G4.


I sure am glad your ideas are shared by maybe 2% of the rest of the general aviation world.
 
I still think he's mgmt. Probably S.E.
 
CA1900 said:
Just to pick one of the many issues that the company has sent our way, let's look at the 401K. The company unilaterally changed the plan and provider, despite a contractual requirement that any changes would have to be agreed by the union. How is screwing with my retirement fund, in direct violation of the contract, "inconsequential"?
Click to expand...

The previous administrator changed things, limiting our investment choices. That's is why the change was made to Schwab.
 
rajflyboy said:
there you go confusing threats with facts again

51% get the pilot group a yes vote and you boys don't have it
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if I represent myself, and you represent yourself, then 100% of your and my choices are presented to the company. Much better than a union, in my opinion.
 
G4dude said:
The previous administrator changed things, limiting our investment choices. That's is why the change was made to Schwab.
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It would have taken 15 minutes to involve the union as contractually agreed to legally make the change. Now it's going to cost them some $$$ for being stupid.
 
G4dude said:
The previous administrator changed things, limiting our investment choices. That's is why the change was made to Schwab.
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That doesn't matter. The contract is very specific:

The Company will maintain its 401(k) Plan for unionized crewmem- bers. The Company and the Union may change the Plan during the term of this Agreement by mutual consent, but no change will result in lesser benefits than those in existence at the time this Agreement is made.
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No mutual consent was reached, nor even sought. If Fidelity no longer offered the current plan, then the new one must be a mutual decision, not a unilateral one.

This is but one of many situations where the company has flatly disregarded the contract it signed with its pilots.
 
CA1900 said:
That doesn't matter. The contract is very specific:

No mutual consent was reached, nor even sought. If Fidelity no longer offered the current plan, then the new one must be a mutual decision, not a unilateral one.

This is but one of many situations where the company has flatly disregarded the contract it signed with its pilots.
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And to add to this, did anyone ask why fidelity decided to change their options? I guarantee they would've given us the same options if management was willing to pay. I don't know if fidelity asked for more or if the company asked for a reduction in price (like they did with everyone else), or even if the company was lying about it all together. All I know for sure is that the company broke the contract and that this is but 1 of over 60 recent instances of their actions in willfully breaking the contract. They are actively attacking us and it's time to actively discourage this behavior. I just can't see how anyone can say they are not actively taking concessions and actively trying to bust the union. These actions aren't just harmful to those who want to be in the union they are taking away from all of us- former NJI included.
 
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jtf said:
And to add to this, did anyone ask why fidelity decided to change their options? I guarantee they would've given us the same options if management was willing to pay. I don't know if fidelity asked for more or if the company asked for a reduction in price (like they did with everyone else), or even if the company was lying about it all together. All I know for sure is that the company broke the contract and that this is but 1 of over 60 recent instances of their actions in willfully breaking the contract. They are actively attacking us and it's time to actively discourage this behavior. I just can't see how anyone can say they are not actively taking concessions and actively trying to bust the union. These actions aren't just harmful to those who want to be in the union they are taking away from all of us- former NJI included.
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I didn't even know this was an issue among the crews until I read it yesterday on this site. Do y'all ever enjoy the blue sky and the travel and the fact we have a job and the companionship of the crews? Or do you incessantly parse the contract? I know the answer to that, the question is rhetorical.
 
CA1900 said:
That doesn't matter. The contract is very specific:

No mutual consent was reached, nor even sought. If Fidelity no longer offered the current plan, then the new one must be a mutual decision, not a unilateral one.

This is but one of many situations where the company has flatly disregarded the contract it signed with its pilots.
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Boy, Luthi has gotten the Sheep ALL stirred up over this stuff. Pathetic.
 
G4dude said:
Boy, Luthi has gotten the Sheep ALL stirred up over this stuff. Pathetic.
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He has nothing to do with it. I was stirred up about this the minute the company announced it.

G4dude said:
I didn't even know this was an issue among the crews until I read it yesterday on this site. Do y'all ever enjoy the blue sky and the travel and the fact we have a job and the companionship of the crews?
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Of course I enjoy all of that when I'm at work. But make no mistake, this is how I make my living. Blue sky and travel don't pay my bills, and companionship doesn't fund my retirement.
 
CA1900 said:
He has nothing to do with it. I was stirred up about this the minute the company announced it.



Of course I enjoy all of that when I'm at work. But make no mistake, this is how I make my living. Blue sky and travel don't pay my bills, and companionship doesn't fund my retirement.
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if NJA gets priced out of the marketplace, you won't be able to pay your bills and fund your retirement, it seems to me. Unions create the sclerotic businesses they then blame management for.
 
Posted by me: So you are OK with unilateral changes to your hard earned money without your agreed upon say in the matter?
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Response by G4: Yes. It seems small beer compared to how good the job is.
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Really? What more can be said? You can lead a pilot to the promised land but you can't make him think...

BTW...I've immortalized your quote below...I have to say that is a classic! Scope...It ain't your daddy's mouthwash...
 
G4dude said:
if I represent myself, and you represent yourself, then 100% of your and my choices are presented to the company. Much better than a union, in my opinion.
Click to expand...


You said it right here. This is the problem with your philosophy. and you are dumb enough to come on here and say this crap
 
"Yes. It seems small beer compared to how good the job is."

Does he really not understand that many of the things that make the job good for him cost the company money? They would cut those costs in a heartbeat if they could. If the majority were like G4, it would not be such a good job.
Helm (one of the 495)
 
Starting with the 401(k) match altogether, just like the company did with the non-union employees.
 
I have to admit, this is a lively conversation. Which is good. I would like to point out, in the US union membership is VERY low, especially among non government workers. The reason is, Americans don't like unions and their philosophy of envy and zero sum thinking and coercion and intimidation and groupthink.
 
fischman said:
Because you are being paid to be.
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+1

Someone is not getting their money's worth in my opinion.

He's going to have to "step up" the sophistication of his tactics if he hopes to convince a modicum of our membership to abandon our union.
 

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