NJA Downgrades

[be99fr8dog]

Coming soon to an NJA near you:

275 more furloughs.
410 Downgrades
XL, Encore, Ultra, BBJ, 400XP, 800XP all in disposal.

 

[CA1900]

Source?

How can there be 410 downgrades? The Excel, Encore Plus, X, Sovereign, and G200 would all have to go into disposal for that to happen.

 

[Grizz]

Great...more Ouija board prognostication. Just what we need.

Pray tell, oh wise sage - how do they downgrade 410 pilots when we have very junior Captains in the Encore+, G200 and Sovereign that aren't even listed in your master list of disposal aircraft?

A better use of your time might be reading the contract before you post nonsense.

 

[be99fr8dog]

Source is someone who very recently left management.

You are correct, all of those fleets will have to be in disposal, and very soon they all will be. Those are the ones that are currently in disposal. ICOM to follow.

 

[Grizz]

I must have missed the announcement of the XL being in disposal. Yeah, that's the ticket - I missed it.

Just putting an aircraft into disposal mode doesn't trigger the downgrade language. Once again, read the contract.

 

[CA1900]

Source is someone who very recently left management.

That doesn't really narrow it down these days...

 

[grounded92]

Playing with fire

BE99 that is a pretty specific projection.

I hope you can appreciate that there are many people trying to figure out what to do with their future with what they feel is insufficient information. I am trying to get my situation righted for myself, my wife and my three kids after my furlough.

While I hope your information is incorrect, I also hope that you are not so insensitive as to post such important information without 100% certainty you are right.

I can tell you all that I have been on FI for about a month and am completely disappointed with the quality of thought and depth of clarity this group of pilots has. I don't mean everybody, this is a general statement.

Union and non-union guys think the other is bad. Fractional vs. corporate. Cargo vs anybody that works in the daylight. Ect. Here is the simple truth. The pilot profession is losing ground in both pay and quality of life. While we point fingers and sneer at the different groups of pilots the folks in charge of payroll are quickly making us into long-haul drivers. No single group of pilots has a monopoly on talent, brains, luck or otherwise. It’s a shame we don't spend less time tearing each other apart.

 

[CALRepublic]

Coming soon to an NJA near you:

275 more furloughs.
410 Downgrades
XL, Encore, Ultra, BBJ, 400XP, 800XP all in disposal.

I assume you work for NJA, just out of curiosity what number are you on the seniority list???

this is exactly why I tell people at the bottom of anybody's seniority list not come to FI

 

[GSXR600]

BE99 that is a pretty specific projection.

I hope you can appreciate that there are many people trying to figure out what to do with their future with what they feel is insufficient information. I am trying to get my situation righted for myself, my wife and my three kids after my furlough.

While I hope your information is incorrect, I also hope that you are not so insensitive as to post such important information without 100% certainty you are right.

I can tell you all that I have been on FI for about a month and am completely disappointed with the quality of thought and depth of clarity this group of pilots has. I don't mean everybody, this is a general statement.

Union and non-union guys think the other is bad. Fractional vs. corporate. Cargo vs anybody that works in the daylight. Ect. Here is the simple truth. The pilot profession is losing ground in both pay and quality of life. While we point fingers and sneer at the different groups of pilots the folks in charge of payroll are quickly making us into long-haul drivers. No single group of pilots has a monopoly on talent, brains, luck or otherwise. It’s a shame we don't spend less time tearing each other apart.

Best post I've read!

 

[Pervis]

Sounds like another bitter individual spreading BS and wishing all find themselves miserable like he/she is. Both the thread starter and the "source", if indeed they are separate people.

 

[johnsonrod]

Does he mean that the older versions of the XL and 800XP would be leaving while the newer versions (i.e, XLS and 800XPC) would remain? I understand that this post could be complete BS. I just can't imagine such large fleets would be completely gutted.

 

[glasspilot]

I was in STL the other day and a NJ Capt was saying that exact number (275) for upcomming furloughs. I wasn't going to post on that alone, but now it seems backed up.

 

[fly4funcrj]

If this this true, can the ethics hotline be called on DS? Didn't he says baring any DOWNTURN in the economy, no further reductions would be necessary. Now the DOW is up and we are furloughing?

 

[Flex-ible]

I can tell you all that I have been on FI for about a month and am completely disappointed with the quality of thought and depth of clarity this group of pilots has. I don't mean everybody, this is a general statement.

Hey, you got this place figured out: one grain of truth hidden amongst a desert full of ......erroneous information......

But it does kill a couple hours a week......

 

[Pervis]

Does he mean that the older versions of the XL and 800XP would be leaving while the newer versions (i.e, XLS and 800XPC) would remain? I understand that this post could be complete BS. I just can't imagine such large fleets would be completely gutted.

As Griz pointed out, the XL is not in disposal. Someday it will be, just like every a/c that becomes obsolete. The XL fleet remains one of the busiest and most popular, and between the XL and XLS, we have over 100 airframes. Unlikely either a/c will be disposed of for some time.

Of the H800XP, only the Honeywell version is in disposal, and has been since before the economic meltdown. The BBJ never was successful, and the 400XP is too restricted in so many ways. Encore line was a short lived Cessna product, and the Ultra is getting old. Whatever the situation, any a/c in disposal takes time. After market prices would plummet if we dumped a lot of airframes on the market at one time. That would be bad for us and the OEMs.

IMHO, no doubt we are consolidating and eliminating inefficienct and aging fleets. Five small cabin types is silly. Unlimited growth in the past prompted the purchase of whatever was available in numbers quickly, with little regard to productivity. Long term planning will hopefully lead to improved efficiency and utilization.

The last several tours, I have flown and heard lots of "Papa" suffixes on NJA callsigns. This means temp registration which means sales are improving. Company message traffic confirms this observation. While there are no guarantees, and a double dip could indeed prompt more cuts, don't believe trolls like this who obviously have an axe to grind.

 

[Pervis]

I was in STL the other day and a NJ Capt was saying that exact number (275) for upcomming furloughs. I wasn't going to post on that alone, but now it seems backed up.

I heard Linus found a friend who also believes in the great pumpkin. That must make it true. The thread starter has at least found success in getting attention. I'll bet those on the bottom find comfort in posters like this.

 

[Jack Campbell]

Pervis, while I agree with most of what you said, I disagree with your assertion that "Papa" callsigns only mean shares were sold. Don't they use that callsign any time owners change on a tail? Such as, when an owner sells his share, or upgrades and no longer owns that tail, a new registration is generated and along with it, the "Papa" callsign?
As to the main subject of this thread, I would not be surprised with any news to come out of NJA until the economy is solidly in recovery. The only thing that would surprise me right now is a recall notice.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Nicely said Pervis and accurate from where I sit.

 

[Pervis]

Jack, you are correct. However, I have noticed a significant increase, along with positive news from company. During the period of greatest losses and buy-backs last year, we didn't hear near this many Papa call signs.

I too would be suprised if any recalls were announced in the near term. I believe the catalyst for recalls will exceed the current increase in OT, fatigue calls, after midnights, and ferry flights to get crews home in a feeble attempt to reduce said after midnights. When we approach sell off limits and costs, then we will recall. Again, that's just my opinion. Sales will need to increase substantially before that happens. It will happen. The only question is when?

 

[RJ Bum]

Papa call signs is not a very accurate indication since they can be a result of owners downgrading. But I'm not saying I dont believe you Pervis

 

[jtf]

The company is also trying to consolidate owners into airplanes that aren't fully owned and get them out of the airplanes that only have a couple or few owners left since they can't sell off the airframes that they want to get rid of until all the owners are off the certificates.

I don't see all those downgrades and furloughs happening without a double dip recession. While that may make sense from the number cruncher's point of view, the ill-will that would bring to the pilot group would more than negate the supposed "savings" with all the sell offs and broken airplanes and fatigue calls that would result from this. I think the group would accept it and keep working hard if they saw the actual double dip, but without it it will be fugly out there if this were to happen.

 

[ArtVandalay]

I love how someone makes a statement on here and then immediately a response from someone else saying, "source?" Like that person is going to actually say who it was that told him.

 

[jonjuan]

The company is also trying to consolidate owners into airplanes that aren't fully owned and get them out of the airplanes that only have a couple or few owners left since they can't sell off the airframes that they want to get rid of until all the owners are off the certificates.

Bingo. Exactly what's driving the papa, not new sales.

I don't see all those downgrades and furloughs happening without a double dip recession. While that may make sense from the number cruncher's point of view, the ill-will that would bring to the pilot group would more than negate the supposed "savings" with all the sell offs and broken airplanes and fatigue calls that would result from this. I think the group would accept it and keep working hard if they saw the actual double dip, but without it it will be fugly out there if this were to happen.

When the other fracs downgraded and laid off due to the economy, was there an increase in broken planes and f calls leading to increased sell offs? Remember, mgmt is there to cut costs in any way shape or form.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bingo. Exactly what's driving the papa, not new sales.

Except, year-to-date shares sold exceed year-to-date share redemptions. Some of the pink registrations are consolidations of owners in order to dispose of excess airframes but sales are ticking up slightly.

 

[Pervis]

I love how someone makes a statement on here and then immediately a response from someone else saying, "source?" Like that person is going to actually say who it was that told him.

When someone quotes a source that may affect the lives of hundreds, I believe he is obligated to provide that source. If they aren't ready to provide proof, they should keep their mouth shut. There is enough turmoil ongoing, don't you think?

 

[DAS at 10/250]

When someone quotes a source that may affect the lives of hundreds, I believe he is obligated to provide that source. If they aren't ready to provide proof, they should keep their mouth shut. There is enough turmoil ongoing, don't you think?

Dude, this is FI.com. Not a reputable news outlet.

 

[Pervis]

Yea DAS, it's a shame internet bravado lets people forget common decency. Or does it let people really show their true colors? Too bad real names aren't required.

 

[gret]

Except, year-to-date shares sold exceed year-to-date share redemptions. Some of the pink registrations are consolidations of owners in order to dispose of excess airframes but sales are ticking up slightly.

Are you certain about this? The latest UBS report that I've seen has the redemptions slowing, but there are still more people leaving than coming.

I could have old info.

 

[jonjuan]

Yes DAS, it's a shame that some can come on here and provide false hope based on management proclamations.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Are you certain about this? The latest UBS report that I've seen has the redemptions slowing, but there are still more people leaving than coming.

I could have old info.

Positive.