NICE Job Continental Airlines

[astroglider]

So if we back it up a bit...the Captain and dispatcher again are to blame for getting into the situation. The Dispatcher and the Captain should not have decided on Rochester. No staff, maybe no weather reporting (not sure never been there).

I guess what to do once they got there is debatable and a mute point. They should not have landed at a field with no ground support period.

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it. Unless of course Mesaba was on contract to support ExpressJet in situations like this...

Astro

 

[vtwo]

So if we back it up a bit...the Captain and dispatcher again are to blame for getting into the situation. The Dispatcher and the Captain should not have decided on Rochester. No staff, maybe no weather reporting (not sure never been there).

I guess what to do once they got there is debatable and a mute point. They should not have landed at a field with no ground support period.

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it. Unless of course Mesaba was on contract to support ExpressJet in situations like this...

Astro

BOTTOM LINE

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES IS AT FAULT.
they ultimately choose to subcontract THEIR Passengers to another airline whom failed to deliver.
Why Is the question?.
Maybe if ExpressJet would have had Signature Flight Support as a Subcontractor, Signature would have Grey Hound Bus as a SubContractor, we could then Blame the Bus drivers Union.

Come on! look at the big picture.
The more this Crap is sub'd out the farther from Blame the Original Airline who HAD the responsibility to THEIR PASSNGERS is.
THEY sold THEIR tickets on THEIR web site, advertising THEIR service for Carriage.
Now who is to blame?
While the Peon's argure the CEO'S could care less.

 

[astroglider]

Yep just like ValueJet...so much subcontracting there is little accountability...

 

[Flopgut]

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it.

CAL/Expressjet didn't blame Mesaba. The Sec of Transportation did!!

But I guess some poster who goes by "Astroglider" on FI.com ranks higher than him?!

So I guess it's a MOOT point!?

 

[astroglider]

CAL/Expressjet didn't blame Mesaba. The Sec of Transportation did!!

But I guess some poster who goes by "Astroglider" on FI.com ranks higher than him?!

So I guess it's a MOOT point!?

Mute point was an attempt at pilot humor...

Not sure what you mean by Astroglider ranking high than the Sec. of Transportation...WTF... The CAL PR guy certainly did blame Delta...and he got a response from DAL's CEO Richard Anderson.

Astroglider...Astro for short

 

[Flopgut]

Look Astro: This crew could have made a precautionary landing, off airport next to a Flying J truck stop on I-35 and recieved more aid than they did at this AIRPORT. Yeah, 6 hours is a longtime to sit on a plane, but in this day and age the f-ing airport mgr can get off his/her fat a$$ and beat a path to the airport and take care of a flight. Or Mesaba, in this case. Somebody has got to be tending these airports that can take care of a commercial flight. Or, if they don't want to, they can stop taking federal funds.

At what point does it become apparant to you that someone else had a role to play other than the PIC? We've discussed all manner of crazy theories about how to take care of the customers but almost no one has suggested we hold the person responsible accountable, except the US Sec of Trans, and you don't want to listen to him.

 

[astroglider]

You are wrong about me Flopgut....I completely agree the station manager was an A$$ and he should be held accountable. Absolutely his fault...we never would have had this situation if it wasn't for him. But the Captain is also at fault for not attempting to physically get of the airplane and assist his pax in doing the same.

My point is and has been...if you are the Captain...and you find yourself in this situation...what would YOU do? Just sit in the airplane for seven hours? To my amazement some might...and I'll admit that attitude just floors me.

Astro

 

[glasspilot]

What if they landed on a country road or some massive parking lot? Would the people still be locked on board for 8 hours because there weren't any station people there?

It seems absurd that they land at an AIRPORT and are unable to figure out how to deplane. I could figure out how to deplane at a totally abandoned air strip with nothing for miles except a lone self serve gas pump.

This flight couldn't figure it out in ROCHESTER.

 

[Flopgut]

Did you get a look at the thunderstorms that night?

My bottom line is safety. If customers' comfort takes a back seat to that on 7 hours out of 5 million (which I think is what Expressjet is up to now as far as incident/accident free) then so be it.

 

[glasspilot]

Thunderstorms do not explain being trapped in an RON RJ. They explain the initial divert, maybe explain a half hour to an hour on a ramp with lightning in the vicinity.

They do not explain an 8 hour overnight. Nobody said pax comfort comes after safety. But somebody should have figured a safe way to get the pax off the freaking plane.

Why are you guys defending this? Really?

 

[Flopgut]

What we have too many of in aviation right now is two kinds of people: The kind that think aviation would be better if it weren't for all the airplanes (for example the kind of people running this airport), and the second is the kind of people who will second guess anything a flight crew/airline does. It's really dispicable.

When you talk about the size of the airplane and responsibility make sure you're seeing the arguement both ways. What if this were a heavy airplane with 300+ customers? You keep them on the plane or you're going to hurt a lot of people.

This Expressjet Captain is ready to fly big planes IMHO. Astro and Glasspilot, I'd worry about you two.

 

[glasspilot]

Does IMHO stand for "I Might Have nOidea"?

She's ready for the "big iron" you say? Based on this stellar example of superior Captainship? Great.

She could have ordered a bee keeper to deliver a swarm during the overnight and you'd criticize me for suggesting that might have been a bad idea. "She's the Captain! There are two types...those that respect the Captain and those that aren't ready for big planes...IMHO"

whatever...I've flown little CRJ's and 727's and I've never forced my pax spend the night on board. Guess I'm not cut from the right cloth. Oh well.

 

[Flopgut]

Crew, customers and aircraft were safe and secure. Could things have gone better? Yep! But they could have also gone worse.

Have you ever supervised pilots? Just curious.

 

[waka]

Glasspilot: I stand by my comments on de-reg, and that I don't believe an airliner can just show up at an FBO. You and I know your asking for an injury and compromising safety and as uncomfortable as those customers were, they weren't in harms way.

In this case, reality and what you "don't believe" are completely different things. Yes, an airliner can just show up at an FBO. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't. A quick call on the radio would have easily solved the problem.

 

[astroglider]

Flopgut said:
"When you talk about the size of the airplane and responsibility make sure you're seeing the arguement both ways. What if this were a heavy airplane with 300+ customers? You keep them on the plane or you're going to hurt a lot of people."

"This Expressjet Captain is ready to fly big planes IMHO. Astro and Glasspilot, I'd worry about you two."


Wow Flopgut...after watching folks board and deplane using an airstairs many times over the last couple of decades on the 727, L1011, 737, 757/767...as well as many smaller aircraft I have yet to see anyone injured on an airstair.

Flopgut tell us how we are going to hurt a lot of people by deplaning them on an airstair?

...and why should we see the arguement both ways as you say? This wasn't a 300+ airliner, so why even bring that up. Had it been a 747 and there was no airstair available then sure...keep the folks onboard...you'd certainly NOT want to blow the slides...is that what you were thinking? In that case keep the folks onboard. IN THIS CASE there was an airstair available...it would have been safe to use it. Therefore common sense would dictate you deplane the aircraft not JUST SIT THERE FOR SEVEN HOURS, without food, without water!

How you defend the Captain's decision to just sit there for seven hours blows me away!!! Use some common sense here, holy cow!

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO HAVE A PASSENGER BILL OF RIGHTS???? IF we act like Flopgut and Phrog4ever and that's what we'll have. Don't you think we have enough government regulation already???

Astro

 

[Flopgut]

In this case, reality and what you "don't believe" are completely different things. Yes, an airliner can just show up at an FBO. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't. A quick call on the radio would have easily solved the problem.

Can you do it safely? No. Not safe enough. And if you do, where do they go then? You let them out of the plane in that scenario and you'll have them scattered all over the ramp. You'll have one walk into a moving prop, get run over by a tug, or walk out onto the runway. Bad will go to worse real quick. I realize that Expressjet operates these same type aircraft in a charter scenario and they understand FBOs, but this was different. There is no telling what these customers would have done. The instant their feet hit the concrete the camera phones will be on and in the crew's faces, the screaming will start, some a$$hole will try to open the cargo, another will put their face into a static wick, they'd be calling CNN, etc, etc. Hey, maybe the customers would have been perfectly mannered and maybe they park at FBOs in their Barons ten times a month, but you can't give customers the benefit of the doubt. Not these days. They haven't earned it.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut said:
"When you talk about the size of the airplane and responsibility make sure you're seeing the arguement both ways. What if this were a heavy airplane with 300+ customers? You keep them on the plane or you're going to hurt a lot of people."

"This Expressjet Captain is ready to fly big planes IMHO. Astro and Glasspilot, I'd worry about you two."


Wow Flopgut...after watching folks board and deplane using an airstairs many times over the last couple of decades on the 727, L1011, 737, 757/767...as well as many smaller aircraft I have yet to see anyone injured on an airstair.

Flopgut tell us how we are going to hurt a lot of people by deplaning them on an airstair?

...and why should we see the arguement both ways as you say? This wasn't a 300+ airliner, so why even bring that up. Had it been a 747 and there was no airstair available then sure...keep the folks onboard...you'd certainly NOT want to blow the slides...is that what you were thinking? In that case keep the folks onboard. IN THIS CASE there was an airstair available...it would have been safe to use it. Therefore common sense would dictate you deplane the aircraft not JUST SIT THERE FOR SEVEN HOURS, without food, without water!

How you defend the Captain's decision to just sit there for seven hours blows me away!!! Use some common sense here, holy cow!

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO HAVE A PASSENGER BILL OF RIGHTS???? IF we act like Flopgut and Phrog4ever and that's what we'll have. Don't you think we have enough government regulation already???

Astro

The larger truth here is that safety prevailed. In irregular ops customers ought to be able to stand being a little uncomfortable. Tough decision to divert to this airport and certainly a tough decision to keep them on board. There would be plenty of harsh critique going on no matter what they did. But there was no damage and no injuries. This issue got full, complete and immediate attention right away from the very highest authorities and they pegged the blame on someone other than the operator and the crew. You should not want to miss an opportunity to applaud that. That's a huge plus for all of us that do this and, in fact a credit to airlines in a possible passenger bill of rights effort. We [airlines] more often than not are blamed for EVERYTHING and in this case customers learn there are more parties in the equation than just the airline and the crew.

 

[Flopgut]

Wow Flopgut...after watching folks board and deplane using an airstairs many times over the last couple of decades on the 727, L1011, 737, 757/767...as well as many smaller aircraft I have yet to see anyone injured on an airstair.

Flopgut tell us how we are going to hurt a lot of people by deplaning them on an airstair?


Astro

I've seen a lot of injuries. Lot's of unsafe scenarios.

One broken bone in this goatrope and the whole thing would have been the airline/captain's fault in a completely new way. There would be no emphasis on learning why the airport wasn't functioning or how to prevent this from happening again. There would instead be 40+ lawsuits, injuries more than likely, and a crew with ruined futures. Is that what you would have preferred to see here? Is that really why you're upset? You wanted to see that sort of thing? I hope not.

 

[Britpilot]

I've seen a lot of injuries. Lot's of unsafe scenarios.

One broken bone in this goatrope and the whole thing would have been the airline/captain's fault in a completely new way. There would be no emphasis on learning why the airport wasn't functioning or how to prevent this from happening again. There would instead be 40+ lawsuits, injuries more than likely, and a crew with ruined futures. Is that what you would have preferred to see here? Is that really why you're upset? You wanted to see that sort of thing? I hope not.

It could have been done very easily and safely. XJT uses stairs and hardstands all the time in IAH with no problem at all, been doing that for years. All that was required was some coordination with the FBO folks and the three crew members, easy.
You are coming across as a drama queen, why would there be 40 law suits and broken bones, people walking into props? FBO personal are used to ramp safety, it's their job. For the record, I have unloaded 50 PAX at an FBO in the past at an off line airport and guess what, no injuries or law suits, just folks happy to be off the airplane.

 

[Flopgut]

It could have been done very easily and safely. XJT uses stairs and hardstands all the time in IAH with no problem at all, been doing that for years. All that was required was some coordination with the FBO folks and the three crew members, easy.
You are coming across as a drama queen, why would there be 40 law suits and broken bones, people walking into props? FBO personal are used to ramp safety, it's their job. For the record, I have unloaded 50 PAX at an FBO in the past at an off line airport and guess what, no injuries or law suits, just folks happy to be off the airplane.

Well that's great that it worked out for you, and I realize Expressjet charter uses FBOs and that many times things go normal. So why didn't they do that this time? I'm inclined to side with the crew's decisions. Must have been some lack of willingness on the part of the FBO.

Most importantly guys, oversight has firmly laid blame with someone other than the airline and the crew!! That's a good thing for all of us.