NICE Job Continental Airlines

[Instigator]

They're off the airplane. Now what?

 

[astroglider]

Instigator said, "They're off the airplane. Now what?"

Amazing statement. Do you really fly for a living?

Um make them as comfortable as possible in the terminal or FBO. Pax are still the Captain's responsibility...order take-out, whatever it takes. It certainly is better than remaining on-board.

Astroglider

 

[Phrogs4ever]

I'll say it again Phrog, your kind of thinking gets people killed. You're the guy that would fail to act in time to prevent a tragidy because you were too busy worrying about what the "book" says. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time. Some situations require you to think "outside" the box/book.

So to answer your question:

After discussing the situation with my company I would then tell the station manager I am calling CNN, FoxNews etc if no airstair showed up within 20-30 minutes. Making the arguement that this has happened before...let's get the folks off the plane or there will be some bad press.

If he refused....
Then I would have gotten off the airplane. Faced with staying in the airplane all night I'm pretty sure most Captain's would have climbed down out of the airplane. If the station manager calls the police, what are they going to do arrest you. No one has broken a law or reg. until you try to depart.

1. Plead face to face with the ramp crew.

2. Drive an "approved" airstair up to the aircraft yourself if you have to...

3. Call the police if anyone tries to stop you...using the arguement that any interference with a crewmembers duty is a Federal Offense.

Bottom line: I would not sit there all night long like a prisoner. I would have tried done something.

This is obviously going way over your head so this I'll keep this simple.

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Once again, your hysterics wreak of lack of judgement and experience. For the last time, the Captain's decision requires support. If there is an emergency, declare it. And I still want to know how I get people killed.

In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations. To date, I have done well. You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

 

[astroglider]

Phrogs4ever:

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

One example of many...You're thinking like the two Captains on the Swissair MD-11 that burned then crashed. Instead of landing immediately...they were too busy trying to burn off fuel so they wouldn't land overweight...My point here is they blindly followed the "book" instead looking at the big picture. They had airports within a short distance in which they could have landed but they turned out to sea.

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

Sure...face to face contact might help. Then if that does not work I'd take matters into my own hands.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

Yep that's my plan, thanks. I'm not abandoning the pax btw...the F/O and F/A would be with them while I help enable their deplaning.

I spent enough time working the ramp at an FBO and in airline ops to operate a airstair...not that hard. Most airstairs btw aren't motorized. You push them up to the airplane...but I guess you'd watched enlisted folks do that instead...wouldn't want to get YOUR hands dirty. btw I worked the USAF ramp too...we had airstairs you pushed up to the aircraft, and of course the latters we hung on the F-4's.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Whatever dude...your at a small town FBO. Common sense trumps whatever rules are thrown up against you by a PIG HEADED station manager from ANOTHER AIRLINE! The entire traveling public, news organizations, most airline managers and most airline employees are on my side too. Someone tries to arrest you, fine, all you have to do is talk to the news outlets. You're doing what 99% of folks know to be the right thing. No way you're going to get in trouble for that.


In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations.

Apparently not...

You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

So Phrogs you would have just sat there maturally for the entire night, in the airplane making your pax suffer?
....I wouldn't call that mature...I'd call it Stupid...

Astro
ps. Phrogs4ever are you a USAFA grad? Just curious.

 

[Hutchman]

Just a few facts:

Last flight out of Rochester 6:10pm

Terminal was closed, lights out no one home, all locked up

Ground, Tower, Approach control- Closed at 11pm

Manager called at home by dispatcher

Passengers let off plane when the normal ops/ramp showed up for the morning flight.

---------------------

For those who want to declare an emergency, you would have to call Center. I am not too sure what they could do for you since you are safely on the ground.

It is easy to Monday morning QB. Options were limited. I can assure you neither of the pilots had ever been to Rochester and most likely never will again. The investigation does not blame the pilots. Investigations normally Always find blame with the pilots.

While the situation was far from ideal, the pilots did not have any good options with the airport manager and dispatch no helping. Fire the dispatcher and time for a new airport manager.

 

[astroglider]

So if we back it up a bit...the Captain and dispatcher again are to blame for getting into the situation. The Dispatcher and the Captain should not have decided on Rochester. No staff, maybe no weather reporting (not sure never been there).

I guess what to do once they got there is debatable and a mute point. They should not have landed at a field with no ground support period.

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it. Unless of course Mesaba was on contract to support ExpressJet in situations like this...

Astro

 

[vtwo]

So if we back it up a bit...the Captain and dispatcher again are to blame for getting into the situation. The Dispatcher and the Captain should not have decided on Rochester. No staff, maybe no weather reporting (not sure never been there).

I guess what to do once they got there is debatable and a mute point. They should not have landed at a field with no ground support period.

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it. Unless of course Mesaba was on contract to support ExpressJet in situations like this...

Astro

BOTTOM LINE

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES IS AT FAULT.
they ultimately choose to subcontract THEIR Passengers to another airline whom failed to deliver.
Why Is the question?.
Maybe if ExpressJet would have had Signature Flight Support as a Subcontractor, Signature would have Grey Hound Bus as a SubContractor, we could then Blame the Bus drivers Union.

Come on! look at the big picture.
The more this Crap is sub'd out the farther from Blame the Original Airline who HAD the responsibility to THEIR PASSNGERS is.
THEY sold THEIR tickets on THEIR web site, advertising THEIR service for Carriage.
Now who is to blame?
While the Peon's argure the CEO'S could care less.

 

[astroglider]

Yep just like ValueJet...so much subcontracting there is little accountability...

 

[Flopgut]

Continental/ExpressJet blaming Mesaba/Northwest/Delta just doesn't cut it.

CAL/Expressjet didn't blame Mesaba. The Sec of Transportation did!!

But I guess some poster who goes by "Astroglider" on FI.com ranks higher than him?!

So I guess it's a MOOT point!?

 

[astroglider]

CAL/Expressjet didn't blame Mesaba. The Sec of Transportation did!!

But I guess some poster who goes by "Astroglider" on FI.com ranks higher than him?!

So I guess it's a MOOT point!?

Mute point was an attempt at pilot humor...

Not sure what you mean by Astroglider ranking high than the Sec. of Transportation...WTF... The CAL PR guy certainly did blame Delta...and he got a response from DAL's CEO Richard Anderson.

Astroglider...Astro for short

 

[Flopgut]

Look Astro: This crew could have made a precautionary landing, off airport next to a Flying J truck stop on I-35 and recieved more aid than they did at this AIRPORT. Yeah, 6 hours is a longtime to sit on a plane, but in this day and age the f-ing airport mgr can get off his/her fat a$$ and beat a path to the airport and take care of a flight. Or Mesaba, in this case. Somebody has got to be tending these airports that can take care of a commercial flight. Or, if they don't want to, they can stop taking federal funds.

At what point does it become apparant to you that someone else had a role to play other than the PIC? We've discussed all manner of crazy theories about how to take care of the customers but almost no one has suggested we hold the person responsible accountable, except the US Sec of Trans, and you don't want to listen to him.

 

[astroglider]

You are wrong about me Flopgut....I completely agree the station manager was an A$$ and he should be held accountable. Absolutely his fault...we never would have had this situation if it wasn't for him. But the Captain is also at fault for not attempting to physically get of the airplane and assist his pax in doing the same.

My point is and has been...if you are the Captain...and you find yourself in this situation...what would YOU do? Just sit in the airplane for seven hours? To my amazement some might...and I'll admit that attitude just floors me.

Astro

 

[glasspilot]

What if they landed on a country road or some massive parking lot? Would the people still be locked on board for 8 hours because there weren't any station people there?

It seems absurd that they land at an AIRPORT and are unable to figure out how to deplane. I could figure out how to deplane at a totally abandoned air strip with nothing for miles except a lone self serve gas pump.

This flight couldn't figure it out in ROCHESTER.

 

[Flopgut]

Did you get a look at the thunderstorms that night?

My bottom line is safety. If customers' comfort takes a back seat to that on 7 hours out of 5 million (which I think is what Expressjet is up to now as far as incident/accident free) then so be it.

 

[glasspilot]

Thunderstorms do not explain being trapped in an RON RJ. They explain the initial divert, maybe explain a half hour to an hour on a ramp with lightning in the vicinity.

They do not explain an 8 hour overnight. Nobody said pax comfort comes after safety. But somebody should have figured a safe way to get the pax off the freaking plane.

Why are you guys defending this? Really?