NICE Job Continental Airlines

[Captainzero1]

The capt was responsible for this debacle period.

 

[glasspilot]

What the Industry Ceo's have figured out is that Competition is good,
as long as you control ALL the players, all of the revenue all of the assets. Keep them fighting and bidding among them self's

And that's a strong argument to why this is CAL fault. They (along with all the majors) set up the system of getting all the regionals to under bid and under cut each other to get the table scraps.

If you set up the system where it's a race to the bottom then you are responsible when the dogs fighting for scraps hit bottom. This affected CAL's passengers and CAL is to blame for crating the environment.

That said the PIC, Dispatcher, CP's office, training dept, CEO, COO, DO, and every middle manager in between should be keel hauled.

 

[WarnerNo13]

That said the PIC, Dispatcher, CP's office, training dept, CEO, COO, DO, and every middle manager in between should be keel hauled.

I agree that fault lies with multiple parties in this situation. For a flight this late at night with bad weather looming, a paper alternate is not an option. It's flight operations' duty to know before the flight is released, is this a viable alternate? Who services the airport? Are there stairs, food, security, fuel, and in international cases, la migra? If the answer is no to any of these find another alternate where all your bases are covered, and contact that station to let them know they are the alternate. That's how we've always done it everywhere I've worked.

That being said, in the end the captain did have emergency authority and should've exercised it. Flight ops may have been telling him/her to keep them on the plane all night but common sense tells anyone that keeping the pax in a sardine can 'til daybreak is a deal breaker.

 

[CaptJax]

Pilot Pleaded To Evacuate Paxs

Pilot Pleaded to Evacuate Passengers
Transportation Secretary Blames Mesaba Airlines for Ordeal
By JOAN LOWY

WASHINGTON (Aug. 21) -- The pilot of an airliner stranded overnight on an airport tarmac in Minnesota pleaded unsuccessfully for her 47 passengers to be allowed to get off and go inside a terminal. "We just need to work out some way to get them off ... We can't keep them here any longer," she said.

The Transportation Department on Friday released recordings of the repeated appeals by the pilot and her airline's dispatchers earlier this month while passengers were kept waiting for about six hours in the cramped plane amid crying babies and a smelly toilet before they were allowed to deplane.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said an investigation by his department found that u 22816 for Continental Airlines, wasn't at fault in the tarmac stranding.

The U.S. Department of Transportation cleared ExpressJet, a regional carrier, of any wrongdoing for a Continental Express flight that became an ordeal for passengers who were stranded overnight on the plane. The blame, the department said, rested with Mesaba Airlines, which wouldn't let the passengers deplane.

Instead, blame for the incident, which has revived calls for greater consumer protections for airline passengers, belongs with Mesaba Airlines, whose representative declined to let the ExpressJet passengers deplane, LaHood said in a statement.

A Mesaba representative incorrectly told ExpressJet that the passengers couldn't be allowed inside the terminal because Transportation Security Administration personnel had left for the day, LaHood said.

Actually, security regulations allow for deplaning passengers to be kept in a separate "sterile" area until they are ready to board, he said.
"We have determined that the Express Jet crew was not at fault. In fact, the flight crew repeatedly tried to get permission to deplane the passengers at the airport or obtain a bus for them," LaHood said.
"There was a complete lack of common sense here," the secretary added. "It's no wonder the flying public is so angry and frustrated."
Mesaba was the only airline with staff still at the airport that Friday night.

The plane left Houston at 9:23 p.m. local time on Aug. 7, but was diverted by thunderstorms to Rochester. Passengers were kept waiting on the tarmac only 50 yards from a terminal. In the morning, they were allowed to deplane. They spent about 2 1/2 hours inside the terminal before reboarding the same plane. They arrived in Minneapolis, their destination, after 11 a.m. CDT.

Mesaba is a subsidiary of Northwest Airlines, which is a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines. A Delta spokeswoman didn't immediately return a phone message seeking comment.

Continental Chairman and CEO Larry Kellner said in a statement that he was gratified the Transportation Department recognized the ExpressJet crew's efforts to resolve the situation.

The department released audio tapes of the captain explaining the situation to an ExpressJet dispatcher, and dispatchers trying to persuade Mesaba officials to allow passengers inside. Passengers from an earlier flight diverted to Rochester had been allowed to deplane and were taken by bus to Minneapolis, about 85 miles away.

However, Mesaba officials said there were no more buses available.
"I can't get her a bus, I can't do anything," said a Mesaba representative.
"You can't do anything for her? OK," asked the ExpressJet dispatcher.
"No."
"Because she was saying nobody was letting her off the airplane, letting the people off the airplane and all that," the dispatcher continued.
"We can't — I mean we were just able to let these guys off. We can't get them a bus. If I can't secure them a bus, I can't have them in a closed airport," the Mesaba representative replied.

Link Christin, who was on the flight, said the incident was a clear example of why more safeguards are necessary for passengers.
"To me, the critical issue is not who's to blame, but to figure out what happened and how it could be prevented in the future," said Christin, a lecturer at William Mitchell College of Law.

More than a week afterward, Christin said he's started to think about "the fact that so many variables were at play with 47, 48 people, two babies, and the variety of potential catastrophes that could have happened."
"In reflection, I think it's even a more serious matter than I perceived it to be when I was going through it," he said.

Associated Press Writers Nomaan Merchant in Minneapolis contributed to this report.

 

[jmreii]

I blame the dispatchers for not diverting this aircraft to an alternate with continental/express jet facilities with personnel waiting for this aircraft to arrive safely at the gate and in the terminal. continental/express jet shall alone accept all the blame for this nightmare cause by freaking morons who don't know their rearend from a hole in the ground.

I need to go fire somebody today so I will feel better!

 

[jonjuan]

This is the fault of the CA. If they would not let them out at the terminal, have them push you back, and take them to the FBO. Have them get cabs and pick them up at the terminal the next morning.

I have done this before. Yes, you have to do the carpet dance, but guess what, it is better than making people sleep in a jet for nine hrs.

Whoops-looks like someone mouthed off a little early.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Yeah, I think you mean, NICE Job Mesaba Airlines...

cliff
NBO

 

[WarnerNo13]

However, Mesaba officials said there were no more buses available.
"I can't get her a bus, I can't do anything," said a Mesaba representative.
"You can't do anything for her? OK," asked the ExpressJet dispatcher.
"No."
"Because she was saying nobody was letting her off the airplane, letting the people off the airplane and all that," the dispatcher continued.
"We can't — I mean we were just able to let these guys off. We can't get them a bus. If I can't secure them a bus, I can't have them in a closed airport," the Mesaba representative replied.

I agree from my previous post that the alternate selected by the planning dispatcher was sketchy considering the circumstances. With late night flights there aren't coach buses just sitting around waiting for an airline to call. That happens. After this exchange with Mesaba, the dispatcher should've taken it to the next level and contacted the airport manager, or anyone who could straighten Mesaba out, whatever it took to get the pax off the plane into a sterile area. In addition they should've continued working with the Cap'n to formulate some sort of solution, and never accepted a decision to just leave the pax on the plane. I think the pax would've been happy sitting on the plane hearing over the PA that the Cap'n and flight ops will continue to find a way to get them off the plane.

That being said, I think the pax were well compensated by getting a FULL refund PLUS a $200 voucher PLUS a $50 card for whatever. If I get bad service and a bad meal at a restaurant the managers comps my meal and gives me some free food later. I don't expect a free prime rib dinner for life.

 

[CA1900]

Voucher, my ass. $200 in cash. The last thing I'd want after that is another chance to fly with the same airline!

 

[IXLR8]

I have read several posts blaming the dispatcher for a bad choice of an alternate. If it was so bad. Why did the Captain sign the release? Maybe the wx at the time of the release wasn't that bad, and didn't call for another alternate other than RST?

 

[WarnerNo13]

I have read several posts blaming the dispatcher for a bad choice of an alternate. If it was so bad. Why did the Captain sign the release?

The pilots don't have the resources or the time, as dispatchers and flight ops managers do to inspect who will be there, what options are available, etc, etc. I believe he is fine signing the release if the alternate is a legal, approved alternate, and the weather is above alternate minimums. At the same time in this specific situation it doesn't hurt to ask the dispatcher if the alternate will be a viable one to handle the pax in case of a diversion late at night.

 

[WarnerNo13]

Voucher, my ass. $200 in cash. The last thing I'd want after that is another chance to fly with the same airline!

I somewhat agree here. They did get all their cash back for the flight. Maybe an option to take the voucher or the cash. Some might still be willing to see it as a rare situation and keep flying with them for convenience.

 

[Flopgut]

Voucher, my ass. $200 in cash. The last thing I'd want after that is another chance to fly with the same airline!

I think it would be cool if you and few other NJA guys would just stay off CAL all together. Tell your customers if your position flight requires you to ride on CAL, their flight on the bizjet is a no-go. Or, tell them your position flight has to come out of their hours because your too special for certain airlines. See how that goes.

Read the article. CAL put quite a bit of money on the table for this not being their fault. Scale the economies of the two operations and I bet this is a lot more money than NJA gives back for something that isn't proved to be their fault.

 

[glasspilot]

Scale the economies of the two operations and I bet this is a lot more money than NJA gives back for something that isn't proved to be their fault.

You would be wrong sir. I've seen flight hours credited because there wasn't any sugar on board, or we didn't have diet Coke (had diet Pepsi but owner wanted Coke products). The fractionals spare no expense to make the customer happy.

Why didn't the Captain just go over to the FBO and deplane? Sure they would have had to go back through security...but so what? Like I said before, everybody involved should be keel hauled.

 

[GogglesPisano]

That being said, I think the pax were well compensated by getting a FULL refund PLUS a $200 voucher PLUS a $50 card for whatever. If I get bad service and a bad meal at a restaurant the managers comps my meal and gives me some free food later. I don't expect a free prime rib dinner for life.

How many restaurants lock customers inside overnight with overflowing toilets?

 

[Flopgut]

You would be wrong sir. I've seen flight hours credited because there wasn't any sugar on board, or we didn't have diet Coke (had diet Pepsi but owner wanted Coke products).

Ten grand an hour and you don't have sugar? That sounds like it was your fault. If they wanted Coke products it's probably because they are largely invested in Coke, not because of the taste.

CAL/Expressjet have been absolved here.

 

[Ex737Driver]

......Why didn't the Captain just go over to the FBO and deplane? Sure they would have had to go back through security...but so what? Like I said before, everybody involved should be keel hauled.

Ahhhhhhhh, the armchair QB's here are quite refreshing. I'm thinking you might want to call Babbit and give him the oportunity to unleash your vast knowledge and background experience so that the FAA, NTSB, and the entire US national airspace system can run like a well oiled machine.

 

[Ex737Driver]

How many restaurants lock customers inside overnight with overflowing toilets?

How many restaurants go 500 MPH, operate at 37000 ft and have been used as flying missles?

 

[NJAPLT]

There needs to be a minimum level of passenger rights that any airline flying stopping in the U.S. should follow. These should be either Federal Law, or Federal Air Regulations, to ensure compliance.

This would help both airlines and flight crews know what the minimum level of service & safety the airlines must provide at all times.

A passenger bill of rights would also provide cover for the airline pilots who work for "less than stellar" carriers (as I have in the past), as a pilot cannot violate regulations or federal law no matter what airline management wants them to do.

This is a systemic problem across all the airlines in my view, every one (regionals and majors) has had incidents of overflowing lavs, long delays, and passengers who have been refused the basic right to depart an airplane that is still on the ground after hours of delay.

This should be a good thing for all of us, as pilots are some of the most "frequent flyers" while deadheading to, from or during work.

Lets hope this incident finally forces congress & the FAA to act.

 

[Captzaahlie]

This is the fault of the CA. If they would not let them out at the terminal, have them push you back, and take them to the FBO. Have them get cabs and pick them up at the terminal the next morning.

I have done this before. Yes, you have to do the carpet dance, but guess what, it is better than making people sleep in a jet for nine hrs.

Great suggestion!

If not the perfect threat to get some action....

 

[IXLR8]

. At the same time in this specific situation it doesn't hurt to ask the dispatcher if the alternate will be a viable one to handle the pax in case of a diversion late at night.

I agree with you, however what you said above is part of being a viable alternate. It sounds like the Mesaba agent dropped the ball. Too bad for the passengers. What a terrible situation to be a part of.

 

[Flopgut]

Regarding the FBO: The 145 needs airstairs.

 

[lookin4better]

This is the fault of the CA. If they would not let them out at the terminal, have them push you back, and take them to the FBO. Have them get cabs and pick them up at the terminal the next morning.

I have done this before. Yes, you have to do the carpet dance, but guess what, it is better than making people sleep in a jet for nine hrs.

That is the first thing that came to my mind.... FBO!

 

[glasspilot]

How many restaurants go 500 MPH, operate at 37000 ft and have been used as flying missles?

You're right. Because those people were on airplanes they have no right to expect to be let off within 10 hours of landing.

Nice the way you tied 9/11 into it to somehow evoke patriotism to justify those folks sitting on the ramp all night. Smooth...


As far as my armchair QuarterBacking...using your analogy I am a quarter back and I guarantee those people would have got off the freaking plane within an hour...maybe two at the outside if I had been there.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Regarding the FBO: The 145 needs airstairs.

Good point but....
Been a long time since I've been to an FBO but don't most larger ones have portable stairs? Hell at that point I think people would have been ready to use a step ladder...... yeah I know someone would have broken a leg...yada yada ya....

 

[Ex737Driver]

You're right. Because those people were on airplanes they have no right to expect to be let off within 10 hours of landing.

Nice the way you tied 9/11 into it to somehow evoke patriotism to justify those folks sitting on the ramp all night. Smooth...


As far as my armchair QuarterBacking...using your analogy I am a quarter back and I guarantee those people would have got off the freaking plane within an hour...maybe two at the outside if I had been there.

The ananolgy was not to 9/11 but to the security required today for 47 paxs, not the two snobby lawyers in the back of your citation. I know it's hard for you to grasp but there are policies, proceedures, and rules that have to be followed. I'm quite sure there are multiple options that were available past that, but second-guessing is a lot easier from your recliner apparently.

I'd give you a quarter to buy a clue, but I'm quite sure I'd have to tell you how high to jump as well.

 

[densoo]

Good point but....
Been a long time since I've been to an FBO but don't most larger ones have portable stairs? Hell at that point I think people would have been ready to use a step ladder...... yeah I know someone would have broken a leg...yada yada ya....

Call the fire department. They've got a whole group of folks who love to get called for an "exercise" that will count for a response movement. If they have the equipment to get people out of burning buildings and planes, they can get 47 people down from a 4' drop. Added bonus, they have complete access to the terminal building (codes, keys, crashaxe, whatever). Once inside (or even if stuck outside) they'd know who to call. "Hey, airport manager, I've got 50 people standing on your tarmac, please come get them. Thanks. Bye."

 

[Flopgut]

Call the fire department. They've got a whole group of folks who love to get called for an "exercise" that will count for a response movement. If they have the equipment to get people out of burning buildings and planes, they can get 47 people down from a 4' drop. Added bonus, they have complete access to the terminal building (codes, keys, crashaxe, whatever). Once inside (or even if stuck outside) they'd know who to call. "Hey, airport manager, I've got 50 people standing on your tarmac, please come get them. Thanks. Bye."

Yeah! Wow, what a cool idea! That's just so crazy, it just might work! Then, let's call mcGyver and the A team and get B.A. Baracas to jump his van over the terminal!!

Sarcasm off-

Seems pretty clear the feet that need to be held to the fire don't belong to CAL or Expressjet.

 

[Flopgut]

Good point but....
Been a long time since I've been to an FBO but don't most larger ones have portable stairs? Hell at that point I think people would have been ready to use a step ladder...... yeah I know someone would have broken a leg...yada yada ya....

One of the biggest issues Expressjet charter has is finding airstairs. They are scarce. Maybe they had some there, but I doubt it.

 

[densoo]

Yeah! Wow, what a cool idea! That's just so crazy, it just might work! Then, let's call mcGyver and the A team and get B.A. Baracas to jump his van over the terminal!

I got that! eoooowrg! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKvT1laennU