NICE Job Continental Airlines

[glasspilot]

I know it's hard for you to grasp but there are policies, proceedures, and rules that have to be followed.

So you think the policies, proceedures, and rules worked well this time?


I flew 121 post 9/11. Don't lecture me about your holy rules. If 47 paying pax have to sit on an RJ overnight on some dark ramp then they are indeed holey rules and need to be fixed. Common sense has to come in somewhere and it didn't in this case.

I can't believe anyone would even try to defend this incident. Amazing. Oh, and yet one more reason in the endless parade of reasons why those two snobby lawyers are in the back of my plane and not yours.

 

[Flopgut]

Ahh yes, Ned Ryerson!

Here you go Densoo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxinqggzHWw&feature=related

 

[CA1900]

Bing!

 

[Flopgut]

Oh, and yet one more reason in the endless parade of reasons why those two snobby lawyers are in the back of my plane and not yours.

All this just so you can make this point again. Saying it over and over, exaggerating the airlines' fault (in this case no fault), isn't going to keep those two lawyers in the back of your plane. Your owners are sqwaking 1200 at an alarming rate. I sincerely hope you guys don't furlough, but going after the airlines on here all the time isn't going to get the owners back.

This was the airport's fault.

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe I shouldn't have responded to his "two laywers" comment. It's not the point of this thread. But I was responding...not trying to tie it in somehow.

That said, there is no way this is the airports fault. Airports are not entrusted with passenger safety and comfort. Airlines are. Captains are.

Somebody should have figured out a way to get the people off. It's not that hard a puzzle to work out.

 

[Flopgut]

Airlines once had a very large margin for error with regard to customer service. But living under the 30 year forced mandate of granting the average US airline customer access to safe air travel for less than it costs them to stay at home has put a little dent in it. K? I think we agree. If these customers wanted to go to the FBO they could have coughed up the 40K a piece it would have cost them to ride on your airplane. In fact, they could have chartered the same type airplane from the exact company they were riding on picked the FBO and airport they wanted to use. They didn't do that. They bought the cheapest ticket on the internet they could possibly find and they STILL got more than they paid for.

 

[glasspilot]

So you're saying the flight wasn't ALLOWED to go to the FBO?

30 year forced mandate?

Flop, I've read your posts before and they usually make sense, but common. A 121 plane can certainly go to any FBO and dump the willing pax off. Bags and all. That isn't a violation of anything and they don't have to pay 40K to do it. The airline would have maybe had a ramp fee of a couple hundred dollars. Big deal.

What "forced mandate" are you referring? The deregulation of the airlines? Wow, there's a can of worms. You blame competition for an RJ RON with pax? That's what it comes to? Really? I agree the airlines are in a race to the bottom and refuse to charge what the product costs, but that is a separate issue. No human should have to sit on an RJ overnight. Ever. EVER! EVER! If that becomes acceptable then all is lost. Not just as air travel goes, but as humanity goes as well.

 

[Flopgut]

Glasspilot: I stand by my comments on de-reg, and that I don't believe an airliner can just show up at an FBO. You and I know your asking for an injury and compromising safety and as uncomfortable as those customers were, they weren't in harms way. More importantly, I'm not too sure humanity isn't already lost, especially in air transportation, when the US Transportation Sec speaks to an issue and lays the blame on some party other than the airline, but guys like you STILL WANT TO BLAME THE AIRLINE!! What's the deal man?! I'm pretty sure they ran this to a ground wire with every intention of making airline employees heads roll, and guess what? They're laying the blame elsewhere! It went to basically the highest transportation authourity we have(quite quickly I might ad), and he's not blaming the airline. Why does that not sit well with you? Why does the airline automatically have to be blamed for everything? Look at the article again, would you? Did I miss something?

 

[astroglider]

Why is there even a discussion over this. IT WAS THE CAPTAIN"S FAULT the passengers spent the night on the aircraft.

Regardless of why they landed where they landed...regardless of the filed alternate. What kind of panzy Captain wouldn't take care of his passengers? GMAFB

After it became obvious common sense wasn't going to prevail there, the Captain should have deplaned the airplane.

As we all know we work in a crazy industry. Many temp workers...folks who do not know what the hell they are doing. We deal with many fiefdoms. Some ridiculous regulations, many good ones too... The flight crew has to utilize some common sense in order to operate in this environment. This Captain made airline pilots look like idiots. Don't be like him, use your heads out there!

Astroglider

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Without support from dispatch, operations, and the airport, the Captain is only left with unsafe and/or illegal options to deplane the aircraft. Some are looking at this like "how hard can it be to deplane an rj," but the operational limitations apply across the entire 121 fleet. Imagine if this were a 757 with one lave mel'd, which would be normal for domestic operations. This is another example of how the Captain's authority has been eroded by the airlines to control the decision making to serve whatever goal they are trying to meet at that moment (on time pushback, save money on apu at expense of comfort, shorting the galley of water, limiting divert related expenses). The Captain should not have to plead with anyone to move the aircraft and deplane. Once a decision is made, operations should do whatever is required to make it happen.

Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call.

As far as where do we go from here, I have already forwarded to my union reps that this is a Captain's Authority issue and we need to keep working to an environment where we do indeed train and entrust Captain's to make hard decisions, and support them and give them the resources to make the plan come together safely. Holding the Captain responsible for someone else's decision is ridiculous.

 

[astroglider]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

How would you have gotten the pax off the airplane? Physically....

 

[Britpilot]

How would you have gotten the pax off the airplane? Physically....

With a set of stairs pushed up to the door. Simple really.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Phrogs4eversaid..."Without a legitimate emergency to declare, the Captain is forced to deal with whatever decisions are being made by people outside the airplane. Since there were no health casualties or injuries, it can be argued that the passengers were only "uncomfortable and inconvenienced" and hence, not an emergency. For those Super Captains on this board who would have incurred additional and unnecessary risk to get passengers off the plane, enjoy the comfort of your arm chair and hope you never have to make that call."

Phrogs,

Your kind of thinking is what gets us into these types of situations and I might add gets people killed. Get your head out of the "Company Manual" for a second and exercise some common sense!

Call me a Monday morning quarterback if you like, but your wrong. Had I been there the passengers would have been in the terminal within a couple of hours....not six. This was the Captains call and he/she blew it. Sure I hope I'm never in this situation...but had I been you wouldn't be reading about it in the news or on a message board.

I'm amazed there is even a debate on this...

Astro

My focus was on the Captain's authority not being supported by the company...how exactly does that get people killed? If there's an emergency, declare it! Hyperbole is the first sign your argument is weak.

Common sense? Was anyone injured or needed medical assistance? But you would have saved the day exactly how??? Please enlighten us, to what extent and risks you would have exposed to your crew, passengers, and not to mention the company's liability in order to get off the plane. If noone supports the Captain's decision to deplane the aircraft, please tell us all how you would have physically done it at that airport, at that time, with the ground personnel and facilities available, after your conversations with ops and dispatch went unproductive. Please, enlighten us all so we will know.

If you were the Captain that night we might be debating why some grandma is suing Express Jet for a broken hip going down a not-approved ladder in the middle of the night.

Once again for the heros, the Captain can make all the hard decisions he/she wants, but if they are not supported by the appropriate agencies then it is an empty decision. Captain's authority has been eroded to the point of liability!

 

[astroglider]

I'll say it again Phrog, your kind of thinking gets people killed. You're the guy that would fail to act in time to prevent a tragidy because you were too busy worrying about what the "book" says. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time. Some situations require you to think "outside" the box/book.

So to answer your question:

After discussing the situation with my company I would then tell the station manager I am calling CNN, FoxNews etc if no airstair showed up within 20-30 minutes. Making the arguement that this has happened before...let's get the folks off the plane or there will be some bad press.

If he refused....
Then I would have gotten off the airplane. Faced with staying in the airplane all night I'm pretty sure most Captain's would have climbed down out of the airplane. If the station manager calls the police, what are they going to do arrest you. No one has broken a law or reg. until you try to depart.

1. Plead face to face with the ramp crew.

2. Drive an "approved" airstair up to the aircraft yourself if you have to...

3. Call the police if anyone tries to stop you...using the arguement that any interference with a crewmembers duty is a Federal Offense.

Bottom line: I would not sit there all night long like a prisoner. I would have tried done something.

 

[Instigator]

They're off the airplane. Now what?

 

[astroglider]

Instigator said, "They're off the airplane. Now what?"

Amazing statement. Do you really fly for a living?

Um make them as comfortable as possible in the terminal or FBO. Pax are still the Captain's responsibility...order take-out, whatever it takes. It certainly is better than remaining on-board.

Astroglider

 

[Phrogs4ever]

I'll say it again Phrog, your kind of thinking gets people killed. You're the guy that would fail to act in time to prevent a tragidy because you were too busy worrying about what the "book" says. Sometimes you don't have that kind of time. Some situations require you to think "outside" the box/book.

So to answer your question:

After discussing the situation with my company I would then tell the station manager I am calling CNN, FoxNews etc if no airstair showed up within 20-30 minutes. Making the arguement that this has happened before...let's get the folks off the plane or there will be some bad press.

If he refused....
Then I would have gotten off the airplane. Faced with staying in the airplane all night I'm pretty sure most Captain's would have climbed down out of the airplane. If the station manager calls the police, what are they going to do arrest you. No one has broken a law or reg. until you try to depart.

1. Plead face to face with the ramp crew.

2. Drive an "approved" airstair up to the aircraft yourself if you have to...

3. Call the police if anyone tries to stop you...using the arguement that any interference with a crewmembers duty is a Federal Offense.

Bottom line: I would not sit there all night long like a prisoner. I would have tried done something.

This is obviously going way over your head so this I'll keep this simple.

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Once again, your hysterics wreak of lack of judgement and experience. For the last time, the Captain's decision requires support. If there is an emergency, declare it. And I still want to know how I get people killed.

In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations. To date, I have done well. You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

 

[astroglider]

Phrogs4ever:

1. How exactly does my kind of thinking get people killed?

One example of many...You're thinking like the two Captains on the Swissair MD-11 that burned then crashed. Instead of landing immediately...they were too busy trying to burn off fuel so they wouldn't land overweight...My point here is they blindly followed the "book" instead looking at the big picture. They had airports within a short distance in which they could have landed but they turned out to sea.

2. Plead with the ramp crew? That's your answer? Just like when you were pleading with everyone else, your decision doesn't mean squat if people outside the airplane don't support you.

Sure...face to face contact might help. Then if that does not work I'd take matters into my own hands.

3. So Captain, you are going to what, go down the rope ladder, commandeer an airstair and drive it up yourself. Abandon you pax and steal heavy equipment at an airport (anti-terrorism laws come to mind), operate it without training and hope somebody pats you on the back for being such a bold decision maker. Good plan.

Yep that's my plan, thanks. I'm not abandoning the pax btw...the F/O and F/A would be with them while I help enable their deplaning.

I spent enough time working the ramp at an FBO and in airline ops to operate a airstair...not that hard. Most airstairs btw aren't motorized. You push them up to the airplane...but I guess you'd watched enlisted folks do that instead...wouldn't want to get YOUR hands dirty. btw I worked the USAF ramp too...we had airstairs you pushed up to the aircraft, and of course the latters we hung on the F-4's.

4. Interference with a crew member...you're a thief. You are driving an unauthorized vehicle around an airport. I'm sure you won't have to call the police.

Whatever dude...your at a small town FBO. Common sense trumps whatever rules are thrown up against you by a PIG HEADED station manager from ANOTHER AIRLINE! The entire traveling public, news organizations, most airline managers and most airline employees are on my side too. Someone tries to arrest you, fine, all you have to do is talk to the news outlets. You're doing what 99% of folks know to be the right thing. No way you're going to get in trouble for that.


In sixteen years of military flying and six years of commercial aviation I have certainly learned how to balance "the book" with real world situations.

Apparently not...

You can't teach experience or sound judgement, you just get it with maturity over the course of your career. I truly hope you get to that point before you have to make a newsworthy decision.

So Phrogs you would have just sat there maturally for the entire night, in the airplane making your pax suffer?
....I wouldn't call that mature...I'd call it Stupid...

Astro
ps. Phrogs4ever are you a USAFA grad? Just curious.

 

[Hutchman]

Just a few facts:

Last flight out of Rochester 6:10pm

Terminal was closed, lights out no one home, all locked up

Ground, Tower, Approach control- Closed at 11pm

Manager called at home by dispatcher

Passengers let off plane when the normal ops/ramp showed up for the morning flight.

---------------------

For those who want to declare an emergency, you would have to call Center. I am not too sure what they could do for you since you are safely on the ground.

It is easy to Monday morning QB. Options were limited. I can assure you neither of the pilots had ever been to Rochester and most likely never will again. The investigation does not blame the pilots. Investigations normally Always find blame with the pilots.

While the situation was far from ideal, the pilots did not have any good options with the airport manager and dispatch no helping. Fire the dispatcher and time for a new airport manager.