Nice B6 history lesson

[BLUE BAYOU]

Hey Fox APA's chief council stated that had TWA not accepted the SLI integration AMR would have opted to wait for TWA to liquidate. ALPA did all it could.

Read the Lee Seham report:

http://www.twapilot.org/pages/ALPA Lawsuit.html


So there weren't any back door deals to woo APA? ALPA did all they could for the TWA pilots? Well, my friend, a jury in NJ didn't think so.

Also, could someone please come up with why there aren't any Midwest Pilots (ALPA) working for the company that acquired them (Republic IBT)? I mean, weren't those Midwest pilots good standing, due paying members? Where was their "insurance policy"?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

$$$4nothin,

You will never be senior enough to make what BB does. The ability to make that kind of money here at JB is reserved for top of the seniority list. A middle of the road guy will probably not be able to make much more than 150,000 unless you you have no life. That is part of the problem he does not want to rock the boat because he has got his.

I've got mine? Really? I get my paycheck the old fashion way, I earn it... I blocked 970 hours last year and yes, I do sacrifice for my family-- what's wrong with that. I also don't have a BMW, boat, airplane, Harley, or extra marital affair either


That middle of the road guy will be where I'm at in 5 years with the continued aircraft delivery schedule and upgrades. The seniority list here at a 12 year old airline is nothing compared to the 17-year F/Os you see at LCC...



Guys, instead being so emotional, why don't you read the Lee Seham Report and learn about the organization you wish to be a part of:



http://www.twapilot.org/pages/ALPA Lawsuit.html

 

[$$$4nothin]

could someone please come up with why there aren't any Midwest Pilots (ALPA) working for the company that acquired them (Republic IBT)? I mean, weren't those Midwest pilots good standing, due paying members? Where was their "insurance policy"?

I just left RAH and sat next to ex Midwest guys on a regular basis. Every pilot that was at Midwest has a seat at RAH if they want it. Most guys elected not to fly a Emb-145 or 170/190 for $22/hr. I can't say I blame them. You will find that most guys at RAH think very highly of the ex MW guys, many of us believe they got a pretty raw deal, but they all have jobs if they want them.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

There are TWA pilots on the ALPA organizing committee at JetBlue. Talk to them. AA is recalling these guys now. The only reason they even still have a seniority number and recall rights is because of ALPA. Given the choice for a "do over," all of the TWA guys I have spoken with would choose ALPA again over no representation. Why? They felt it would have been a worse outcome without ALPA.

If one's argument for the DR is due to the length it takes to achieve a CBA, then that is only relative to the particular pilot union and airline management team negotiating for that particular CBA. My previous airline negotiated a CBA in 3 years. Your union is what your pilot group makes of it. Every pilot group is different.

Here's some additional food for thought. Currently with no representation at JetBlue, who represents you if you have legal issues with the FAA? Answer.....the company MAY provide you with an atorney for any legal issues. FACT: there was a legal issue with a JetBlue flight crew where the FAA filed for certificate action. The company initially provided the crew with an attorney. The attorney assured the crew that the FAA did not have a case, and the crew was not at fault. The crew agreed and wanted to fight for thier rights. Since the FAA recommended that the crew accept letters of warning in their files, the company decided to accept the FAA's recommendation and advised the crew that they would no longer provide them with an attorney. Can you see the conflict of interest here? So the crew was left to fend for themselves, facing thousands of dollars in attorney's fees if they wished to pursue the case (which neither could afford). Case closed.

My point....here at JetBlue, you are on your own with no representation. Talk to the folks who have been out on medical leave. There are plenty of stories similar to the one above regarding medical issues as well. Again, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN! I'll take ALPA over no representation any day! The company is in full union busting mode. The tactics are right out of the union busting handbook. Why do they fight? They fight for CONTROL. Right now, the pilots have absolutely no control. The company has it all, and they don't want to give it up. Educate yourselves. Make a logical decision, not an emotional one.

 

[ChuckDriver]

Look, guy, the last ten years have had their ups and downs, mostly ups. I fully agree with you there. But the DR has exactly no teeth if we need representation for a transactional event. There is an arguably small but non-zero chance of one happening here before we retire, but even a 2% chance becomes 100% if it happens to you. Do you really think that we stand a snowball's chance of preserving our current pay and lifestyle if the board decides it's in the shareholders' best interests to merge this company with another airline? Even if we do ultimately prevail in court, how many years will it take and how much will it cost us? No matter what you think of ALPA or how they spend dues, a 2% career insurance premium is a bargain and the fact is they've cleaned house and they're on a roll. DAL/NWA, UAL/CAL, SWA/Tranny, all going well from a historical standpoint.

Before you get started with irrelevancies like TWA or the UAL lawsuit, TWA was 10 years ago and they're only now getting their day in court. UAL was a result of misbehavior by the locally elected representatives, not ALPA National. How would you like to still be dealing with a 2015 merger in 2025? I plan to retire in 2028. I would never be made whole if I have to fight 10 years to get my own money back. The lack of tax deferred 401k growth alone would prohibit it, especially at the current industry trailing contribution rate. The 5 docs could be airtight, awesome, legally perfect, but they are precedent setting. Read: lots and lots of time, money and our pay and retirement down the drain while they are sorted out in court. You might be independently wealthy, I don't know, but I'm the household breadwinner and I can't afford to be a legal test case. That's really the bottom line with me. I don't like State Farm's internal policies, but they are solvent, offer decent insurance for the price, and I can't afford an uninsured loss. I look at ALPA the same way.

Please explain what you mean by this? Do you know something we don't? ALPA has NO power against SWAPA!

 

[Blue Dude]

Please explain what you mean by this? Do you know something we don't? ALPA has NO power against SWAPA!

They have a merger committee, don't they? That committee speaks for all AirTran pilots, don't they? Every AirTran pilot will become a SWA pilot, won't they? The merger is contingent on pilot integration, isn't it? Do you realize that in the same situation here that none of the above would apply? That if the *other* company, not JetBlue, decided not to operationally merge us, McK/B would *not* apply, and there's no provision in our contracts that would make it apply? That all the *other* company would have to do to fully comply with our contracts is offer us another take-it-or-leave-it PEA amendment: waive all your section 15 rights or you get a year's pay and a termination notice? That even if we were operationally merged, we are legally speaking not a pilot group, just a collection of independent contractors, and nobody is authorized to speak for us as a group... except management? That these are known critical holes in our M&A protection and that same management refused to patch them despite the insistence of the PVC in the proposed 5 docs, even in the proposed amendments?

Compared to all that, you think that "ALPA has NO power against SWAPA"? ALPA doesn't *need* to have power against SWAPA to be a far better representative than we have now; they just need a seat at the table! ALPA could be the weakest pilot representative this side of the Teamsters and they'd still run rings around our status quo. Even if they negotiated a staple, we'd be better off than what we would look forward to in the absence of a bargaining unit. Because we have no rights other than what are spelled out in the PEA, and there's far less there than meets the eye.

 

[Blue Dude]

Read the Lee Seham report:

http://www.twapilot.org/pages/ALPA Lawsuit.html


So there weren't any back door deals to woo APA? ALPA did all they could for the TWA pilots? Well, my friend, a jury in NJ didn't think so.

Interesting reading, thanks. It doesn't answer the most important question, though, since a jury has yet to determine it: would ALPA's full weight have made any effective difference to the TWA pilots? We'll know in a year or two.

It also doesn't answer the pertinent question before us: would TWA have been better off with a direct relationship or with ALPA, fully-committed or not? If the TWA pilots had our PEA's, what would have happened to them? Do you honestly think any of them would have ended up with anything other a year's pay and a pink slip, best case? And what in our PEA's would have prevented such an outcome?

 

[Lake Alice]

Read the Lee Seham report:

http://www.twapilot.org/pages/ALPA Lawsuit.html


So there weren't any back door deals to woo APA? ALPA did all they could for the TWA pilots? Well, my friend, a jury in NJ didn't think so.

Also, could someone please come up with why there aren't any Midwest Pilots (ALPA) working for the company that acquired them (Republic IBT)? I mean, weren't those Midwest pilots good standing, due paying members? Where was their "insurance policy"?

I guess the back door deals are similar to the ones many of the committee members are getting now? Or the ones a certain BoB got with stock options, or the ones 13 of the 14 190 fo's received because they could afford a lawyer. Are those the back door deals you speak of? What did you get?

 

[Dizel8]

Sorry BB,

Sounds like LUV and AAI has agreed to a tentative agreement for an SLI.

Wonder how we would have fared under the Direct Relationship?

(Heck I can't even say DR without laughing)

 

[Fubijaakr]

You will find that most guys at RAH think very highly of the ex MW guys, many of us believe they got a pretty raw deal, but they all have jobs if they want them.

That's because YOU have THEIR jobs.

I also don't have a BMW, boat, airplane, Harley, or extra marital affair either

Maybe if you had some of these things, you'd be a happier guy. Personally, I think you need to get laid.