New WSJ article on awful Pilot Pay in Colgan crash

Abernathy

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Hopefully all this sh** comes to a head. The gov't wants more experienced pilots at the controls? Force minimum compensation to attract more experienced talent. Continue to pay $17-25K a year and all that talent is going to go overseas (Middle East, Asia, etc...)
 

ThisistheDream

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Any time there is an accident and people lose there lives it is tragic!!!!!!! Sometimes it can be a complete mistake or something out of our control that causes it. Overall I think most pilots and most professional careers where we take on risk the people worknig are very compitent and do a good job!! Not too long ago in a MSP area well known hospital, a patient with cancer in one kidney had surgery to have the bad one removed.. By accident the Doctor and staff removed and disposed the heathly kidney!!!!!!!!!!
 

ACL65PILOT

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Any time there is an accident and people lose there lives it is tragic!!!!!!! Sometimes it can be a complete mistake or something out of our control that causes it. Overall I think most pilots and most professional careers where we take on risk the people working are very competent and do a good job!! Not too long ago in a MSP area well known hospital, a patient with cancer in one kidney had surgery to have the bad one removed.. By accident the Doctor and staff removed and disposed the healthy kidney!!!!!!!!!!
And that is why with most surgeries and amputations they write "NO" on the part that is not to be fixed or removed. Now with a Kidney there are procedures in place to limit the mistake, but as with aviation, mistakes happen.
 

another cfii

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If only we can place postit notes of "NO" in the cockpit to prevent accidents like these... RIP 3407
 

clippyrip

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If anything comes from this article, it will be commute restrictions and not an increase in pay.
 

tailhookah

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Does the Q400 have auto throttles?

Two things...

1) The plane gets very slow... condition levers max or full forward... airspeed bleeds off. The speed tape goes into the red (stall) zone and the throttles go to full power.

2) She puts the flaps up and the plane soon departs...

I know what she was thinking... flaps go down and the plane soon stalls... maybe split flaps??? But if she had some more experience (I had them once in an E2 over Saudi) she'd know they weren't split because they were already at 5 flaps... maybe the result would've been much different had the flaps remained at the same setting. I'd bet that plane wont fly w/ flaps at zero around 100 kias... I thought he did a great job fighting the stall but w/ the flaps coming up he was screwed...

tailhookah
 

firstthird

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I thought he did a great job fighting the stall but w/ the flaps coming up he was screwed...
are you kidding? pulling against the stick pusher is not 'a great job fighting the stall.' her moving the flaps, while probably not ideal, was not the first nor the most important link in this chain.
 

blzr

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Speaking of pulling the flaps up...Why would you change the configuration before you had the situation under control..Same with wind shear, ride the stickshaker and DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION until you get out of the shear.

Nightly News was not kind to Regional airlines. The unwashed masses are all thinking regional pilots are substandard, Sully wannabeees.
 

Chairman

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Why would you change the configuration before you had the situation under control..Same with wind shear, ride the stickshaker and DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION until you get out of the shear. .
If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail
 

tailhookah

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firstthird wrote:

are you kidding? pulling against the stick pusher is not 'a great job fighting the stall.' her moving the flaps, while probably not ideal, was not the first nor the most important link in this chain.
Look at the video of the NTSB recreation off the black box Chuck Yeager. You'll see that he got them into the stall... he was keeping the plane shiny side up and fighting it but it all went to hell went she put the flaps up at around 95 kias... he was screwed after that...

He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah
 

tailhookah

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chairman wrote:

If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail
yeah... but she went full up and wasn't told to do so by the CAPTAIN. She went full up flaps (2 detents) at 93 kias... not something I want my FO to do uncommanded during a deep stall recovery. Oh yeah... it wasn't tail plane stall either. That causes a plane to go hard nose down... not up.

Tailhookah
 

FO 4 Life

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If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail
No stick shaker in a tailplane stall. Your AOA is still good.

I would think with the engines under the wing, putting in power would cause a pitch up, couple with that sinking feeling and/or pitch change from putting the flaps to 0 screwed'em.
 

landlover

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He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah
like all accidents many things lead up to and cause the crash. take anyone link out and no accident.
 

tailhookah

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It's a terrible accident and lesson as to why we need more practice on stuff like this during recurrent. But the FAA is too inflexible to let us go in the sims and focus on multiple V1 cuts, stalls and windshear recoveries. Let's face it, the LOFT profile is mostly a joke... you could take that 2 hours of real time crap out of the sim for me. That's why it's called a simulator. You don't need that real ground time to make the "turn" realistic...

I'd rather spend the extra time doing another 5 V1 and V2 cuts at low visibility... engine fire after takeoff to return VMC in the pattern w/ a heavy aircraft...

Things we need to brush up on only get cursory time and then only a little bit of work, since there's so much more to do and only so much time. Hopefully 2 good things will come out of this crash.

1) The need for better realistic training in the sims.

2) The need for better pay across the industry.

Tail...
 

Smarta$$

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firstthird wrote:



Look at the video of the NTSB recreation off the black box Chuck Yeager. You'll see that he got them into the stall... he was keeping the plane shiny side up and fighting it but it all went to hell went she put the flaps up at around 95 kias... he was screwed after that...

He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah

Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.
 

timmay

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Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.
Also they were at about 95 degrees of roll when the flaps actually move. In my opinion her moving the flaps did no more to cause the crash than the what the Captain had already done.
 

IslandDriver

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Power anyone...power....did anyone think about adding power? I know the CVR talks of it but I heard that the FDR shows they did not add full or Emergency power....5000HP a side might have helped!
 

jmreii

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It's a terrible accident and lesson as to why we need more practice on stuff like this during recurrent. But the FAA is too inflexible to let us go in the sims and focus on multiple V1 cuts, stalls and windshear recoveries. Let's face it, the LOFT profile is mostly a joke... you could take that 2 hours of real time crap out of the sim for me. That's why it's called a simulator. You don't need that real ground time to make the "turn" realistic...

I'd rather spend the extra time doing another 5 V1 and V2 cuts at low visibility... engine fire after takeoff to return VMC in the pattern w/ a heavy aircraft...

Things we need to brush up on only get cursory time and then only a little bit of work, since there's so much more to do and only so much time. Hopefully 2 good things will come out of this crash.

1) The need for better realistic training in the sims.

2) The need for better pay across the industry.

Tail...
I will second that vote
 

IslandDriver

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Well I watched the annimation...I guess they did add power...but the pitch up was excessive....It is sad....It should have never happened....we all have to remember to pay attention to what we are doing...we forget it sometimes but we do have lives at stake. The pay may suck...the hours may suck...the commute may suck...but we chose to do the job...so we should do it and do it right. Not that any of us is perfect...we just have to remember what it is we are doing.

I know will get bashed for this post...but for what it is worth....just do our jobs...and do them right...don't stall then we will not need a stall recovery!
 
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