New WSJ article on awful Pilot Pay in Colgan crash

[labbats]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124222144768115205.html

 

[Abernathy]

Hopefully all this sh** comes to a head. The gov't wants more experienced pilots at the controls? Force minimum compensation to attract more experienced talent. Continue to pay $17-25K a year and all that talent is going to go overseas (Middle East, Asia, etc...)

 

[ThisistheDream]

Any time there is an accident and people lose there lives it is tragic!!!!!!! Sometimes it can be a complete mistake or something out of our control that causes it. Overall I think most pilots and most professional careers where we take on risk the people worknig are very compitent and do a good job!! Not too long ago in a MSP area well known hospital, a patient with cancer in one kidney had surgery to have the bad one removed.. By accident the Doctor and staff removed and disposed the heathly kidney!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Any time there is an accident and people lose there lives it is tragic!!!!!!! Sometimes it can be a complete mistake or something out of our control that causes it. Overall I think most pilots and most professional careers where we take on risk the people working are very competent and do a good job!! Not too long ago in a MSP area well known hospital, a patient with cancer in one kidney had surgery to have the bad one removed.. By accident the Doctor and staff removed and disposed the healthy kidney!!!!!!!!!!

And that is why with most surgeries and amputations they write "NO" on the part that is not to be fixed or removed. Now with a Kidney there are procedures in place to limit the mistake, but as with aviation, mistakes happen.

 

[another cfii]

If only we can place postit notes of "NO" in the cockpit to prevent accidents like these... RIP 3407

 

[clippyrip]

If anything comes from this article, it will be commute restrictions and not an increase in pay.

 

[tailhookah]

Does the Q400 have auto throttles?

Two things...

1) The plane gets very slow... condition levers max or full forward... airspeed bleeds off. The speed tape goes into the red (stall) zone and the throttles go to full power.

2) She puts the flaps up and the plane soon departs...

I know what she was thinking... flaps go down and the plane soon stalls... maybe split flaps??? But if she had some more experience (I had them once in an E2 over Saudi) she'd know they weren't split because they were already at 5 flaps... maybe the result would've been much different had the flaps remained at the same setting. I'd bet that plane wont fly w/ flaps at zero around 100 kias... I thought he did a great job fighting the stall but w/ the flaps coming up he was screwed...

tailhookah

 

[firstthird]

I thought he did a great job fighting the stall but w/ the flaps coming up he was screwed...

are you kidding? pulling against the stick pusher is not 'a great job fighting the stall.' her moving the flaps, while probably not ideal, was not the first nor the most important link in this chain.

 

[blzr]

Speaking of pulling the flaps up...Why would you change the configuration before you had the situation under control..Same with wind shear, ride the stickshaker and DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION until you get out of the shear.

Nightly News was not kind to Regional airlines. The unwashed masses are all thinking regional pilots are substandard, Sully wannabeees.

 

[Chairman]

Why would you change the configuration before you had the situation under control..Same with wind shear, ride the stickshaker and DO NOT CHANGE THE CONFIGURATION until you get out of the shear. .

If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail

 

[tailhookah]

firstthird wrote:

are you kidding? pulling against the stick pusher is not 'a great job fighting the stall.' her moving the flaps, while probably not ideal, was not the first nor the most important link in this chain.

Look at the video of the NTSB recreation off the black box Chuck Yeager. You'll see that he got them into the stall... he was keeping the plane shiny side up and fighting it but it all went to hell went she put the flaps up at around 95 kias... he was screwed after that...

He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah

 

[tailhookah]

chairman wrote:

If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail

yeah... but she went full up and wasn't told to do so by the CAPTAIN. She went full up flaps (2 detents) at 93 kias... not something I want my FO to do uncommanded during a deep stall recovery. Oh yeah... it wasn't tail plane stall either. That causes a plane to go hard nose down... not up.

Tailhookah

 

[FO 4 Life]

If there was any thought of tail plane icing moving the flaps to the last position is what the trained recovery is to do. Saying that I have not flown the Q400 but it was stressed in the EMB120 because of the T-Tail

No stick shaker in a tailplane stall. Your AOA is still good.

I would think with the engines under the wing, putting in power would cause a pitch up, couple with that sinking feeling and/or pitch change from putting the flaps to 0 screwed'em.

 

[landlover]

He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah

like all accidents many things lead up to and cause the crash. take anyone link out and no accident.

 

[tailhookah]

It's a terrible accident and lesson as to why we need more practice on stuff like this during recurrent. But the FAA is too inflexible to let us go in the sims and focus on multiple V1 cuts, stalls and windshear recoveries. Let's face it, the LOFT profile is mostly a joke... you could take that 2 hours of real time crap out of the sim for me. That's why it's called a simulator. You don't need that real ground time to make the "turn" realistic...

I'd rather spend the extra time doing another 5 V1 and V2 cuts at low visibility... engine fire after takeoff to return VMC in the pattern w/ a heavy aircraft...

Things we need to brush up on only get cursory time and then only a little bit of work, since there's so much more to do and only so much time. Hopefully 2 good things will come out of this crash.

1) The need for better realistic training in the sims.

2) The need for better pay across the industry.

Tail...

 

[Smarta$$]

firstthird wrote:



Look at the video of the NTSB recreation off the black box Chuck Yeager. You'll see that he got them into the stall... he was keeping the plane shiny side up and fighting it but it all went to hell went she put the flaps up at around 95 kias... he was screwed after that...

He got them into it... she killed them all. Just my opinion. I'll wait until the final report in about 8 months to tell you I told you so.

Tailhookah

Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.

 

[timmay]

Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.

Also they were at about 95 degrees of roll when the flaps actually move. In my opinion her moving the flaps did no more to cause the crash than the what the Captain had already done.

 

[IslandDriver]

Power anyone...power....did anyone think about adding power? I know the CVR talks of it but I heard that the FDR shows they did not add full or Emergency power....5000HP a side might have helped!

 

[jmreii]

It's a terrible accident and lesson as to why we need more practice on stuff like this during recurrent. But the FAA is too inflexible to let us go in the sims and focus on multiple V1 cuts, stalls and windshear recoveries. Let's face it, the LOFT profile is mostly a joke... you could take that 2 hours of real time crap out of the sim for me. That's why it's called a simulator. You don't need that real ground time to make the "turn" realistic...

I'd rather spend the extra time doing another 5 V1 and V2 cuts at low visibility... engine fire after takeoff to return VMC in the pattern w/ a heavy aircraft...

Things we need to brush up on only get cursory time and then only a little bit of work, since there's so much more to do and only so much time. Hopefully 2 good things will come out of this crash.

1) The need for better realistic training in the sims.

2) The need for better pay across the industry.

Tail...

I will second that vote

 

[IslandDriver]

Well I watched the annimation...I guess they did add power...but the pitch up was excessive....It is sad....It should have never happened....we all have to remember to pay attention to what we are doing...we forget it sometimes but we do have lives at stake. The pay may suck...the hours may suck...the commute may suck...but we chose to do the job...so we should do it and do it right. Not that any of us is perfect...we just have to remember what it is we are doing.

I know will get bashed for this post...but for what it is worth....just do our jobs...and do them right...don't stall then we will not need a stall recovery!

 

[tailhookah]

Smarta$$ wrote:

Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.

Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

 

[clippyrip]

Well I watched the annimation...

Where can the animation be found?

 

[scrub]

Where can the animation be found?

Right here on FI!!!!!!

 

[jonjuan]

Smarta$$ wrote:



Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

Moving the flap lever doesn't mean immediate flap movement or I guess you already realized this (the flaps are sloooow moving on the Q and weren't fully retracted until about a second prior to impact.) Of course I'll bet most of your flying is done via MS 2000.

 

[Superpilot92]

Well I watched the annimation...I guess they did add power...but the pitch up was excessive....It is sad....It should have never happened....we all have to remember to pay attention to what we are doing...we forget it sometimes but we do have lives at stake. The pay may suck...the hours may suck...the commute may suck...but we chose to do the job...so we should do it and do it right. Not that any of us is perfect...we just have to remember what it is we are doing.

I know will get bashed for this post...but for what it is worth....just do our jobs...and do them right...don't stall then we will not need a stall recovery!

He only added roughly 70% power and yanked back hard on yoke while the pusher was trying to push the nose over to gain speed. By yanking back on the yoke at an already slow, nose high attitude made the stall a full blown stall. He also tried to correct the stall with ailerons. It appears that had they just done a standard stall recovery of full power, level the nose they would have been accelerating and climbing out to a recovery. The plane was flying just fine until they got slow and stalled. It didnt start banking until after he pulled back and put it into a full stall. on top of that the crew wasnt on the same page which only made the situation worse.

Idle power, level flight, increasing drag and lack of SA is bad news regardless of what plane its in. Stay alert out there fellas.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Smarta$$ wrote:



Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

 

[SLOTH]

You know what's really sad is that when anyone criticizes or Monday morning quarterbacks a crash for any of the major airlines, they get an immediate scolding. Now you guys are doing the same to a regional crash, and all is well? WTF!!!

 

[Superpilot92]

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

Its not really monday morning quarterbacking, its about learning from others mistakes to ensure they dont happen again.

I agree, people stuck on this whole flap movement are ignoring the fact that he put it into a full stall first. While i agree with the fact that she shouldnt have just put the flaps up with out prompting, it had little to do with the situation. They werent on the same page at all, had she said SPEED instead of UHHH maybe the outcome would have been different, who knows.

They got slow because of a lack of SA. If you get slow, go full power (not 70%) and you level the nose to build up the speed. IMHO yanking back on the yoke followed by an attempt to correct the roll in a stall with ailerons is what did them in. I dont think it would have rolled at all had they just done a standard stall recovery.

Just like in a training aircraft if you get slow and get the stall warning and then abruptly pull back even more your just going to make the wing stall harder. That usually is followed by one wing stalling more than the other and a potential for a spin comes quickly after that.

All the talking and debating in the world wont bring anyone back unfortunatly. Sad for all involved

 

[tailhookah]

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

No I don't. Read the whole post first and not one of my later posts out of context. He did a lot wrong... he got them into the stall and didn't react well to it. But nonetheless he was keeping the AC mostly wings level and things didn't get real bad until the flaps started to come up. He left the power off while configuring and didn't add full power when the shaker went off. Also he pulled up... but as soon as the flaps started moving up is when the "departure" came. Big difference between a departure and a stall. How many of you are trained in an aircraft for out of control flight? You can fly a plane in a deep stall for a long time... but a departure? No... you flip over and point 70-80 degrees down... you have maybe seconds to react at that altitude to maybe get out of it.

Where's all her help? Calling out airspeeds and altitudes and backing up the PF... he screwed up but he was buying time although w/ a crappy technique, things didn't get real bad until the flaps were retracted. Study the film. Maybe there was some icing that helped make it worse, but surley the flaps being brought up at that time was a critical error that was uncommanded by the PF and Captain! She would've helped much more had she just shut up and done nothing... bring up the flaps? Get real guys... it's a move that most likely cost them and their pax their lives!

Tail...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Tail, they were done long before she (or no one has speculated on this- he) put the flaps up. They were already in the final dive when the flaps were commanded up.

All indications were that the FO had retreated into "her place" and froze. I think it's a distinct possibility that the CA reached over and put them up. It follows with the knee jerk reaction movements that he was doing.