New WSJ article on awful Pilot Pay in Colgan crash

[tailhookah]

Smarta$$ wrote:

Your........ an idiot. And dangerous, if you think that is in any way proper stall recovery, at any point, from start to finish, from this captain. There is no flap position that can over come an airplane pitched up 20 degrees at sub 100 knots. Can't do it.

Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

 

[clippyrip]

Well I watched the annimation...

Where can the animation be found?

 

[scrub]

Where can the animation be found?

Right here on FI!!!!!!

 

[jonjuan]

Smarta$$ wrote:



Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

Moving the flap lever doesn't mean immediate flap movement or I guess you already realized this (the flaps are sloooow moving on the Q and weren't fully retracted until about a second prior to impact.) Of course I'll bet most of your flying is done via MS 2000.

 

[Superpilot92]

Well I watched the annimation...I guess they did add power...but the pitch up was excessive....It is sad....It should have never happened....we all have to remember to pay attention to what we are doing...we forget it sometimes but we do have lives at stake. The pay may suck...the hours may suck...the commute may suck...but we chose to do the job...so we should do it and do it right. Not that any of us is perfect...we just have to remember what it is we are doing.

I know will get bashed for this post...but for what it is worth....just do our jobs...and do them right...don't stall then we will not need a stall recovery!

He only added roughly 70% power and yanked back hard on yoke while the pusher was trying to push the nose over to gain speed. By yanking back on the yoke at an already slow, nose high attitude made the stall a full blown stall. He also tried to correct the stall with ailerons. It appears that had they just done a standard stall recovery of full power, level the nose they would have been accelerating and climbing out to a recovery. The plane was flying just fine until they got slow and stalled. It didnt start banking until after he pulled back and put it into a full stall. on top of that the crew wasnt on the same page which only made the situation worse.

Idle power, level flight, increasing drag and lack of SA is bad news regardless of what plane its in. Stay alert out there fellas.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Smarta$$ wrote:



Us idiots spell you are as you're... secondly if you think that raising the flaps didn't put that tough situation into a no-win then you sir are the idiot... he wasn't doing a text book recovery but he also wasn't losing altitude... that all happened when she raised the flaps and flipped the plane into an adverse yaw departure... that's upside down for you Smarta$$.

A proper stall recovery should not lose any altitude or minimal (less than 50') loss at best. But if some FO puts up your flaps mid recovery then I'd bet even Chuck Yeager himself can't get out of it w/o a major loss of altitude. He probably didn't even hear her when she said she put the flaps up... when the plane flipped over it was all over... they were only about 1600 AGL when that happened.

Tail'

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

 

[SLOTH]

You know what's really sad is that when anyone criticizes or Monday morning quarterbacks a crash for any of the major airlines, they get an immediate scolding. Now you guys are doing the same to a regional crash, and all is well? WTF!!!

 

[Superpilot92]

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

Its not really monday morning quarterbacking, its about learning from others mistakes to ensure they dont happen again.

I agree, people stuck on this whole flap movement are ignoring the fact that he put it into a full stall first. While i agree with the fact that she shouldnt have just put the flaps up with out prompting, it had little to do with the situation. They werent on the same page at all, had she said SPEED instead of UHHH maybe the outcome would have been different, who knows.

They got slow because of a lack of SA. If you get slow, go full power (not 70%) and you level the nose to build up the speed. IMHO yanking back on the yoke followed by an attempt to correct the roll in a stall with ailerons is what did them in. I dont think it would have rolled at all had they just done a standard stall recovery.

Just like in a training aircraft if you get slow and get the stall warning and then abruptly pull back even more your just going to make the wing stall harder. That usually is followed by one wing stalling more than the other and a potential for a spin comes quickly after that.

All the talking and debating in the world wont bring anyone back unfortunatly. Sad for all involved

 

[tailhookah]

Tail, I don't get it. Do you really think the primary cause was the FO putting the flaps from 10 to up?

You really think the yanking on the yoke and the bank and the power settings come after that?

No I don't. Read the whole post first and not one of my later posts out of context. He did a lot wrong... he got them into the stall and didn't react well to it. But nonetheless he was keeping the AC mostly wings level and things didn't get real bad until the flaps started to come up. He left the power off while configuring and didn't add full power when the shaker went off. Also he pulled up... but as soon as the flaps started moving up is when the "departure" came. Big difference between a departure and a stall. How many of you are trained in an aircraft for out of control flight? You can fly a plane in a deep stall for a long time... but a departure? No... you flip over and point 70-80 degrees down... you have maybe seconds to react at that altitude to maybe get out of it.

Where's all her help? Calling out airspeeds and altitudes and backing up the PF... he screwed up but he was buying time although w/ a crappy technique, things didn't get real bad until the flaps were retracted. Study the film. Maybe there was some icing that helped make it worse, but surley the flaps being brought up at that time was a critical error that was uncommanded by the PF and Captain! She would've helped much more had she just shut up and done nothing... bring up the flaps? Get real guys... it's a move that most likely cost them and their pax their lives!

Tail...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Tail, they were done long before she (or no one has speculated on this- he) put the flaps up. They were already in the final dive when the flaps were commanded up.

All indications were that the FO had retreated into "her place" and froze. I think it's a distinct possibility that the CA reached over and put them up. It follows with the knee jerk reaction movements that he was doing.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said before. This is a horrible error chain that was not broken. One event changed and they would have been talking about this over beers, and we would not taking about this over the loss of all of those people.

Learn from this. Next time you want to do something that is not along the FOM guidelines, hopefully this will come to your mind. If it does you are what defines a professional.

 

[firstthird]

I think the transcript shows her as saying "I put the flaps up" or something like that. But I agree, that action was so far into the sequence of events that even though it is A link in the chain, it is not one of the most important or preventable. I think they were around 90 aob at the time and probably only had a second or two left to positively effect a change to the outcome. the previous 30 seconds when airspeed bled off and and then the incorrect stall recovery are the links that are most likely to be changed in the future.

 

[Whine Lover]

"...Learn from this. Next time you want to do something that is not along the FOM guidelines..."


So, in your opinion, is there never a circumstance to willingly disregard the FOM/Approved Procedures/Checklist?

Because I can tell you without question, there are times where doing exactly what the book says will cause you more trouble than it is worth.

I learned at an very early age ...Don't be a " Procedures Monkey" .

Think before you act.

Granted, in this and many other situations the luxury of time to think is not afforded.


YKMKR

 

[GoPats]

Can someone provide a link for the animation?

I can't find it.

Thanks.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

"...Learn from this. Next time you want to do something that is not along the FOM guidelines..."


So, in your opinion, is there never a circumstance to willingly disregard the FOM/Approved Procedures/Checklist?

Because I can tell you without question, there are times where doing exactly what the book says will cause you more trouble than it is worth.

I learned at a very early age ...Don't be a " Procedures Monkey" .

Think before you act.

Granted, in this and many other situations the luxury of time to think is not afforded.


YKMKR

Agreed, but the point was and is, that doing something that you have never seen before is generally not the correct action to take.
I agree that we as professionals need to think and act accordingly, but when you go so far out side the box or bubble as my employer like to say, there is little protection that they can offer. I was not referring to being a "procedures monkey." But everyone of those checklists better be enunciated clearly for the CVR.

 

[Whine Lover]

"...doing something that you have never seen before is generally not the correct action to take. "


Are you referring to the co-pilot throwing up the flaps arbitrarily?

If so, I would have to agree.


"..everyone of those checklists better be enunciated clearly for the CVR. "

Here I might differ. I once had to tell my crew, against their better judgement , on the CVR , while totally throwing CRM out the window, that we would not be following the checklist and/or approved procedures.

Had we followed the checklist we would have made a big mess that would have wound up with A) ( Best Case ) a huge inconvenience, needless paperwork, media attention, and negative publicity... or B) ( Worst Case) Corpses strewn across central Florida.

Remember, the folks who write ( and endlessly re-write ) checklists and procedures for airplanes that have been flown by 20 different carriers over 30 some odd years are generally just line pilots who are trying to re-invent the wheel, or just build a better mousetrap. Sometimes they hit the mark. Sometimes, they don't.

We're all Human.

Godspeed Captain Renslow, First Officer Shaw, and Pax.

Over, and out.


YKMKR

 

[ACL65PILOT]

If I am thinking of the checklist you are talking about then I agree. ( There are a few checklists that are poorly written and have dire consequence is you follow them in sequence) I am referring to normal ops. (Emergency and abnormals are just that.)

I am referring to the Flaps being retracted and the pulling on the pusher. Two things that go against ALMOST all training.
If this airplane was susceptible to tail plane icing they would have been train for those procedures.

 

[Whine Lover]

" I am referring to the Flaps being retracted and the pulling on the pusher.'

Noted and agreed.

"There but for The Grace of God....."


YKMKR

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

No I don't. Read the whole post first and not one of my later posts out of context. He did a lot wrong... he got them into the stall and didn't react well to it. But nonetheless he was keeping the AC mostly wings level and things didn't get real bad until the flaps started to come up. He left the power off while configuring and didn't add full power when the shaker went off. Also he pulled up... but as soon as the flaps started moving up is when the "departure" came. Big difference between a departure and a stall. How many of you are trained in an aircraft for out of control flight? You can fly a plane in a deep stall for a long time... but a departure? No... you flip over and point 70-80 degrees down... you have maybe seconds to react at that altitude to maybe get out of it.

Where's all her help? Calling out airspeeds and altitudes and backing up the PF... he screwed up but he was buying time although w/ a crappy technique, things didn't get real bad until the flaps were retracted. Study the film. Maybe there was some icing that helped make it worse, but surley the flaps being brought up at that time was a critical error that was uncommanded by the PF and Captain! She would've helped much more had she just shut up and done nothing... bring up the flaps? Get real guys... it's a move that most likely cost them and their pax their lives!

Tail...

Tail,

The plane was in a 90 degree bank to the right when she selected flaps up. Someone has posted that the flaps move pretty slowly in that area, so I doubt the flaps went to zero like "that."

Aerodynamics 101 tells me that a bank of 90 degrees has a much bigger effect on stall speed than changing the flap deflection by 10 degrees. Trying to use the ailerons to correct the roll probably had more effect as well.

It's a crew, and neither one was helping matters much, but this was literally a stick and rudder issue.

 

[Lear70]

Anyone who thinks he was reacting while thinking "tailplane icing" is likely barking up the wrong tree IMHO. While not being a mind reader, ANYONE who understands tailplane icing would understand that the shaker/pusher would NOT be going off in a tail stall. He was likely thinking he was already at a low altitude and was trying to fly it out without getting closer to the ground and made two critical mistakes: failed to add emergency power and overrode the shaker/pusher and pulled it up into a full stall. She was "out to lunch", and the CA should have been weeded out a long time ago. The end.

Terrible tragedy. I hope the families get some comfort out of the regulatory changes that are coming. There's no way they can change where you live (restricting commuting is just asinine, won't happen), but I would bet money they'll probably put a cap on checkride failures to maintain your ATP. 5 is just inexcusable.