New Virgin Pay Rates

[Chairman]

Point being they can promise the moon and the stars now, it's so many years away everything will be changed for better or worse. Might as well say year 12 pay is $1 million per hour. When another airline says their year 12 pay is $xxx per hour they mean it, there are guys actually getting that money.

Realistically the top guy at VA is year 5, and this pay raise takes him from $123 to $127 an hour. It is tough to make too many direct comparisons, because at most other airlines a year 5 guy is not an Airbus Captain. But at JetBlue, a year 5 Airbus Captain makes $145 an hour with better work rules to boot. At Delta, a hypothetical year 5 Airbus Captain makes $166 an hour. United $141, American $157, Alaska $159, Hawaiian $160, Southwest $200 (!!!) Frontier $133, US Air West $127, US Air East $116, Spirit $116.

When you factor that many of the airlines above have better pay in other ways (profit sharing, B funds, higher guarantees, etc) you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

As you say we don't have 12 year captains, No legacy company has 5 year Captains either...

 

[Mud]

I go to step 5 soon and am nowhere near the top of the list. The top step for actual guys on property is murky. Pre-launch got certain deals, and pre-launch check airmen certain deals on top of that. Still, the point that the new scales are low is clearly obvious.

My two cents: These scales put us at a livable wage from which to work from and improve, or, from which to hunker down during the time it takes to get a CBA. In a recent in-house straw poll 84% agreed some type of organization was needed with roughly 30% voting. That was before this bump, so it wil be interesting to see how or if attitudes change post-bump.

 

[ackattacker]

As you say we don't have 12 year captains, No legacy company has 5 year Captains either...

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years. Another way to look at your point is that every other Airbus Captain in the sky makes far, far more than you guys since they're at 12 year pay and you guys are at 5 year pay.

Apples and oranges. I realize at this point I'm just being argumentative.

 

[blackbox]

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years. Another way to look at your point is that every other Airbus Captain in the sky makes far, far more than you guys since they're at 12 year pay and you guys are at 5 year pay.

Apples and oranges. I realize at this point I'm just being argumentative.

This is starting to get annoying. How are you gonna compare 5 year pay to 12 year pay? Pay is subpar at VX, I dont think you will get any argument over that. But every pilot thinks they should be getting paid more unless you are at UPS, SWA, or FDX.

For a start up, what would be a reasonable payrate? to start right at industry avg? That would be nice, and I am sure the pilots are constantly trying to achieve higher pay. But its not gonna happen overnight. They have been getting a pay raise every year from what I understand. What more do you want ? They arent making money, yet. So its not like the company is packing away cash. No airline has started out at industry avg. pay. What was jetblue's payscale when it first started?

The massive paycuts the majors had to endure the last 10 years wasnt due to jetblue, or spirit, or VX having lower payscales. It was 9/11, high oil prices, avian bird flu, etc...No one was making money. If they arent making money, they have nothing to pay you with. Contrary to what you may think, Airlines dont exist to solely make the you, the pilot, rich.

If you work for another airline and your management says we cant give you raises because of VX, your negotiating committee's response should be why not? For every VX, there is a FDX or SWA. And if your company is making money that argument should work even better, since VX isnt. And If your NC cant convey that to management, you need to appoint new negotiators.

Yes, I understand pattern bargaining. And I am sure VX pilots are using exactly that to get their pay up. They are a new company and growing. Give them time. If its 2017 ( 10 years after launch) and their pay is still crap, then blast away. But not now, give them a chance.

 

[Flyer1015]

I like the two-face in this thread.

When NEDude points out the 12 year VA payrate is 105% of the average o the 4 legacy carriers, people write:

You don't have any 12 year captains, nor any contract guaranteeing that pay when you get there, so that pay rate is fantasy.

and yet,

Realistically the top guy at VA is year 5, and this pay raise takes him from $123 to $127 an hour. It is tough to make too many direct comparisons, because at most other airlines a year 5 guy is not an Airbus Captain. But at JetBlue, a year 5 Airbus Captain makes $145 an hour with better work rules to boot. At Delta, a hypothetical year 5 Airbus Captain makes $166 an hour. United $141, American $157, Alaska $159, Hawaiian $160, Southwest $200 (!!!) Frontier $133, US Air West $127, US Air East $116, Spirit $116.

When you factor that many of the airlines above have better pay in other ways (profit sharing, B funds, higher guarantees, etc) you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways. You refuse to acknowledge a 12 yr payrate at Virgin because no one is on the 12 year mark, but in your OWN argument, you allow using "hypothetical" 5th year Captains at legacies, when there are NONE.

Gotta love it!

Hypothetically allowing only what YOU see fit!




Fact: There are no 5 year legacy Airbus A320 Captains.
Fact: There are 4 and 5 year VA A320 Captains.
Fact: These VA pilots make more than legacy A320 pilots.

 

[Flyer1015]

FACT:

The new VA payrates for ALL FO longevity, 1-12, are HIGHER than United's FO A320 for all longevity FOs, HIGHER than US Airways East and America West rates for all longevity, higher than Continental 737-300 and 500 rates for years 1-7 as FO, and either higher or equivalent to Spirit's FO rates.

For Captain side, look at all longevity 1-12:

VA: 105-150
United: 123-137
Continental: 31-150
AWA: 121-142
US Air: 25-125


And VA ratres are higher than Allegiant, Sun Country, Miami Air,





While not industry leading by any means (JetBlue and Delta are highest A320 rates), saying this:

you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

is definitely false.

These new VA rates are industry average (if not slightly higher than industry average) for the Airbus A320, defined by taking all A320 operators in the country and averaging out their rates.

 

[Flyer1015]

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years.

JetBlue has a 5 year upgrade on the Bus for somebody that started 5 years ago. The majority of Bus deliveries are DONE for, and there are hardly any retirements. If you're hired today, it will be much longer than 5 years to hold Bus Captain at JetBlue. Just ask any Blue guy. And Airways "probably" will be in a few years? Pure speculation on your part.

 

[rod farva]

So sad

 

[NEDude]

The only way to make a valid pay comparison is straight across: year to year, seat to seat, aircraft type to aircraft type. The reason being is that pay in this industry is based entirely on seniority and longevity within your own company - and it is that way because the unions wanted it that way. To try and compare the senior pilot at United to the senior pilot at Virgin is not valid because you cannot take your seniority and longevity from United and bring it to Virgin. Had the unions pushed for a national seniority/longevity list back when they actually had some clout, then it could be a valid argument.

I am not going to defend our new rates as being adequate or good, but they are an improvement that at least puts our hourly rates on par with the rest of the industry. Now we need to work on the rules and benefits.

As for some for some of the other arguments:

That these are paper rates and no guarantee they will be there at year 12: What guarantee do you have that your union rates will be there in five to seven years? Union contracts are about as valuable as the paper they are written on - and I could buy the paper for a couple of bucks. The revolving door bankruptcies of the last decade have proven that union contracts can be tossed aside like common trash on a whim. The American guys are about to find that out unfortunately. The reality is there are no guarantees in this industry and ANYONE who thinks their pay is protected is living in a fools paradise.

You are basically treading water due to inflation: True that when accounting for inflation the raise does not grow as much. But most union contracts only include a 1-2% adjustment annually, given that inflation has exceeded 2% annually in recent years, most union contractual adjustments have failed to even tread water, they are sinking further behind. In the past year pilots at Virgin have received 2 pay raises. I have seen pay in my seat and current longevity grow by 25% in less than two years (a third year FO was at $60 on May 1 2010 and will now be at $75 on April 1 2012 - a 25% increase), which far beats inflation and any union guaranteed raises in that time frame.

 

[tzskipper]

The only way to make a valid pay comparison is straight across: year to year, seat to seat, aircraft type to aircraft type. The reason being is that pay in this industry is based entirely on seniority and longevity within your own company - and it is that way because the unions wanted it that way. To try and compare the senior pilot at United to the senior pilot at Virgin is not valid because you cannot take your seniority and longevity from United and bring it to Virgin. Had the unions pushed for a national seniority/longevity list back when they actually had some clout, then it could be a valid argument.

Imo, about the only viable comparison would be to take the current pay range of the most junior to most senior pilot in the specific seat. I say this, as negotiating "capital" is not wasted in seniority areas where there are no (nor ever will be) actual pilots in that seat/seniority range.

S