New Virgin Pay Rates

[Flyer1015]

Confirmed for dumbest poster in FI history.

I'm not even the biggest fan of either of these carriers, but Spirit's future is much brighter than Virgin's....

Best of luck though, bro.

Those were some true facts. It isn't the first time ALPA sold out their junior pilots to gain more on the senior side. History repeats itself. But it is fact: Spirit not only cut first year pay down to 38.50, it also stays there the entire duration for first year. I never stated that Spirit's future was better or worse than anyone else. You drew your own conclusion on that one.

 

[I_Love_Lamp]

Those were some true facts. It isn't the first time ALPA sold out their junior pilots to gain more on the senior side. History repeats itself. But it is fact: Spirit not only cut first year pay down to 38.50, it also stays there the entire duration for first year. I never stated that Spirit's future was better or worse than anyone else. You drew your own conclusion on that one.

How many years do you spend on first year pay? How many years do you spend on 2+ year pay?

There's your answer, sparky.

 

[blackbox]

100% correct! Start-ups cannot afford to pay pilots an industry standard wage. For proof you can see that they pay only 1/3 the rate for landing fees. 1/4 the rate for de-icing fluid; catering only charges 75% of the normal rate. The insurance company only charges 80% for policies and the lawyers work for minimum wage. Management gets terrible compensation with no stock options either! It's just life at a start-up. Everyone pulls for less. If you find I am wrong with my numbers, do you think industry level pay for pilots should be a cost of doing business or should pilots be singled out to bear a large portion of the cost to get the airline profitable? I dont see the lawyers or insurance company taking less than what their expertise is worth.

I see what you are getting at, however Labor costs are the only things that are within the company's control. When an airline files BK, wages are cut, manning is reduced etc..., but I am pretty sure landing fees, de-ice fluid, catering are still same price for BK airlines as they are for ones making money. If you lose your job, and barely getting by on an unemployment check, McDonalds still cost you the same. However you can give your child a smaller allowance. Its the only thing you have control over.

Plus no one has answered my question of Jetblue's first payscale. Or any other airlines for that matter.

 

[NEDude]

When my airline went through the bankruptcy process, the lead-up to which looked eerily similar to what you guys are going through right now BTW, I started learning everything I could about airline financials.

So no, I'm not a financial expert. I can read. I know my way around Form 41 data and the BTS website, however. I also know how to go to virginamerica.com, then click about us, then click press releases, then click the appropriate link. You should try all of those things, put down the glass, then let me know if you arrive at a different conclusions than I have. Just because I'm not telling you what you want to hear or that you don't like my posts doesn't necessarily mean that I'm lying or trying to BS anyone.

Been furloughed three times and my last company just shut down the doors a few days ago, I am pretty familiar with what a troubled airline looks like. VX doesn't look anything like that.

I don't know what you are trying to convince me of. Perhaps that I should leave because VX might be in trouble in the future based on what you are reading? Or is it that I should not take a pay raise when offered? Please explain it to me. Because of having been through those three furloughs and watching one of my former employers die, I know from experience no airline job is entirely secure, not one. Several friends here at VX thought their job at UAL or USAirways was secure. There are 100+ UPS guys who felt their job was secure as well. Yes, VX could be gone in a year or two, but it could also have gone public and have lots of money on hand. I am here to ride it out, and so far it has been very beneficial to me financially and I am enjoying the ride. So please explain to me what you think you are going to convince me of or what it is you are trying to get me to do.

 

[ASADFW7]

First pay scales need to be adjusted for inflation to today's dollars to be a fair comparison. That is hard to do.

 

[Flyer1015]

How many years do you spend on first year pay? How many years do you spend on 2+ year pay?

There's your answer, sparky.

That's exactly the mentality that has screwed the junior side. I still can't believe people find it acceptable to take a bottom barrel first year wage and justify it that "it gets better.". No wonder Continental was able to get away with 29.97/HR first year and no medical for 6 months! Dumb people like you would work for free at a major your first year.

It doesn't matter how long you're on first year pay. It still doesn't change the fact that, as usual, first year pay was sold out to gain for the senior side.

 

[blackbox]

First pay scales need to be adjusted for inflation to today's dollars to be a fair comparison. That is hard to do.

I am not asking you to compare it to VX. I am asking you to compare it to the other established airlines of its time.

 

[727C47]

The rationalization the VA guys go through on this thread is amazing. But hey, if that keeps you going every day........more power to you.

Regardless, it is a pay raise your airline can't afford to pay and is hastening the inevitable. But I guess when you have 150M of other people's money to burn through, it's no skin off your management's nose.

When are the 2011 4th quarter numbers coming out? I haven't read anything from your airline stating when they will be posted.

Since when is united guy criticizing anybody?

 

[ualdriver]

Been furloughed three times and my last company just shut down the doors a few days ago, I am pretty familiar with what a troubled airline looks like. VX doesn't look anything like that.

Yup, you're right. My mistake. Silly me. I always get my positive and negative numbers mixed up when I read airline financial publications! VA is in great financial shape!

 

[ualdriver]

Since when is united guy criticizing anybody?

Well, it's been at least since that post you quoted.

 

[NEDude]

Yup, you're right. My mistake. Silly me. I always get my positive and negative numbers mixed up when I read airline financial publications! VA is in great financial shape!

Since you chose to respond with nonsense and not answer the direct question posed to you, I take it you are just trying to be a flamer.

On a serious note, there is a BIG difference in the financials between a young growing private company, and a long established, stagnant, public company. In the year plus leading up to the United bankruptcy the company was parking entire fleets of aircraft and furloughing thousands of employees.

Virgin is less than five years old, privately held, and expanding at a rate of 35% or greater per year, in the wake of the largest economic slowdown in 70 years. You have no insight into the business plan, mindset of the board of directors, or the kind of ROI the investors are getting. The company continues to grow, two new airplanes arrived in January and a new destination was announced. A new simulator facility opens in SFO in March. A pay raise for flight crews was just announced. Those are not characteristics of a company on the verge of shutting down. They were not the characteristics displayed by United leading up to its bankruptcy either.

Here are some more direct questions, although I am sure I will not get a response from you, just more nonsense. Was United growing significantly in the time leading up to its bankruptcy, or was is parking aircraft and furloughing employees? Do you have insight as to what goes on in the minds of the investors or the board of directors at Virgin America? Do you feel that employees of a growing company, who just got a pay raise, should return to the unemployment line because in your expert opinion things look bleak?

 

[ualdriver]

Since you chose to respond with nonsense and not answer the direct question posed to you, I take it you are just trying to be a flamer.

On a serious note, there is a BIG difference in the financials between a young growing private company, and a long established, stagnant, public company. In the year plus leading up to the United bankruptcy the company was parking entire fleets of aircraft and furloughing thousands of employees.

Virgin is less than five years old, privately held, and expanding at a rate of 35% or greater per year, in the wake of the largest economic slowdown in 70 years. You have no insight into the business plan, mindset of the board of directors, or the kind of ROI the investors are getting. The company continues to grow, two new airplanes arrived in January and a new destination was announced. A new simulator facility opens in SFO in March. A pay raise for flight crews was just announced. Those are not characteristics of a company on the verge of shutting down. They were not the characteristics displayed by United leading up to its bankruptcy either.

Here are some more direct questions, although I am sure I will not get a response from you, just more nonsense. Was United growing significantly in the time leading up to its bankruptcy, or was is parking aircraft and furloughing employees? Do you have insight as to what goes on in the minds of the investors or the board of directors at Virgin America? Do you feel that employees of a growing company, who just got a pay raise, should return to the unemployment line because in your expert opinion things look bleak?

Nonsense? You're kidding, right? After you posted, "Been furloughed three times and my last company just shut down the doors a few days ago, I am pretty familiar with what a troubled airline looks like. VX doesn't look anything like that......."

So VA doesn't look like a troubled airline to you? If you believe THAT NONSENSE, then I don't know what to tell you. Whether you like it or not, VA is among the worst financially performing airline in the US right now when even legacy airlines are making money for pete's sake. When an airline only has one profitable quarter over a number of years, that is what a troubled airline looks like. When an airline is borrowing money from a hedge fund to stay afloat, that is what a troubled airline looks like.

Just because an airline is adding airplanes and expanding doesn't mean "all is well." Hello, Skybus anyone? He11, there were tons of upstart airlines in the mid to late 90's that grew rapidly, lost money until they ran out of cash, then died. Heck, the CEO of Skybus was in the press practically up to the last day telling everyone how wonderful things were while taking deliveries of shiny new Airbus aircraft.

Read your own quarterly reports. I even showed you how to find them in a previous post. In a previous thread, I explained where to see your airline's losses. The airline is hemorrhaging cash. Your management team is trying to put a pretty face on a really ugly situation and they have to. They have to keep up the appearance of "all is well" to both employees and the financial community. If they don't, they're not going to be able to secure that next tranche of cash when the 150M you guys just got gets burned through and they need perky, happy employees to keep the customers coming.

Just because I'm a United pilot and my airline sucks, doesn't change the facts concerning your airline's really bad situation. So to answer your questions, yes United parked a bunch of airplanes the days after 9/11 and shrunk tremendously in and after bankruptcy. I definitely don't know what is in the mind of VA's investors, other than I think they are crazy. I don't know what is in the mind of VA's board, or even if they have a traditional board as they are privately held. I just know that they're doing a really bad job running your airline and have lost a lot of other people's money. The last question makes no sense. I think VA employees will likely be on an unemployment line in the future, but I don't feel they should go there now. I do think they should start looking for another job, however. It's easier to find a job when you have one, for now anyway.

 

[Ralph Cramden]

Hey NEDude. Give it a rest.

You will never change our detractors minds. It is futile to even try. It is also better for our competitors to underestimate us.

Let them post their half baked opinions, it is nothing.

As for the true state of VA finance, only our board of directors really know, and they certainly aren't telling anybody. For now the fuel trucks show up on time, MX is meeting every flight and there are no problems at hotel check in. If those items start being an issue, it is time to bail, if not, enjoy the view and smile.

Cheers!

 

[Mud]

At my last place we got a new juicy contract, resolved all of our grievances favorably, kept hiring, and then one afternoon closed the doors after 62 years. There is no internal look to what BK looks like except financials. VX's published financials are bleak at best. I work there, I hear the inside scoop, but the numbers are bleak. However, the fat lady hasn't sung yet. 2012 is an important year, perhaps make or break, considering they are publicly talking about an Ipo in the near future. For that to happen VX must show profits if it can. If it can't, well....

That said I'm not going anywhere. Starting over sucks and in our airline system seniority is everything, so it's worth rolling the dice for a few years. What am I gambling, the chance to make year 1 or 2 pay somewhere else? And if a new guy wants to show up and give it a go for a few years, why not? (for the same reason)

Yeah I know, "I'm bringing down industry wages" by doing this. The answer to that drumbeat has been discussed ad nauseum. As for overseas, I've seen enough of it to know I want to live here.

 

[ualdriver]

Hey NEDude. Give it a rest.

You will never change our detractors minds. It is futile to even try. It is also better for our competitors to underestimate us.

Let them post their half baked opinions, it is nothing.

As for the true state of VA finance, only our board of directors really know, and they certainly aren't telling anybody. For now the fuel trucks show up on time, MX is meeting every flight and there are no problems at hotel check in. If those items start being an issue, it is time to bail, if not, enjoy the view and smile.

Cheers!

Half baked opinion? Really? Only your BOD really knows and they aren't telling anyone?

Ralph.....SSSSHHHHHHHH.....I have a secret to show you! But you have to promise not to tell anyone, OK?

http://www.virginamerica.com/press-...rts-third-quarter-2011-financial-results.html

Click the link. Scroll about half way down. Read the number where "net income" crosses "9 months ending SEPT 30."

You can go to the "about us" section of your website and read their financial reports yourself. You can also go the BTS website and play around with crosstabs and such and compare yourself to other airlines.

For you, who got in on the ground floor, to tell your fellow pilots not to worry until the fuel trucks stop showing up is disingenuous at best. Maybe you're more concerned about your senior captain position then about their welfare? VA employees should DEFINITELY be looking at alternatives, especially with retirements starting at the majors in 10 months and hiring hopefully starting sooner than that in anticipation. If somehow VA turns years of significant losses around, then your fellow pilots are fine. If they don't and the credit card stops working, then they'll at least be ready to jump ship and not be caught flat footed following your advice.

 

[strobzz]

Well, it's been at least since that post you quoted.

ualdriver,there again.What Unionized airline did you fly Electras at for industry standard wages?

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,there again.What Unionized airline did you fly Electras at for industry standard wages?

They weren't unionized although we were trying to get a union on the property when I left AND were successful in doing so shortly after I left. So to answer your question, tell me what L-188 standard wages were in the 1990's, and I'll let you know if we undercut them or not.

 

[Flyer1015]

Ualdriver what's your point, again? That one should stick out being unemployed, or stay at an airline threatening paycuts and bankruptcy?

 

[Busdriver320]

I get what you are saying.

My point was more to the internet comparisons that people like to make. To me, the only true "apples to apples" comparison, is that of the rates pertaining to a seniority range that is actually being paid that rate. I mean nobody has a first year Captain, only a (most) junior and (most) senior individual in that seat. So why not compare the most active junior paid rate through the most active senior paid rate? Only this will truly indicate the relative standings of individual pay.



S

Exactly TZ. Its costs [fill in the blank] Airlines x-amount to crew an Airbus, y for the Capt and z for the FO. VA has had the benefit of 4+ years of startup wages to get the ball rolling, it's time to pay what it costs other airlines to crew an Airbus. Find the most similar airlines, then look at their most junior FO and Capt and that's what VA should be paying the same. Work it upwards from there. The gain that VA will still get is the most senior capt is no more than about 5 years seniority. The bottom to top range will be smaller than, say, Spirit because they have 7-8 year capts (?) and 20+ year capts.

 

[NEDude]

Nonsense? You're kidding, right? After you posted, "Been furloughed three times and my last company just shut down the doors a few days ago, I am pretty familiar with what a troubled airline looks like. VX doesn't look anything like that......."

So VA doesn't look like a troubled airline to you? If you believe THAT NONSENSE, then I don't know what to tell you. Whether you like it or not, VA is among the worst financially performing airline in the US right now when even legacy airlines are making money for pete's sake. When an airline only has one profitable quarter over a number of years, that is what a troubled airline looks like. When an airline is borrowing money from a hedge fund to stay afloat, that is what a troubled airline looks like.

Just because an airline is adding airplanes and expanding doesn't mean "all is well." Hello, Skybus anyone? He11, there were tons of upstart airlines in the mid to late 90's that grew rapidly, lost money until they ran out of cash, then died. Heck, the CEO of Skybus was in the press practically up to the last day telling everyone how wonderful things were while taking deliveries of shiny new Airbus aircraft.

Read your own quarterly reports. I even showed you how to find them in a previous post. In a previous thread, I explained where to see your airline's losses. The airline is hemorrhaging cash. Your management team is trying to put a pretty face on a really ugly situation and they have to. They have to keep up the appearance of "all is well" to both employees and the financial community. If they don't, they're not going to be able to secure that next tranche of cash when the 150M you guys just got gets burned through and they need perky, happy employees to keep the customers coming.

Just because I'm a United pilot and my airline sucks, doesn't change the facts concerning your airline's really bad situation. So to answer your questions, yes United parked a bunch of airplanes the days after 9/11 and shrunk tremendously in and after bankruptcy. I definitely don't know what is in the mind of VA's investors, other than I think they are crazy. I don't know what is in the mind of VA's board, or even if they have a traditional board as they are privately held. I just know that they're doing a really bad job running your airline and have lost a lot of other people's money. The last question makes no sense. I think VA employees will likely be on an unemployment line in the future, but I don't feel they should go there now. I do think they should start looking for another job, however. It's easier to find a job when you have one, for now anyway.

Do you even read what you write?

In one sentence you write that our financials are easy to find and understand. In the next you say our management has to put on a happy face for the financial community. Don't you think the financial community can see the easy to find and read quarterly reports? If the financial community is fooled by happy statements from management then they really are a pretty sad financial community.

I know what the reports say. Apparently you are forgetting the portions of the reports that state we are on the most solid financial ground in our history, with the most liquidity we have ever had.

As for Skybus, the comparisons are a bit weak. Just before launch there was a shakeup in the upper management that resulted in the dismissal of the original CEO. As for your assessment that things looked rosy at Skybus up until the end do not jive with actual history. The airline launched in May 2007 and by October, less than five months after start-up, there were warning signs as two destinations were cut and service reduced to another. In February 2008, less than nine months after launch, it was announced all service to the west coast would be dropped with the exception of one flight to BUR. In March, ten months into operations, more cutbacks were announced when previously planned services were dropped. On top of that the CEO resigned suddenly. In April 2008 Skybus shut the doors, less than 11 months into operations. Skybus lasted less than a year and never grew past 13 airplanes. The rosy outlook at Skybus lasted less than five months, despite what you chose to remember.

You said yourself that you don't know how our board operates or what is on the mind of the investors. I don't know either, but the best bet to find out is look at their behavior. Their behavior clearly indicates they believe the company is on par with what they thought it would be doing during growth and pre-IPO. I am sure they really do not care if you think they are crazy.