New Virgin Pay Rates

[Chairman]

Point being they can promise the moon and the stars now, it's so many years away everything will be changed for better or worse. Might as well say year 12 pay is $1 million per hour. When another airline says their year 12 pay is $xxx per hour they mean it, there are guys actually getting that money.

Realistically the top guy at VA is year 5, and this pay raise takes him from $123 to $127 an hour. It is tough to make too many direct comparisons, because at most other airlines a year 5 guy is not an Airbus Captain. But at JetBlue, a year 5 Airbus Captain makes $145 an hour with better work rules to boot. At Delta, a hypothetical year 5 Airbus Captain makes $166 an hour. United $141, American $157, Alaska $159, Hawaiian $160, Southwest $200 (!!!) Frontier $133, US Air West $127, US Air East $116, Spirit $116.

When you factor that many of the airlines above have better pay in other ways (profit sharing, B funds, higher guarantees, etc) you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

As you say we don't have 12 year captains, No legacy company has 5 year Captains either...

 

[Mud]

I go to step 5 soon and am nowhere near the top of the list. The top step for actual guys on property is murky. Pre-launch got certain deals, and pre-launch check airmen certain deals on top of that. Still, the point that the new scales are low is clearly obvious.

My two cents: These scales put us at a livable wage from which to work from and improve, or, from which to hunker down during the time it takes to get a CBA. In a recent in-house straw poll 84% agreed some type of organization was needed with roughly 30% voting. That was before this bump, so it wil be interesting to see how or if attitudes change post-bump.

 

[ackattacker]

As you say we don't have 12 year captains, No legacy company has 5 year Captains either...

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years. Another way to look at your point is that every other Airbus Captain in the sky makes far, far more than you guys since they're at 12 year pay and you guys are at 5 year pay.

Apples and oranges. I realize at this point I'm just being argumentative.

 

[blackbox]

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years. Another way to look at your point is that every other Airbus Captain in the sky makes far, far more than you guys since they're at 12 year pay and you guys are at 5 year pay.

Apples and oranges. I realize at this point I'm just being argumentative.

This is starting to get annoying. How are you gonna compare 5 year pay to 12 year pay? Pay is subpar at VX, I dont think you will get any argument over that. But every pilot thinks they should be getting paid more unless you are at UPS, SWA, or FDX.

For a start up, what would be a reasonable payrate? to start right at industry avg? That would be nice, and I am sure the pilots are constantly trying to achieve higher pay. But its not gonna happen overnight. They have been getting a pay raise every year from what I understand. What more do you want ? They arent making money, yet. So its not like the company is packing away cash. No airline has started out at industry avg. pay. What was jetblue's payscale when it first started?

The massive paycuts the majors had to endure the last 10 years wasnt due to jetblue, or spirit, or VX having lower payscales. It was 9/11, high oil prices, avian bird flu, etc...No one was making money. If they arent making money, they have nothing to pay you with. Contrary to what you may think, Airlines dont exist to solely make the you, the pilot, rich.

If you work for another airline and your management says we cant give you raises because of VX, your negotiating committee's response should be why not? For every VX, there is a FDX or SWA. And if your company is making money that argument should work even better, since VX isnt. And If your NC cant convey that to management, you need to appoint new negotiators.

Yes, I understand pattern bargaining. And I am sure VX pilots are using exactly that to get their pay up. They are a new company and growing. Give them time. If its 2017 ( 10 years after launch) and their pay is still crap, then blast away. But not now, give them a chance.

 

[Flyer1015]

I like the two-face in this thread.

When NEDude points out the 12 year VA payrate is 105% of the average o the 4 legacy carriers, people write:

You don't have any 12 year captains, nor any contract guaranteeing that pay when you get there, so that pay rate is fantasy.

and yet,

Realistically the top guy at VA is year 5, and this pay raise takes him from $123 to $127 an hour. It is tough to make too many direct comparisons, because at most other airlines a year 5 guy is not an Airbus Captain. But at JetBlue, a year 5 Airbus Captain makes $145 an hour with better work rules to boot. At Delta, a hypothetical year 5 Airbus Captain makes $166 an hour. United $141, American $157, Alaska $159, Hawaiian $160, Southwest $200 (!!!) Frontier $133, US Air West $127, US Air East $116, Spirit $116.

When you factor that many of the airlines above have better pay in other ways (profit sharing, B funds, higher guarantees, etc) you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways. You refuse to acknowledge a 12 yr payrate at Virgin because no one is on the 12 year mark, but in your OWN argument, you allow using "hypothetical" 5th year Captains at legacies, when there are NONE.

Gotta love it!

Hypothetically allowing only what YOU see fit!




Fact: There are no 5 year legacy Airbus A320 Captains.
Fact: There are 4 and 5 year VA A320 Captains.
Fact: These VA pilots make more than legacy A320 pilots.

 

[Flyer1015]

FACT:

The new VA payrates for ALL FO longevity, 1-12, are HIGHER than United's FO A320 for all longevity FOs, HIGHER than US Airways East and America West rates for all longevity, higher than Continental 737-300 and 500 rates for years 1-7 as FO, and either higher or equivalent to Spirit's FO rates.

For Captain side, look at all longevity 1-12:

VA: 105-150
United: 123-137
Continental: 31-150
AWA: 121-142
US Air: 25-125


And VA ratres are higher than Allegiant, Sun Country, Miami Air,





While not industry leading by any means (JetBlue and Delta are highest A320 rates), saying this:

you can see VA is still on or near the bottom.

is definitely false.

These new VA rates are industry average (if not slightly higher than industry average) for the Airbus A320, defined by taking all A320 operators in the country and averaging out their rates.

 

[Flyer1015]

JetBlue does and Airways probably will in a few years.

JetBlue has a 5 year upgrade on the Bus for somebody that started 5 years ago. The majority of Bus deliveries are DONE for, and there are hardly any retirements. If you're hired today, it will be much longer than 5 years to hold Bus Captain at JetBlue. Just ask any Blue guy. And Airways "probably" will be in a few years? Pure speculation on your part.

 

[rod farva]

So sad

 

[NEDude]

The only way to make a valid pay comparison is straight across: year to year, seat to seat, aircraft type to aircraft type. The reason being is that pay in this industry is based entirely on seniority and longevity within your own company - and it is that way because the unions wanted it that way. To try and compare the senior pilot at United to the senior pilot at Virgin is not valid because you cannot take your seniority and longevity from United and bring it to Virgin. Had the unions pushed for a national seniority/longevity list back when they actually had some clout, then it could be a valid argument.

I am not going to defend our new rates as being adequate or good, but they are an improvement that at least puts our hourly rates on par with the rest of the industry. Now we need to work on the rules and benefits.

As for some for some of the other arguments:

That these are paper rates and no guarantee they will be there at year 12: What guarantee do you have that your union rates will be there in five to seven years? Union contracts are about as valuable as the paper they are written on - and I could buy the paper for a couple of bucks. The revolving door bankruptcies of the last decade have proven that union contracts can be tossed aside like common trash on a whim. The American guys are about to find that out unfortunately. The reality is there are no guarantees in this industry and ANYONE who thinks their pay is protected is living in a fools paradise.

You are basically treading water due to inflation: True that when accounting for inflation the raise does not grow as much. But most union contracts only include a 1-2% adjustment annually, given that inflation has exceeded 2% annually in recent years, most union contractual adjustments have failed to even tread water, they are sinking further behind. In the past year pilots at Virgin have received 2 pay raises. I have seen pay in my seat and current longevity grow by 25% in less than two years (a third year FO was at $60 on May 1 2010 and will now be at $75 on April 1 2012 - a 25% increase), which far beats inflation and any union guaranteed raises in that time frame.

 

[tzskipper]

The only way to make a valid pay comparison is straight across: year to year, seat to seat, aircraft type to aircraft type. The reason being is that pay in this industry is based entirely on seniority and longevity within your own company - and it is that way because the unions wanted it that way. To try and compare the senior pilot at United to the senior pilot at Virgin is not valid because you cannot take your seniority and longevity from United and bring it to Virgin. Had the unions pushed for a national seniority/longevity list back when they actually had some clout, then it could be a valid argument.

Imo, about the only viable comparison would be to take the current pay range of the most junior to most senior pilot in the specific seat. I say this, as negotiating "capital" is not wasted in seniority areas where there are no (nor ever will be) actual pilots in that seat/seniority range.

S

 

[NEDude]

Imo, about the only viable comparison would be to take the current pay range of the most junior to most senior pilot in the specific seat. I say this, as negotiating "capital" is not wasted in seniority areas where there are no (nor ever will be) actual pilots in that seat/seniority range.

S

It would be nice if we could negotiate pay that way. But the reality is that is not the way the industry works, nor has it ever worked. Like it or not we all lost our longevity and seniority when we lost our other jobs. No airline in the United States would care if you had ten years in at United, or 25 years in at ATA, you start out at the most junior seat and pay when you start again. Let's just suppose that all pay scales were the same across the board regardless of company, every five year FO in an A320/B737 was paid XXX dollars, every ten year captain on an A320/B737 was paid XXX dollars and so on. If you had ten years seniority when you got furloughed, it would take you ten years at your new company to get back to where you were before.

I like your idea, but basically what you are asking is for Virgin to give us credit for other pilots longevity at other airlines - ie. the senior A320 pilot at United has 20 years in so the senior Virgin captain should get "credit" for the United pilots 20 years and get paid the same. No management in the world would go for that.

As for publishing rates where there are no pilots currently seated, even though we do not have 12 year captains yet, we will in less than seven years and we now have a benchmark to work from should we choose to unionize at some point. There is no point in publishing 1 or 2 year captains rates, and as best the crystal ball can tell right now it will be a long time before we see 12 year FOs. But I do like publishing a 12 year captain rate because it gives us a bench mark for future raises or contractual negotiations should it come to that.

 

[tzskipper]

I get what you are saying.

My point was more to the internet comparisons that people like to make. To me, the only true "apples to apples" comparison, is that of the rates pertaining to a seniority range that is actually being paid that rate. I mean nobody has a first year Captain, only a (most) junior and (most) senior individual in that seat. So why not compare the most active junior paid rate through the most active senior paid rate? Only this will truly indicate the relative standings of individual pay.

S

 

[ualdriver]

The rationalization the VA guys go through on this thread is amazing. But hey, if that keeps you going every day........more power to you.

Regardless, it is a pay raise your airline can't afford to pay and is hastening the inevitable. But I guess when you have 150M of other people's money to burn through, it's no skin off your management's nose.

When are the 2011 4th quarter numbers coming out? I haven't read anything from your airline stating when they will be posted.

 

[NEDude]

The rationalization the VA guys go through on this thread is amazing. But hey, if that keeps you going every day........more power to you.

Regardless, it is a pay raise your airline can't afford to pay and is hastening the inevitable. But I guess when you have 150M of other people's money to burn through, it's no skin off your management's nose.

When are the 2011 4th quarter numbers coming out? I haven't read anything from your airline stating when they will be posted.

Yet another FI airline financial 'expert'...

 

[curtaindriver]

JetBlue is most likely going to use the VA rates in our 2012 comparison...........so I'm happy to see any raise at all. Not just being selfish, I'm also happy for you guys to see a "bump".

CD

 

[ualdriver]

Yet another FI airline financial 'expert'...

When my airline went through the bankruptcy process, the lead-up to which looked eerily similar to what you guys are going through right now BTW, I started learning everything I could about airline financials.

So no, I'm not a financial expert. I can read. I know my way around Form 41 data and the BTS website, however. I also know how to go to virginamerica.com, then click about us, then click press releases, then click the appropriate link. You should try all of those things, put down the glass, then let me know if you arrive at a different conclusions than I have. Just because I'm not telling you what you want to hear or that you don't like my posts doesn't necessarily mean that I'm lying or trying to BS anyone.

 

[ROSWELL41]

As for the Spirit comparison, your rates do not have automatic raises as NK's do per year for the duration of the cba. Congrats on the raise, but figure out a way to get more each year and some work rules too.

 

[Flyer1015]

As for the Spirit comparison, your rates do not have automatic raises as NK's do per year for the duration of the cba. Congrats on the raise, but figure out a way to get more each year and some work rules too.

...except for first year Spirit pilots. Those were sold out from not only decreasing the pay from the mid 40s down to $38.50/hr, but also stuck on that rate with no raise on 1st year pay throughout entire duration of contract. Also, VA's Captains rates years 1-7 are actually higher than Spirit's Captain rates for 2012, and that was a contract they had to strike to get.

 

[I_Love_Lamp]

...except for first year Spirit pilots. Those were sold out from not only decreasing the pay from the mid 40s down to $38.50/hr, but also stuck on that rate with no raise on 1st year pay throughout entire duration of contract. Also, VA's Captains rates years 1-7 are actually higher than Spirit's Captain rates for 2012, and that was a contract they had to strike to get.

Confirmed for dumbest poster in FI history.

I'm not even the biggest fan of either of these carriers, but Spirit's future is much brighter than Virgin's....

Best of luck though, bro.

 

[Mamma]

This is starting to get annoying. How are you gonna compare 5 year pay to 12 year pay? Pay is subpar at VX, I dont think you will get any argument over that. But every pilot thinks they should be getting paid more unless you are at UPS, SWA, or FDX.

For a start up, what would be a reasonable payrate? to start right at industry avg? That would be nice, and I am sure the pilots are constantly trying to achieve higher pay. But its not gonna happen overnight. They have been getting a pay raise every year from what I understand. What more do you want ? They arent making money, yet. So its not like the company is packing away cash. No airline has started out at industry avg. pay. What was jetblue's payscale when it first .

100% correct! Start-ups cannot afford to pay pilots an industry standard wage. For proof you can see that they pay only 1/3 the rate for landing fees. 1/4 the rate for de-icing fluid; catering only charges 75% of the normal rate. The insurance company only charges 80% for policies and the lawyers work for minimum wage. Management gets terrible compensation with no stock options either! It's just life at a start-up. Everyone pulls for less. If you find I am wrong with my numbers, do you think industry level pay for pilots should be a cost of doing business or should pilots be singled out to bear a large portion of the cost to get the airline profitable? I dont see the lawyers or insurance company taking less than what their expertise is worth.