New Virgin Pay Rates

[NEDude]

Imo, about the only viable comparison would be to take the current pay range of the most junior to most senior pilot in the specific seat. I say this, as negotiating "capital" is not wasted in seniority areas where there are no (nor ever will be) actual pilots in that seat/seniority range.

S

It would be nice if we could negotiate pay that way. But the reality is that is not the way the industry works, nor has it ever worked. Like it or not we all lost our longevity and seniority when we lost our other jobs. No airline in the United States would care if you had ten years in at United, or 25 years in at ATA, you start out at the most junior seat and pay when you start again. Let's just suppose that all pay scales were the same across the board regardless of company, every five year FO in an A320/B737 was paid XXX dollars, every ten year captain on an A320/B737 was paid XXX dollars and so on. If you had ten years seniority when you got furloughed, it would take you ten years at your new company to get back to where you were before.

I like your idea, but basically what you are asking is for Virgin to give us credit for other pilots longevity at other airlines - ie. the senior A320 pilot at United has 20 years in so the senior Virgin captain should get "credit" for the United pilots 20 years and get paid the same. No management in the world would go for that.

As for publishing rates where there are no pilots currently seated, even though we do not have 12 year captains yet, we will in less than seven years and we now have a benchmark to work from should we choose to unionize at some point. There is no point in publishing 1 or 2 year captains rates, and as best the crystal ball can tell right now it will be a long time before we see 12 year FOs. But I do like publishing a 12 year captain rate because it gives us a bench mark for future raises or contractual negotiations should it come to that.

 

[tzskipper]

I get what you are saying.

My point was more to the internet comparisons that people like to make. To me, the only true "apples to apples" comparison, is that of the rates pertaining to a seniority range that is actually being paid that rate. I mean nobody has a first year Captain, only a (most) junior and (most) senior individual in that seat. So why not compare the most active junior paid rate through the most active senior paid rate? Only this will truly indicate the relative standings of individual pay.

S

 

[ualdriver]

The rationalization the VA guys go through on this thread is amazing. But hey, if that keeps you going every day........more power to you.

Regardless, it is a pay raise your airline can't afford to pay and is hastening the inevitable. But I guess when you have 150M of other people's money to burn through, it's no skin off your management's nose.

When are the 2011 4th quarter numbers coming out? I haven't read anything from your airline stating when they will be posted.

 

[NEDude]

The rationalization the VA guys go through on this thread is amazing. But hey, if that keeps you going every day........more power to you.

Regardless, it is a pay raise your airline can't afford to pay and is hastening the inevitable. But I guess when you have 150M of other people's money to burn through, it's no skin off your management's nose.

When are the 2011 4th quarter numbers coming out? I haven't read anything from your airline stating when they will be posted.

Yet another FI airline financial 'expert'...

 

[curtaindriver]

JetBlue is most likely going to use the VA rates in our 2012 comparison...........so I'm happy to see any raise at all. Not just being selfish, I'm also happy for you guys to see a "bump".

CD

 

[ualdriver]

Yet another FI airline financial 'expert'...

When my airline went through the bankruptcy process, the lead-up to which looked eerily similar to what you guys are going through right now BTW, I started learning everything I could about airline financials.

So no, I'm not a financial expert. I can read. I know my way around Form 41 data and the BTS website, however. I also know how to go to virginamerica.com, then click about us, then click press releases, then click the appropriate link. You should try all of those things, put down the glass, then let me know if you arrive at a different conclusions than I have. Just because I'm not telling you what you want to hear or that you don't like my posts doesn't necessarily mean that I'm lying or trying to BS anyone.

 

[ROSWELL41]

As for the Spirit comparison, your rates do not have automatic raises as NK's do per year for the duration of the cba. Congrats on the raise, but figure out a way to get more each year and some work rules too.

 

[Flyer1015]

As for the Spirit comparison, your rates do not have automatic raises as NK's do per year for the duration of the cba. Congrats on the raise, but figure out a way to get more each year and some work rules too.

...except for first year Spirit pilots. Those were sold out from not only decreasing the pay from the mid 40s down to $38.50/hr, but also stuck on that rate with no raise on 1st year pay throughout entire duration of contract. Also, VA's Captains rates years 1-7 are actually higher than Spirit's Captain rates for 2012, and that was a contract they had to strike to get.

 

[I_Love_Lamp]

...except for first year Spirit pilots. Those were sold out from not only decreasing the pay from the mid 40s down to $38.50/hr, but also stuck on that rate with no raise on 1st year pay throughout entire duration of contract. Also, VA's Captains rates years 1-7 are actually higher than Spirit's Captain rates for 2012, and that was a contract they had to strike to get.

Confirmed for dumbest poster in FI history.

I'm not even the biggest fan of either of these carriers, but Spirit's future is much brighter than Virgin's....

Best of luck though, bro.

 

[Mamma]

This is starting to get annoying. How are you gonna compare 5 year pay to 12 year pay? Pay is subpar at VX, I dont think you will get any argument over that. But every pilot thinks they should be getting paid more unless you are at UPS, SWA, or FDX.

For a start up, what would be a reasonable payrate? to start right at industry avg? That would be nice, and I am sure the pilots are constantly trying to achieve higher pay. But its not gonna happen overnight. They have been getting a pay raise every year from what I understand. What more do you want ? They arent making money, yet. So its not like the company is packing away cash. No airline has started out at industry avg. pay. What was jetblue's payscale when it first .

100% correct! Start-ups cannot afford to pay pilots an industry standard wage. For proof you can see that they pay only 1/3 the rate for landing fees. 1/4 the rate for de-icing fluid; catering only charges 75% of the normal rate. The insurance company only charges 80% for policies and the lawyers work for minimum wage. Management gets terrible compensation with no stock options either! It's just life at a start-up. Everyone pulls for less. If you find I am wrong with my numbers, do you think industry level pay for pilots should be a cost of doing business or should pilots be singled out to bear a large portion of the cost to get the airline profitable? I dont see the lawyers or insurance company taking less than what their expertise is worth.