New trend for AirTran negotiations?

[Lear70]

ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !!

I'm P2P. Not that it has helped much, since the NPA can't even get the Chief Pilot's office to let us display our lanyards and pins that identify us as such, therefore no one knows to approach us and ask questions.

I have been somewhat satisfied with the level of communication we're getting, but we're also getting some smoke and mirrors, too. People need to hear that important items are being addressed and pilots NEED to hear the steps that will be taken. We are WAY too result-oriented just to hear "yeah, we know about it, and we're working on it".

That said, every email to the P2P office HAS been received and replied within 24-48 hours every time with good information. I like that, and I'm happy to continue to help in what seems like a solid committee trying to help educate the pilot group.

ALPA National has nothing for us here at FL... Again..we are the union..its not just your tie tac fellas....think about it gentleman ..peace ..

I may be in the mirnoity; I may speaking out of school, so to speak, but I just don't feel it's a "tie tac" issue. The issue is apathy. PURE APATHY.

A large portion of the pilot group has become SO apathetic that you can't get them to do anything unless it ABSOLUTELY has to be done. They know that the contract likely won't get worse, and would rather take their increases, say thank you, and walk away. THOSE are your your biggest goal to get on board, and it is up to YOU, the UNION LEADERSHIP to take the high road, bring them all together, let them vent their anger, then show them how great your plans are and how you need them involved.

Same thing with the middle line pilots who think their voice is being ignored. Grab a bunch of P2P guys that fall in this category, get them educated on what the union plans for their group, then send them out to educate everyone else. Those who are still unhappy, bring 'em back in and let the NPA explain why they are working the deal they're doing for them. If they still don't like it, get the Wilson Polling data out and prove which way represents "MOST" of the pilot group. Can't please 'em all but SOME of them might start to understand.

Last, you keep the new guys 0-2 years informed just like everyone else. Do it when they come to the free food deal 'cause you know you can find them there! Come prepared to actually ANSWER the hard questions, not just to stir debate. Let them know how and where their part of the puzzle fits in.

THESE are the kinds of groundwork actions that need to be taken NOW so that 6-8 months from now, we have the solidarity throughout 90% of the pilot ranks to either vote YES or NO by large, sweeping numbers with large participation.

It takes a LOT of work, I'm willing to help as I've stated before, but we have to have the FULL support of the MEC and P2P in order to accomplish a program such as this with FIRM ANSWERS WHY things were done as they were over Christmas, New Years, SAP 2, and how it benefits us to do so. If we don't have the answers, people won't listen to us, either.

We can set the tide..we can make it tight...but it takes discussions like this ! A TA is close..and vote for what is fair and right....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

Well, it's definitely gonna be one or the other. I ain't going down without a fight, at least a small one, to try to change this small part of the equation I play into. I hope I get some guys who honestly want to give it a try like I said above, versus just going down and cornering the officials in front of the new-hires (that's the only time you get them all together like that) and get some straightforward answers, then take it back to the line ourselves.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, don't know how you've gotten so lucky to not be affected by the rescheduling crap, but just wait!

Well, I haven't been completely unscathed.

Senior scheduling supervisor violated the contract twice during our very first phone conversation off OE making my remaining buildup line. Turned out OK, didn't hose me but for one day, maybe she was having a bad day, whatever, just shut up and fly, right?

I've had them TRY things once or twice, but knowing the contract has been helpful in making sure I don't get hosed too badly. One or two late returns to base forcing me to commute on a day of doesn't help either, but that's life on reserve.

I did get hosed for my buildup line in December, mainly their fault through poor communication, partly mine for not making absolutely, 100% sure I was entering FLICA requests properly, but it worked out so no big bones to pick.

Since then, I've been able to make my schedule commutable, 16-18 days off with 80-85 hours of credit, no weekends. So my QOL isn't bad all in all.

I'm sure as a lineholder (by summer I believe) I'll have a harder time with SAP and such, and MAYBE some reassignment issues (hopefully not since that side letter is in place now), but only time will tell.

OBTW, my class had 22, one didn't make it through training, one just left for Delta (good luck!). The other 20 are still on property, almost 3 years later.

That's pretty good. Of my class of 19, 2 have left for SWA/DAL, 2 are pending NWA recall by the end of the year and will probably go, a half dozen are actively applying at either SWA or FDX.

If they go, that would be an attrition loss of over 50% in one year. The company can't afford those kinds of numbers long-term on a larger scale.

 

[mnboyev]

Read your NPA updates lately? Seems pretty optimistic... ... sounds like everyone is playing nice... meet as many times as possible in March.... TA is on the way folks...

I wear my lanyard and pin.... and a sticker or two...Never been told by anyone to take it off... please... this is typical management garbarge.. I probably dont help out as much as I should ... Be vocal for positive change... help out.. get involved.. talk to the BOD... they will listen ... you may not always like what they say... but they will listen... we have a very diverse group and its got to be like herding ducks now and then.

Breathe deep... it will be ok... A TA is on the way.... Probably a merger too... relax..

 

[FlyWolf]

Not that this matter but I talked to one of our union guys here at Midex about the same issue (f/o pay) after learning that the next contract will have minor improvement in f/o pay. The way he explained it to me is that most guys will spend more years flying from left seat than right seat, they would rather see improvement in the left seat pay, I guess they forgot how long we have been sitting in the right seat.

He also mentioned the bargaining that goes on and how if they work too hard on f/o pay they might loose in some other issue since the company will ask for something in return.

Hey guys, every union have their problems, and we have a lot of them over here, don't let management garbage divide you up and stay unified. Good luck.

 

[bladeusa]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition. i took nearly a 50% pay cut to come here.. and id like to stay here for a career.. but as upgrade slows to 4-5-? years, and fo pay is what it is -many of us will be looking elsewhere too. the union has leverage when you consider training costs. in my opinion they are not asking for enough.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I agree, I planned to stay to. But now that upgrade is getting further away I have started putting my stuff back out(Even if upgrade was still short, it is no accuse not to have decent FO rates).

 

[AppBrookie]

I think the union FO proposal is the minimum we should accept, should be asking for more at the table and let it ease down. We need a hefty backpay/signing bonus also, this has been dragged out long enough!!

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

 

[BSkin]

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

Concur, something is going on.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

F9????

 

[BSkin]

I'm sure as a lineholder (by summer I believe) I'll have a harder time with SAP and such, and MAYBE some reassignment issues (hopefully not since that side letter is in place now), but only time will tell./quote]

You've been posting for at least 6 mos. on AirTran threads, how long is reserve/build-up going now for FOs?

Oh, and CDOs

 

[Lear70]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition. i took nearly a 50% pay cut to come here.. and id like to stay here for a career.. but as upgrade slows to 4-5-? years, and fo pay is what it is -many of us will be looking elsewhere too. the union has leverage when you consider training costs. in my opinion they are not asking for enough.

10% is too low, that barely covers COLA for the last 2+ years there hasn't been a COLA raise.

Unless you put retro pay in there to reimburse everyone for the COLA they failed to get, then 10% would be a good starting point,,, IF you were willing to pretty much go COLA only.

I'm not interested in that. I'm looking for JetBlue BLENDED F/O rates or better, preferrably splitting the difference between them and SWA. That's about a 20-25% pay raise initially (which is $10 to $15 per hour), followed by 3% COLA raises plus 3-5% longevity per year.

You've been posting for at least 6 mos. on AirTran threads, how long is reserve/build-up going now for FOs?

Oh, and CDOs

I'm coming up on my 1-year anniversary next month. The problem was they hired 3 straight months of 737 pilots behind us, so our seniority on the 717 side didn't build for a while.

First build-up line in June after training done, Reserve July-December (6 months), then 3 months of buildup lines. Funny thing is, I keep slipping DOWN the buildup lines each month as more and more people come online. They're decreasing the number of hard lines for some reason, making more REL and RSV lines the last 2 months.

There's about 15-20 more 717 F/O's in the pipeline right now, hoping to be off reserve by my 1-year checkride.

I don't do CDO's. I'll bid reserve before I bid a CDO line. uke:

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

Yeah, the game's definitely afoot.

 

[BSkin]

I'm coming up on my 1-year anniversary next month. The problem was they hired 3 straight months of 737 pilots behind us, so our seniority on the 717 side didn't build for a while.

First build-up line in June after training done, Reserve July-December (6 months), then 3 months of buildup lines. Funny thing is, I keep slipping DOWN the buildup lines each month as more and more people come online. They're decreasing the number of hard lines for some reason, making more REL and RSV lines the last 2 months.

There's about 15-20 more 717 F/O's in the pipeline right now, hoping to be off reserve by my 1-year checkride.

I don't do CDO's. I'll bid reserve before I bid a CDO line. uke:


Yeah, the game's definitely afoot.

Damn, that sucks! I don't want to brag, since it's just dumb luck, but got on in the start of the big hiring binge in summer of '04. Was 320 or so at that time, now in the mid double digits. One thing went my way, let's hope it keeps going OUR way!

 

[CatfishVT9]

" . . . And for God's sake, TUCK IN THOSE PAJAMAS!". :laugh:


I, too, am tired of the former regional guys that use that as a basis point for comparison . . . . or the military guys who think everything is great beacuse "We get to sleep in real BEDS and no one's shootin' at us!"

Again, not a basis for comparison.


.

Ty,
Now that first line was some funny sheet......"A pledge pin....on your uniform!!"

But for the next line, I must kill you next time we meet. "Don't worry, I kill you last."

 

[CatfishVT9]

I'm curious about the attrition numbers. I keep hearing about folks leaving, but there haven't been many above me according to the latest seniority list. What doesn't show though is who left in the last year that had less that a year onboard.

Anyone?

And Bskin, who in our class went to Delta?

 

[400ADude]

What pay rates are you guys looking for over there and who are you comparing it to. SWA? FedEx?

What do you guys think is fair for a 5 year capt? 5 year FO?

???

 

[AlbieF15]

Bros,

I'm an outsider, but a huge Airtran fan. Couple of small points--

First--ALPA or not, you gotta show a unified face. Blanket party your reps if you must, but privately.

Second--anything you can do together to show unity sends a statement. Although it was sllllooooowwww, our negotiations at FDX were overall I think pretty successful. Lots of "my Negotiating committee speaks for me" kind of stickers and stuff helped send the message.

Finally--as an interview coach, I can tell you that both Airtran and Jetblue are hemmoraging folks to UPS, FDX, SWA, and even Delta and CAL. I've seen some of your new F/Os, but also some of your LCAs along the way. I really noticed an uptick about last summer--and if I saw it I'm sure your mangement saw a lot more than I did.

I wish all of you the very best of luck. Help each other out and good luck!

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm curious about the attrition numbers. I keep hearing about folks leaving, but there haven't been many above me according to the latest seniority list.

The NPA says at least 52 have left since October. I know of 2 CA, including a Check Airman that are in that group.

From what I hear, most of the TWAAmerican guys now plan to go back, even if they have upgraded . . . . . that tells you it is more than economics . . . it's also about QOL and being treated with respect.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Not to rain on your parade, and I'm glad that you're happy but...
This is the problem I see over and over again; Comparison of where you are now to the commuter job you left.

STOP thinking like a regional. You are a g-dam MAJOR airline pilot now. Start thinking like one and start showing the strength of resolve that the title expects of you.

hey there Donny boy, pipe down, I had a pretty good contract flying the 737 at ATA (that and $4 bucks will buy me a starbucks) so I'm not thinking regional. Just merely pointing out to the Wolf man that I know what it's like to go through regional hell about 10 years ago, and that isn't the case here at AAI. But thanks for thinking of me. Feel free to rant on.

 

[-9Capt]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition.

Those numbers are way low bro.

I expect to see closer to 15%-20% for the junior guys and 10% for the senior, COLA after that.

Not to mention:

*Increase of 1% a year to the B-fund for the next 3 years
*Limits on reassignments, more strict limits on downline drafts/JA's
*Long call reserve, no changing the reserve period.
*78 hr guarantee for reserves/75 hr for lineholders.
*5-6hrs/month sick accrual, vacation pay, personal days.
*Decrease the insurance premiums.
*Perf-bid, fix SAP.
*No $5000 cap on LTD
*Commuter policy
*More vacation weeks for the senior guys, 4hrs pay per day of vacation.
*Paid for missed trips during recurrent
*Better rigs, minimum daily pay
*Decent signing bonus/profit sharing or stock grants.
*3year duration
*Tighter scope language that binds AirTran Holdings, this is huge!

 

[Lowrider717]

Those numbers are way low bro.

I expect to see closer to 15%-20% for the junior guys and 10% for the senior, COLA after that.

Not to mention:

*Increase of 1% a year to the B-fund for the next 3 years
*Limits on reassignments, more strict limits on downline drafts/JA's
*Long call reserve, no changing the reserve period.
*78 hr guarantee for reserves/75 hr for lineholders.
*5-6hrs/month sick accrual, vacation pay, personal days.
*Decrease the insurance premiums.
*Perf-bid, fix SAP.
*No $5000 cap on LTD
*Commuter policy
*More vacation weeks for the senior guys, 4hrs pay per day of vacation.
*Paid for missed trips during recurrent
*Better rigs, minimum daily pay
*Decent signing bonus/profit sharing or stock grants.
*3year duration
*Tighter scope language that binds AirTran Holdings, this is huge!

add *Abolish $25 charge for the additional jumpseats, and unlim. for reciprocal agreements.