New trend for AirTran negotiations?

[SLEDNECK]

Sledneck, I've been under teamsters and they're much worse.

Fair enough, but that doesn't make this union a "breath of fresh air" either.

I agree with your examples and acknowledge NPA is not perfect, but it has improved greatly and continues to do so. The examples you cite are minor compared to the chit that used to go on!

LOL, that is scary!! How could it be worse? The company took our contract and shredded it. INstead of the union standing up, they responded by writing a LOA that basically just back-dated/approved the ass-wiping of the contract. We as a group could have stood up at that time and said no. The union was the place for this start. This wouldn't have been a strike, slow-down or anything like that, it would have been perfectly legal. This also would have been a great time to show our solidarity(ah hem, sorry, almost choked when I wrote that

I still believe NPA gives us better representation than ALPA. Convince me ALPA is better, what additional recourse would be available if the SNAFUs you listed had occurred under their watch. I'm truly curious, as I've never been a member.

I am not saying that ALPA or Teamsters is the solution, but rather said it couldn't be any worse. Since we are paying higher dues to outsource ALPA's resources, what's the point of "being on our own"? There are a lot better ALPA experts than me, but I will say a few things.

Division of power. One guy approved this mess and the other SNAFU's mentioned without so much as a word from anyone else. ALPA has a different structure of LEC's that have the power thus not allowing a one man show. We have a BOD, but that's for show. As far as by-laws and recalls and such, there are plenty but I have the attention span of a four year and would be side tracked too quickly to look them up

Another example is Comair. All ALPA members paid Comair pilots(wasn't much, but still) while they were on strike to make sure they got a fair contract. We all had a vested interest, and criticize it all you want, who's going to support us if we ever went on strike? The point is that other ALPA carriers have a vested interested in helping you get the best contract you can. HAVING SAID THAT, there is a LOT of room for improvement there lol.

Resources. What few resources we have or had, were models that came from ALPA like the ASAP program for example. Another one modeled after them is the Mutual Aid program. Here it's expensive with lots of rules. THere it was cheap, and if you needed it, it was there plain and simple. No time limits, and you didn't even have to partipate to get the bennies. Here you have to contribute for so long, and it's about 50 times more expensive.



I know there are enough ALPA haters here to ever prevent them from coming, but I have to laugh when people say that this in house union is as good as ALPA. People have mentioned that during their regional-ALPA days they were as equally as powerless as this union, but I didn't have that experience. Our union was strong, won more grievances than they lost, and the company couldn't re-write the contract without serious consequences. It wasn't perfect and nobody would have had anything to bitch about if it were, but definately three grades above this one.

I know my posts come accross as someone who loves ALPA, but in reality I'm just shocked by what I've seen here and only know ALPA as an example. Every turn they've made goes against what I feel the majority wants. THe union is getting beat and laughed at by the company and the ALPA name just simply carries more weight IMO. It seems like the leaders have been intimidated and act like they have to go along so the company will survive instead of using the lessons of the past to improve the future.

 

[Lear70]

Division of power. One guy approved this mess and the other SNAFU's mentioned without so much as a word from anyone else. ALPA has a different structure of LEC's that have the power thus not allowing a one man show. We have a BOD, but that's for show. As far as by-laws and recalls and such, there are plenty but I have the attention span of a four year and would be side tracked too quickly to look them up

This is why, at my last carrier, a resolution was passed that said, in a nutshell, that ANY pay or quality of life issue HAD to go to the pilots for Member Ratification.

With the emails we've received from the NPA recently, I'd say if we're going to make a stand about F/O rates, we'd better do it soon.

It looks like the company is finally motivated to make some positive movement on the contract, including giving RP his job back as I'm sure a gesture of good faith, and we may see a T.A. sooner rather than later.

Anyone wants to make an afternoon/evening of going by the office, voicing our concerns, then having some frosty ones, PM me.

 

[mnboyev]

Ya...ALPA really helped Comair..and the Delta brothers stood by em...please... I spent a little eagle time in MIA....ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !! ALPA National has nothing for us here at FL... Again..we are the union..its not just your tie tac fellas....think about it gentleman ..peace .. We can set the tide..we can make it tight...but it takes discussions like this ! A TA is close..and vote for what is fair and right....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

 

[j41driver]

This is why, at my last carrier, a resolution was passed that said, in a nutshell, that ANY pay or quality of life issue HAD to go to the pilots for Member Ratification.

EXACTLY!! I had the same thing at my previous carrier. That needs changing ASAP.

 

[newnan]

Sled, I agree on the Xmas debacle but it's obvious the majority enjoy the benefits of SAP II, but that LOA can be pulled at any time. You need to encourage everyone you fly with that has less than stellar results this month with SAP II to go to the NPA website and email the scheduling chairman. (I know that requires a little pointing and clicking but if you can do it here, you can do it there.) I think we should go back to fax and email just because it increases the work load on planning and let them work it out.
As far as age 60, I looked into it, and you could have too instead of jsut bashing the NPA, and the majority of the pilots polled from the polling center were in favor of it. Not by much but the majority were in favor, and almost 30% were against and almost 20% didn't care but a slim majority were in favor. What really pi$$es me off is that a certain instructor/checkairman that normally wouldn't have anything to do with the NPA besides run it down, is helping the committee chairman in his endeavors to raise the age. I guess we're an equal employment opportunity NPA.

 

[newnan]

Question for all ALPA supporters?
I watched the Comair strike unfold and wondered how they could get a fair shake when their union also represented the pilot group of the purse strings. The same applies at FL, what kind of shake would we get if we were ALPA, when they were representing co's that were trying to put us out of business. I haven't seen them get any industry leading contracts since United + 1 and that didn't work out too well.
Point is, the union name doesn't mean that much, it's the union that counts!

 

[j41driver]

As far as age 60, I looked into it, and you could have too instead of jsut bashing the NPA, and the majority of the pilots polled from the polling center were in favor of it. Not by much but the majority were in favor

When did that poll take place? I know for a fact that it wasn't within the last 18 months...actually I heard that it was 3-4 years ago. The size of this group has just about doubled since then. A poll from that long ago may not be representative of today's majority.

 

[BSkin]

Well, to put it bluntly, THIS IS A HE!! OF A LOT BETTER THAN WHERE I WAS LAST!

And yes TY, also was military. However, I don't like the way things have evolved in this last 1-2 years.

I believe there are 80-90% of our pilot group (me included) that would like to call AirTran the final stop. I work to make this company profitable so that I can have a decent life. But, I think my juice has run out. Not to say I won't continue to do the same, but getting f-ed over by skeds twice in the last 2 months, not getting a comp day for flying on a day off, not being able to do squat in SAP2 -- that $hit drags you down -- and yes, I did greive it. I put all our hopes that we will solve the problem with a DECENT contract (HEAR THAT NPA). One that has no scheduling loopholes, and a decent raise across the board. Flying is an awesome job, but when you get treated like McD's fry cooks, it's not.

Lear, don't know how you've gotten so lucky to not be affected by the rescheduling crap, but just wait!

OBTW, my class had 22, one didn't make it through training, one just left for Delta (good luck!). The other 20 are still on property, almost 3 years later.

 

[Ty Webb]

ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !! ....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

I have been a volunteer and committee member for the past two years . . . . but the union and I diverged on nearly every single issue since the Xmas debacle . . . .

I'm for a STRONG union . . . . . and I am a very RESULT-oriented person.

If AP is successful in the next few months . . . I'll be the first one to shake his hand, and admit that his way prevailed . . . . but until that happens, I think that stronger medicine is required. Prove me wrong, I'll be happy to acknowledge the attainment of positive RESULTS.


.

 

[-9Capt]

Just a bit of history..The last contract's first TA was voted down...due to FO rates..

EV,
That was one of many, many reasons.
RD

 

[Lear70]

ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !!

I'm P2P. Not that it has helped much, since the NPA can't even get the Chief Pilot's office to let us display our lanyards and pins that identify us as such, therefore no one knows to approach us and ask questions.

I have been somewhat satisfied with the level of communication we're getting, but we're also getting some smoke and mirrors, too. People need to hear that important items are being addressed and pilots NEED to hear the steps that will be taken. We are WAY too result-oriented just to hear "yeah, we know about it, and we're working on it".

That said, every email to the P2P office HAS been received and replied within 24-48 hours every time with good information. I like that, and I'm happy to continue to help in what seems like a solid committee trying to help educate the pilot group.

ALPA National has nothing for us here at FL... Again..we are the union..its not just your tie tac fellas....think about it gentleman ..peace ..

I may be in the mirnoity; I may speaking out of school, so to speak, but I just don't feel it's a "tie tac" issue. The issue is apathy. PURE APATHY.

A large portion of the pilot group has become SO apathetic that you can't get them to do anything unless it ABSOLUTELY has to be done. They know that the contract likely won't get worse, and would rather take their increases, say thank you, and walk away. THOSE are your your biggest goal to get on board, and it is up to YOU, the UNION LEADERSHIP to take the high road, bring them all together, let them vent their anger, then show them how great your plans are and how you need them involved.

Same thing with the middle line pilots who think their voice is being ignored. Grab a bunch of P2P guys that fall in this category, get them educated on what the union plans for their group, then send them out to educate everyone else. Those who are still unhappy, bring 'em back in and let the NPA explain why they are working the deal they're doing for them. If they still don't like it, get the Wilson Polling data out and prove which way represents "MOST" of the pilot group. Can't please 'em all but SOME of them might start to understand.

Last, you keep the new guys 0-2 years informed just like everyone else. Do it when they come to the free food deal 'cause you know you can find them there! Come prepared to actually ANSWER the hard questions, not just to stir debate. Let them know how and where their part of the puzzle fits in.

THESE are the kinds of groundwork actions that need to be taken NOW so that 6-8 months from now, we have the solidarity throughout 90% of the pilot ranks to either vote YES or NO by large, sweeping numbers with large participation.

It takes a LOT of work, I'm willing to help as I've stated before, but we have to have the FULL support of the MEC and P2P in order to accomplish a program such as this with FIRM ANSWERS WHY things were done as they were over Christmas, New Years, SAP 2, and how it benefits us to do so. If we don't have the answers, people won't listen to us, either.

We can set the tide..we can make it tight...but it takes discussions like this ! A TA is close..and vote for what is fair and right....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

Well, it's definitely gonna be one or the other. I ain't going down without a fight, at least a small one, to try to change this small part of the equation I play into. I hope I get some guys who honestly want to give it a try like I said above, versus just going down and cornering the officials in front of the new-hires (that's the only time you get them all together like that) and get some straightforward answers, then take it back to the line ourselves.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, don't know how you've gotten so lucky to not be affected by the rescheduling crap, but just wait!

Well, I haven't been completely unscathed.

Senior scheduling supervisor violated the contract twice during our very first phone conversation off OE making my remaining buildup line. Turned out OK, didn't hose me but for one day, maybe she was having a bad day, whatever, just shut up and fly, right?

I've had them TRY things once or twice, but knowing the contract has been helpful in making sure I don't get hosed too badly. One or two late returns to base forcing me to commute on a day of doesn't help either, but that's life on reserve.

I did get hosed for my buildup line in December, mainly their fault through poor communication, partly mine for not making absolutely, 100% sure I was entering FLICA requests properly, but it worked out so no big bones to pick.

Since then, I've been able to make my schedule commutable, 16-18 days off with 80-85 hours of credit, no weekends. So my QOL isn't bad all in all.

I'm sure as a lineholder (by summer I believe) I'll have a harder time with SAP and such, and MAYBE some reassignment issues (hopefully not since that side letter is in place now), but only time will tell.

OBTW, my class had 22, one didn't make it through training, one just left for Delta (good luck!). The other 20 are still on property, almost 3 years later.

That's pretty good. Of my class of 19, 2 have left for SWA/DAL, 2 are pending NWA recall by the end of the year and will probably go, a half dozen are actively applying at either SWA or FDX.

If they go, that would be an attrition loss of over 50% in one year. The company can't afford those kinds of numbers long-term on a larger scale.

 

[mnboyev]

Read your NPA updates lately? Seems pretty optimistic... ... sounds like everyone is playing nice... meet as many times as possible in March.... TA is on the way folks...

I wear my lanyard and pin.... and a sticker or two...Never been told by anyone to take it off... please... this is typical management garbarge.. I probably dont help out as much as I should ... Be vocal for positive change... help out.. get involved.. talk to the BOD... they will listen ... you may not always like what they say... but they will listen... we have a very diverse group and its got to be like herding ducks now and then.

Breathe deep... it will be ok... A TA is on the way.... Probably a merger too... relax..

 

[FlyWolf]

Not that this matter but I talked to one of our union guys here at Midex about the same issue (f/o pay) after learning that the next contract will have minor improvement in f/o pay. The way he explained it to me is that most guys will spend more years flying from left seat than right seat, they would rather see improvement in the left seat pay, I guess they forgot how long we have been sitting in the right seat.

He also mentioned the bargaining that goes on and how if they work too hard on f/o pay they might loose in some other issue since the company will ask for something in return.

Hey guys, every union have their problems, and we have a lot of them over here, don't let management garbage divide you up and stay unified. Good luck.

 

[bladeusa]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition. i took nearly a 50% pay cut to come here.. and id like to stay here for a career.. but as upgrade slows to 4-5-? years, and fo pay is what it is -many of us will be looking elsewhere too. the union has leverage when you consider training costs. in my opinion they are not asking for enough.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I agree, I planned to stay to. But now that upgrade is getting further away I have started putting my stuff back out(Even if upgrade was still short, it is no accuse not to have decent FO rates).

 

[AppBrookie]

I think the union FO proposal is the minimum we should accept, should be asking for more at the table and let it ease down. We need a hefty backpay/signing bonus also, this has been dragged out long enough!!

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

 

[BSkin]

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

Concur, something is going on.

 

[Rouge Warrior]

F9????

 

[BSkin]

I'm sure as a lineholder (by summer I believe) I'll have a harder time with SAP and such, and MAYBE some reassignment issues (hopefully not since that side letter is in place now), but only time will tell./quote]

You've been posting for at least 6 mos. on AirTran threads, how long is reserve/build-up going now for FOs?

Oh, and CDOs

 

[Lear70]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition. i took nearly a 50% pay cut to come here.. and id like to stay here for a career.. but as upgrade slows to 4-5-? years, and fo pay is what it is -many of us will be looking elsewhere too. the union has leverage when you consider training costs. in my opinion they are not asking for enough.

10% is too low, that barely covers COLA for the last 2+ years there hasn't been a COLA raise.

Unless you put retro pay in there to reimburse everyone for the COLA they failed to get, then 10% would be a good starting point,,, IF you were willing to pretty much go COLA only.

I'm not interested in that. I'm looking for JetBlue BLENDED F/O rates or better, preferrably splitting the difference between them and SWA. That's about a 20-25% pay raise initially (which is $10 to $15 per hour), followed by 3% COLA raises plus 3-5% longevity per year.

You've been posting for at least 6 mos. on AirTran threads, how long is reserve/build-up going now for FOs?

Oh, and CDOs

I'm coming up on my 1-year anniversary next month. The problem was they hired 3 straight months of 737 pilots behind us, so our seniority on the 717 side didn't build for a while.

First build-up line in June after training done, Reserve July-December (6 months), then 3 months of buildup lines. Funny thing is, I keep slipping DOWN the buildup lines each month as more and more people come online. They're decreasing the number of hard lines for some reason, making more REL and RSV lines the last 2 months.

There's about 15-20 more 717 F/O's in the pipeline right now, hoping to be off reserve by my 1-year checkride.

I don't do CDO's. I'll bid reserve before I bid a CDO line. uke:

Management has gotten really gung-ho on this contract all of the sudden, I think something is up other than Midwest that they need to get this thing wrapped up quick.

Yeah, the game's definitely afoot.

 

[BSkin]

I'm coming up on my 1-year anniversary next month. The problem was they hired 3 straight months of 737 pilots behind us, so our seniority on the 717 side didn't build for a while.

First build-up line in June after training done, Reserve July-December (6 months), then 3 months of buildup lines. Funny thing is, I keep slipping DOWN the buildup lines each month as more and more people come online. They're decreasing the number of hard lines for some reason, making more REL and RSV lines the last 2 months.

There's about 15-20 more 717 F/O's in the pipeline right now, hoping to be off reserve by my 1-year checkride.

I don't do CDO's. I'll bid reserve before I bid a CDO line. uke:


Yeah, the game's definitely afoot.

Damn, that sucks! I don't want to brag, since it's just dumb luck, but got on in the start of the big hiring binge in summer of '04. Was 320 or so at that time, now in the mid double digits. One thing went my way, let's hope it keeps going OUR way!

 

[CatfishVT9]

" . . . And for God's sake, TUCK IN THOSE PAJAMAS!". :laugh:


I, too, am tired of the former regional guys that use that as a basis point for comparison . . . . or the military guys who think everything is great beacuse "We get to sleep in real BEDS and no one's shootin' at us!"

Again, not a basis for comparison.


.

Ty,
Now that first line was some funny sheet......"A pledge pin....on your uniform!!"

But for the next line, I must kill you next time we meet. "Don't worry, I kill you last."

 

[CatfishVT9]

I'm curious about the attrition numbers. I keep hearing about folks leaving, but there haven't been many above me according to the latest seniority list. What doesn't show though is who left in the last year that had less that a year onboard.

Anyone?

And Bskin, who in our class went to Delta?

 

[400ADude]

What pay rates are you guys looking for over there and who are you comparing it to. SWA? FedEx?

What do you guys think is fair for a 5 year capt? 5 year FO?

???

 

[AlbieF15]

Bros,

I'm an outsider, but a huge Airtran fan. Couple of small points--

First--ALPA or not, you gotta show a unified face. Blanket party your reps if you must, but privately.

Second--anything you can do together to show unity sends a statement. Although it was sllllooooowwww, our negotiations at FDX were overall I think pretty successful. Lots of "my Negotiating committee speaks for me" kind of stickers and stuff helped send the message.

Finally--as an interview coach, I can tell you that both Airtran and Jetblue are hemmoraging folks to UPS, FDX, SWA, and even Delta and CAL. I've seen some of your new F/Os, but also some of your LCAs along the way. I really noticed an uptick about last summer--and if I saw it I'm sure your mangement saw a lot more than I did.

I wish all of you the very best of luck. Help each other out and good luck!

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm curious about the attrition numbers. I keep hearing about folks leaving, but there haven't been many above me according to the latest seniority list.

The NPA says at least 52 have left since October. I know of 2 CA, including a Check Airman that are in that group.

From what I hear, most of the TWAAmerican guys now plan to go back, even if they have upgraded . . . . . that tells you it is more than economics . . . it's also about QOL and being treated with respect.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Not to rain on your parade, and I'm glad that you're happy but...
This is the problem I see over and over again; Comparison of where you are now to the commuter job you left.

STOP thinking like a regional. You are a g-dam MAJOR airline pilot now. Start thinking like one and start showing the strength of resolve that the title expects of you.

hey there Donny boy, pipe down, I had a pretty good contract flying the 737 at ATA (that and $4 bucks will buy me a starbucks) so I'm not thinking regional. Just merely pointing out to the Wolf man that I know what it's like to go through regional hell about 10 years ago, and that isn't the case here at AAI. But thanks for thinking of me. Feel free to rant on.

 

[-9Capt]

FO pay needs to come up 10% initially and then annual cola raises from there. not voting for anything less. i actually think it should be more than that - especially if you are concerned about attrition.

Those numbers are way low bro.

I expect to see closer to 15%-20% for the junior guys and 10% for the senior, COLA after that.

Not to mention:

*Increase of 1% a year to the B-fund for the next 3 years
*Limits on reassignments, more strict limits on downline drafts/JA's
*Long call reserve, no changing the reserve period.
*78 hr guarantee for reserves/75 hr for lineholders.
*5-6hrs/month sick accrual, vacation pay, personal days.
*Decrease the insurance premiums.
*Perf-bid, fix SAP.
*No $5000 cap on LTD
*Commuter policy
*More vacation weeks for the senior guys, 4hrs pay per day of vacation.
*Paid for missed trips during recurrent
*Better rigs, minimum daily pay
*Decent signing bonus/profit sharing or stock grants.
*3year duration
*Tighter scope language that binds AirTran Holdings, this is huge!

 

[Lowrider717]

Those numbers are way low bro.

I expect to see closer to 15%-20% for the junior guys and 10% for the senior, COLA after that.

Not to mention:

*Increase of 1% a year to the B-fund for the next 3 years
*Limits on reassignments, more strict limits on downline drafts/JA's
*Long call reserve, no changing the reserve period.
*78 hr guarantee for reserves/75 hr for lineholders.
*5-6hrs/month sick accrual, vacation pay, personal days.
*Decrease the insurance premiums.
*Perf-bid, fix SAP.
*No $5000 cap on LTD
*Commuter policy
*More vacation weeks for the senior guys, 4hrs pay per day of vacation.
*Paid for missed trips during recurrent
*Better rigs, minimum daily pay
*Decent signing bonus/profit sharing or stock grants.
*3year duration
*Tighter scope language that binds AirTran Holdings, this is huge!

add *Abolish $25 charge for the additional jumpseats, and unlim. for reciprocal agreements.