New trend for AirTran negotiations?

[Steeler Fan]

HEY!

I didn't go dissing your Steelers, don't you be bashing my 'Boys.

Seriously, there's only one person on that team that gives everyone else a bad name. I thought they did quite well this season, although they deserved to lose after that playoff performance. What a joke!

Ever since Tom Landry left, the organization has lost some of its luster. I felt bad for Tony Romo.

But then again my Steelers didn't exactly represent all that well this year. Thanks to all the Ravens' fans who reminded me of that this year.

 

[FIREMAN]

I'm with you on this one. Perhaps we should all start emailing AP with our inputs.

AP does not give a rats a$$ what your input is.

 

[SLEDNECK]

AP does not give a rats a$$ what your input is.

100% correct!

 

[DCitrus9]

Why do you only say the FO pay rates need to got up? I think ALL pay rates need to go up. FO is currently 60% of CA pay (average) up through 8th year, which seems to be relatively standard (frontier and jetblue.) Some are higher %, but some are lower.
This in house union is also a much better option than ALPA or Teamsters.

 

[gt1900]

WE DO KNOT WANT TEAMSTERS on property.. With the possible exception of Horizon (which was still a cluster) they do not have a good reputation in the airline industry... BTW... RP will be back on line March 1st... Everyone kissed, made up, and apoligized... Good to hear, this goes a little way (though small) in restoring some credability between the union and company...

 

[DonVerita]

I've been here a year and I can definitely say that AAI is 10X better than what I experienced at a certain commuter.

Not to rain on your parade, and I'm glad that you're happy but...
This is the problem I see over and over again; Comparison of where you are now to the commuter job you left.

STOP thinking like a regional. You are a g-dam MAJOR airline pilot now. Start thinking like one and start showing the strength of resolve that the title expects of you.

 

[SLEDNECK]

This in house union is also a much better option that ALPA or Teamsters. If you are not happy with it, get involved and share your expertise.[/quote]

This union couldn't be much worse. It gives the average line pilot very little recourse when the leaders are not speaking for them. Complain about ALPA all you want, but the dues are less there and you get a lot more bennies to go with them. Not to mention that we are currently paying more in dues during contract negotiations so that we can pay for third party(ALPA) help. So basically we get more for less and use the extra to pay for what we could already have. I would rather have ALPA and be bitching about them, at least I would have someone to bitch to and someone would be held accountable. Here, it's take or leave it which sucks when the dues are the among the highest and the return is among the lowest in membership bennies not to mention the lop-sided control that the company enjoys. I don't see how ALPA or Teamsters could be any worse. This union wrote an LOA that made it so no one could grieve the holiday mess, then they followed it up with another LOA that made SAP II worthless so that we could keep our precious flica. They also decided to use these dues to fund a committe to support age 65 without asking it's members what they thought and is only supported by a minority of pilots at the top. Sorry, but if you think this "in house" union is a better option than I would hate to see where you come from because it doesn't get much worse than this. The moral is low because of all the crap the company has gotten away with. Every company tries to get away with this stuff, it's just that our union has not only allowed it, but piece by piece, written away our contract so that we can't grieve it.

 

[Ty Webb]

STOP thinking like a regional. You are a g-dam MAJOR airline pilot now. Start thinking like one and start showing the strength of resolve that the title expects of you.

" . . . And for God's sake, TUCK IN THOSE PAJAMAS!". :laugh:


I, too, am tired of the former regional guys that use that as a basis point for comparison . . . . or the military guys who think everything is great beacuse "We get to sleep in real BEDS and no one's shootin' at us!"

Again, not a basis for comparison.


.

 

[DCitrus9]

Sledneck, I've been under teamsters and they're much worse.
I agree with your examples and acknowledge NPA is not perfect, but it has improved greatly and continues to do so. The examples you cite are minor compared to the chit that used to go on!
I still believe NPA gives us better representation than ALPA. Convince me ALPA is better, what additional recourse would be available if the SNAFUs you listed had occurred under their watch. I'm truly curious, as I've never been a member.

 

[Lear70]

I still believe NPA gives us better representation than ALPA. Convince me ALPA is better, what additional recourse would be available if the SNAFUs you listed had occurred under their watch. I'm truly curious, as I've never been a member.

There isn't a big difference between unions; there's just not. I've seen a lot of stuff go by all three unions at three different carriers. Everyone is restricted by the RLA.

That said, there's a lot of things that were given up under the current administration than should not have been. At the very least, they should have been cashed in as a BIG bargaining chip for something else.

Unfortunately, it was an opportunity missed; that's what aggravates me so much, and it all boils down to the people at the helm of the NPA as to how the recent issues have been managed.

THAT'S why I say it's the senior reps of ANY union that make the difference.

I also don't "like" the idea of switching representation right now either, but something NEEDS to give on the F/O rates. I agree that CA rates need to go up also, but 4% on 5 and 6 year F/O rates?? That's not even COLA!!

p.s. Yes, I sent my email directly to AP by copying his email address off the pilot side of the NPA website. I also copied the girl that runs the office, and she acknowledged that I had the right address when I sent the 2nd one and CC'd her. :uzi:

 

[SLEDNECK]

Sledneck, I've been under teamsters and they're much worse.

Fair enough, but that doesn't make this union a "breath of fresh air" either.

I agree with your examples and acknowledge NPA is not perfect, but it has improved greatly and continues to do so. The examples you cite are minor compared to the chit that used to go on!

LOL, that is scary!! How could it be worse? The company took our contract and shredded it. INstead of the union standing up, they responded by writing a LOA that basically just back-dated/approved the ass-wiping of the contract. We as a group could have stood up at that time and said no. The union was the place for this start. This wouldn't have been a strike, slow-down or anything like that, it would have been perfectly legal. This also would have been a great time to show our solidarity(ah hem, sorry, almost choked when I wrote that

I still believe NPA gives us better representation than ALPA. Convince me ALPA is better, what additional recourse would be available if the SNAFUs you listed had occurred under their watch. I'm truly curious, as I've never been a member.

I am not saying that ALPA or Teamsters is the solution, but rather said it couldn't be any worse. Since we are paying higher dues to outsource ALPA's resources, what's the point of "being on our own"? There are a lot better ALPA experts than me, but I will say a few things.

Division of power. One guy approved this mess and the other SNAFU's mentioned without so much as a word from anyone else. ALPA has a different structure of LEC's that have the power thus not allowing a one man show. We have a BOD, but that's for show. As far as by-laws and recalls and such, there are plenty but I have the attention span of a four year and would be side tracked too quickly to look them up

Another example is Comair. All ALPA members paid Comair pilots(wasn't much, but still) while they were on strike to make sure they got a fair contract. We all had a vested interest, and criticize it all you want, who's going to support us if we ever went on strike? The point is that other ALPA carriers have a vested interested in helping you get the best contract you can. HAVING SAID THAT, there is a LOT of room for improvement there lol.

Resources. What few resources we have or had, were models that came from ALPA like the ASAP program for example. Another one modeled after them is the Mutual Aid program. Here it's expensive with lots of rules. THere it was cheap, and if you needed it, it was there plain and simple. No time limits, and you didn't even have to partipate to get the bennies. Here you have to contribute for so long, and it's about 50 times more expensive.



I know there are enough ALPA haters here to ever prevent them from coming, but I have to laugh when people say that this in house union is as good as ALPA. People have mentioned that during their regional-ALPA days they were as equally as powerless as this union, but I didn't have that experience. Our union was strong, won more grievances than they lost, and the company couldn't re-write the contract without serious consequences. It wasn't perfect and nobody would have had anything to bitch about if it were, but definately three grades above this one.

I know my posts come accross as someone who loves ALPA, but in reality I'm just shocked by what I've seen here and only know ALPA as an example. Every turn they've made goes against what I feel the majority wants. THe union is getting beat and laughed at by the company and the ALPA name just simply carries more weight IMO. It seems like the leaders have been intimidated and act like they have to go along so the company will survive instead of using the lessons of the past to improve the future.

 

[Lear70]

Division of power. One guy approved this mess and the other SNAFU's mentioned without so much as a word from anyone else. ALPA has a different structure of LEC's that have the power thus not allowing a one man show. We have a BOD, but that's for show. As far as by-laws and recalls and such, there are plenty but I have the attention span of a four year and would be side tracked too quickly to look them up

This is why, at my last carrier, a resolution was passed that said, in a nutshell, that ANY pay or quality of life issue HAD to go to the pilots for Member Ratification.

With the emails we've received from the NPA recently, I'd say if we're going to make a stand about F/O rates, we'd better do it soon.

It looks like the company is finally motivated to make some positive movement on the contract, including giving RP his job back as I'm sure a gesture of good faith, and we may see a T.A. sooner rather than later.

Anyone wants to make an afternoon/evening of going by the office, voicing our concerns, then having some frosty ones, PM me.

 

[mnboyev]

Ya...ALPA really helped Comair..and the Delta brothers stood by em...please... I spent a little eagle time in MIA....ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !! ALPA National has nothing for us here at FL... Again..we are the union..its not just your tie tac fellas....think about it gentleman ..peace .. We can set the tide..we can make it tight...but it takes discussions like this ! A TA is close..and vote for what is fair and right....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

 

[j41driver]

This is why, at my last carrier, a resolution was passed that said, in a nutshell, that ANY pay or quality of life issue HAD to go to the pilots for Member Ratification.

EXACTLY!! I had the same thing at my previous carrier. That needs changing ASAP.

 

[newnan]

Sled, I agree on the Xmas debacle but it's obvious the majority enjoy the benefits of SAP II, but that LOA can be pulled at any time. You need to encourage everyone you fly with that has less than stellar results this month with SAP II to go to the NPA website and email the scheduling chairman. (I know that requires a little pointing and clicking but if you can do it here, you can do it there.) I think we should go back to fax and email just because it increases the work load on planning and let them work it out.
As far as age 60, I looked into it, and you could have too instead of jsut bashing the NPA, and the majority of the pilots polled from the polling center were in favor of it. Not by much but the majority were in favor, and almost 30% were against and almost 20% didn't care but a slim majority were in favor. What really pi$$es me off is that a certain instructor/checkairman that normally wouldn't have anything to do with the NPA besides run it down, is helping the committee chairman in his endeavors to raise the age. I guess we're an equal employment opportunity NPA.

 

[newnan]

Question for all ALPA supporters?
I watched the Comair strike unfold and wondered how they could get a fair shake when their union also represented the pilot group of the purse strings. The same applies at FL, what kind of shake would we get if we were ALPA, when they were representing co's that were trying to put us out of business. I haven't seen them get any industry leading contracts since United + 1 and that didn't work out too well.
Point is, the union name doesn't mean that much, it's the union that counts!

 

[j41driver]

As far as age 60, I looked into it, and you could have too instead of jsut bashing the NPA, and the majority of the pilots polled from the polling center were in favor of it. Not by much but the majority were in favor

When did that poll take place? I know for a fact that it wasn't within the last 18 months...actually I heard that it was 3-4 years ago. The size of this group has just about doubled since then. A poll from that long ago may not be representative of today's majority.

 

[BSkin]

Well, to put it bluntly, THIS IS A HE!! OF A LOT BETTER THAN WHERE I WAS LAST!

And yes TY, also was military. However, I don't like the way things have evolved in this last 1-2 years.

I believe there are 80-90% of our pilot group (me included) that would like to call AirTran the final stop. I work to make this company profitable so that I can have a decent life. But, I think my juice has run out. Not to say I won't continue to do the same, but getting f-ed over by skeds twice in the last 2 months, not getting a comp day for flying on a day off, not being able to do squat in SAP2 -- that $hit drags you down -- and yes, I did greive it. I put all our hopes that we will solve the problem with a DECENT contract (HEAR THAT NPA). One that has no scheduling loopholes, and a decent raise across the board. Flying is an awesome job, but when you get treated like McD's fry cooks, it's not.

Lear, don't know how you've gotten so lucky to not be affected by the rescheduling crap, but just wait!

OBTW, my class had 22, one didn't make it through training, one just left for Delta (good luck!). The other 20 are still on property, almost 3 years later.

 

[Ty Webb]

ALPA is not the answer..instead of throwing stones at the NPA..stop by and help out...plenty of room for volunteers !! ....Did any of you ever get in touch Or is it ..lets all crash the union hall....we'll show em??

I have been a volunteer and committee member for the past two years . . . . but the union and I diverged on nearly every single issue since the Xmas debacle . . . .

I'm for a STRONG union . . . . . and I am a very RESULT-oriented person.

If AP is successful in the next few months . . . I'll be the first one to shake his hand, and admit that his way prevailed . . . . but until that happens, I think that stronger medicine is required. Prove me wrong, I'll be happy to acknowledge the attainment of positive RESULTS.


.

 

[-9Capt]

Just a bit of history..The last contract's first TA was voted down...due to FO rates..

EV,
That was one of many, many reasons.
RD