New trend for AirTran negotiations?

[scar1900]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Maybe he was talking about on arrival....

 

[gearup5]

I just started this summer and we have already lost two guys from a class of 20 to Continental.
FO pay scales need to be revised up a lot more than what the company and our union is proposing.
Since when did we support the age 60 increase?(el presidente of union stated, most recent list of goals)WTF

 

[Citrusflyer]

I hope for all our sakes that pilots are not still doing this. Why on Earth would you want to pi$$ off 117-137 passengers by having them sit on a hot airplane just to save a few gallons of APU fuel? We are in the customer service field guys. That means keeping the customer HAPPY from the moment they make their reservation to the moment they pick up their baggage off the conveyor. Turn the APU on BEFORE the first passenger steps foot on the aircraft. At destination -during taxi in-, turn the APU on so conditioned air is ready to be introduced into the cabin the moment engines are shut down. Leave the APU on until the last passenger deplanes -or- external air conditioning is hooked up.

Please Please Please do not subject our passengers to hot, and/or low air movement cabin conditions. We need for them to be repeat customers...not go to the competition.

We have gate air at all ATL and almost all outsatation jetways. 95% of the time there is no real need for the APU to be on, and if there is one then mine is on.

 

[gt1900]

Whoknows.. You know nothing about me, so I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself. I have a question for you though. How many sections got ta'd when MB was our negotiator?? Exactly 0.. And if you know MB, you should know why. But then again I guess your totally OK with the fact that he has being paid since sept and just went through requall training several weeks ago. Doesn't that piss you off a little??? BTW.. They just ta'd two more sections today.. Yes, a lot of fluff stuf, but at least its going somewhere.. 10 sections ta'd since Sept, and none while MB was the negotiator the previous two years... Like I said, its a start.... And I'm not a fugging coolaid drinker..

 

[Ty Webb]

. I have a question for you though. How many sections got ta'd when MB was our negotiator?? Exactly 0.. And if you know MB, you should know why.

I know MB. He was not the obstacle. The Company uses the most basic tactics there are . . . and that is to personalize the negotiations and to demonize the negotiators themselves, and you fell for it.

.... And I'm not a fugging coolaid drinker..

No, the actual term for the behavior you are exhibiting is that of a "Useful Idiot". . . . and that's a technical term.

The problem isn't MB, or SH, or AP, or even SK. The problem is this 1980's management tactics . . . they didn't work at Eastern, and they aren't working here. Time for Joe to go.


.

 

[IAHERJ]

I walked in a 9 year AirTran captain's resume to our chief pilot here at Continental a few weeks ago. He wants to remain ananamous for several reasons. His reasons were many but overall he wants to have more variety in his flying. He is saving up for the huge paycut as we speak.

IAHERJ

 

[mnboyev]

Group hug man !!!

Just a couple of things..Nobody from my class has left...although a couple of em are looking..mainly the 30ish crowd.. All are left seat...

The Union is US guys...period.!!! Call AP if you want to give em a piece of your mind..... And MB was just a negotiator as is dough and SH..They don't decide what is accepted or TA'd...The BOD decides.

age 60...well.. I think CAPA supports it so we kinda fall under that umbrella in Washington last I checked... I agree that ol Wilson polling might have been in order..but at what cost to us... We'll get a contract before the MEH thing hits hard...I bet by spring or early summer... be safe!

 

[~~~^~~~]

How long is upgrade looking for new hires and just what are the union's FO rates for the first few years?

With the other Majors beginning to crank up, it would seem AirTran would have to be competitive.

 

[400ADude]

I walked in a 9 year AirTran captain's resume to our chief pilot here at Continental a few weeks ago. He wants to remain ananamous for several reasons. His reasons were many but overall he wants to have more variety in his flying. He is saving up for the huge paycut as we speak.

IAHERJ

You've got to be kidding us?? He's been there 9 years and his going to leave and start over at a company that pays 30/hr?? Throw in the 65 issue and that will thwart his upgrade over at CAL. He must be really burned out of the scabs at Valuejet.

 

[michael707767]

Training costs money, Chief . . . about $22K per pilot . . . so a first year FO is as expensive as a third year pilot. . . . and less productive, since the first three and a half months he's not even flying the line..

whoa, I just asked a question.

I understand training costs money. But I have no doubt that managment has figured the costs of training new guys vs the costs of raising your wages. Where the breakeven point between the two is unknown, but you can be sure management has looked at that.

Training costs don't seem to be affecting the pay at the regionals...despite their high turnover.

 

[Kharma Police]

You've got to be kidding us?? He's been there 9 years and his going to leave and start over at a company that pays 30/hr?? Throw in the 65 issue and that will thwart his upgrade over at CAL. He must be really burned out of the scabs at Valuejet.

It was ValuJet, and FYI there are more scabs at CAL then at da 'Tranny......

 

[Lear70]

Maybe he was talking about on arrival....

No, he wasn't. You'd have to work here to understand... topic for a different thread if you really want to know.

I think, historically, you were deprived of air in the birth canal.

ROFLMFAO!!!

I just got in from the 4-day from hell, made me snort Scotch out my nose, that hurt. Still funny, though.

IMHO a major reason guys are leaving is because the incompetence of certain management personnel has become rather apparent. IF you could work for the next 20 years for profitable, yet pilot-friendly management, then why work instead for a company that seems to think that the only way to make money is by squeezing the pilot group . . . .

Quite possibly this is true for the top 1/3 of the seniority group.

A lot of the guys I've talked to who are taking recall or leaving for SWA/FedEx, etc are simply saying they have no faith that AirTran will EVER be the equivalent of any of those jobs, and giving up 3-5 years of seniority here will still net them HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS or MORE in $$$ with an equivalent or better QOL.

It's just that simple.

People are voting with their feet, and I'll bet that if the company rolled over completely and accepted the Union's proposed pay rates right now, they probably couldn't get it to pass a vote by the pilot group.

I'll take that bet. I bet you a C-note that the first T.A. that comes around with a small increase in B-fund, a substantial cut in health care costs, and 10-15% raises (just BARELY better than COLA) will pass.

I wouldn't vote for it, I know most of you on this board wouldn't vote for it, and I'm irritated as hell to have to say that, but I don't think the pilots of this company have the solidarity to hold out for any real increases, ESPECIALLY when our OWN UNION isn't holding out, even though we're in quite possibly the BEST position the pilots of AirTran will EVER be in to do so...

IMO from watching how things work here the last year, the vocal minority on this board is just that, a vocal MINORITY of the pilot group. Just too many people at the top of the food chain with too much to lose and not enough developed alternatives at other carriers to risk it all.

 

[400ADude]

It was ValuJet, and FYI there are more scabs at CAL then at da 'Tranny......

Maybe he wants to be around the professional scabs?

 

[Eagle757shark]

I hope for all our sakes that pilots are not still doing this. Why on Earth would you want to pi$$ off 117-137 passengers by having them sit on a hot airplane just to save a few gallons of APU fuel? We are in the customer service field guys. That means keeping the customer HAPPY from the moment they make their reservation to the moment they pick up their baggage off the conveyor. Turn the APU on BEFORE the first passenger steps foot on the aircraft. At destination -during taxi in-, turn the APU on so conditioned air is ready to be introduced into the cabin the moment engines are shut down. Leave the APU on until the last passenger deplanes -or- external air conditioning is hooked up.

Please Please Please do not subject our passengers to hot, and/or low air movement cabin conditions. We need for them to be repeat customers...not go to the competition.

I'm speaking to what this pilot group has done the last couple of years to save AirTran millions of dollars. I for one don't appreciate the way this management team has disrespected this pilot group with their childish games. There is no accountability in the middle management ranks and it has lead to poor morale. I wasn't impressed by the VP's letter at all. It was a slap in the face and shows they again aren't willing to face up to the reality of what really is wrong with our operation internally. They hear and do what they want and blame the pilot group when something goes wrong. This pilot group has been very professional and has saved AirTran Millions! I know for a fact a couple of guys who took other offers after that Christmas fiasco and the disrespect shown by management. I'm totally not surprised with the high attrition currently going on.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Maybe he wants to be around the professional scabs?

You are a DumbA$$. That comment just shows what an A$$ you really are.

 

[gt1900]

Hey TY.. I know MB as well.. And if I was in managments position, I wouldn't negotiate a god dam thing with that guy.. Sorry, but thats they way I feel, and I have known him longer than you. When he gets online hes gonna go right up there with the likes of a certain original Airways capt with the initials S.S... Hell, I would bid reserve so I don't have to fly with him..Don't get me wrong, he knows his chit.. But as far as having someone trying to negotiate a contract, there is a thing called tact, and he has none of it.. As far as the union goes, I support them 100%.. But I also think they have thier heads up thier @ss somtimes, just like the company.. Calling our management Frank Lorenzo style management was the start of the piss poor negotiations. FR bankrupted CAL and fired all the pilots only to hire "SOME" of them back at a much lower rate.. Im pretty sure JL brought AAI from bankruptcy and negotiated a pay raise thats not all that bad considering current times.. A far cry from Lorenzo, I don't care how you twist it....... I hate to tell you this, but if someone said that to me.. Hell ya, it would be personal...You might as well call me a "punk @ss b!tch".. If you know anyone who's ever spent a couple years in a corrections center go ask them what that means.. Ya, its personal.. Im actually suprised the company is talking to our union at all, let alone at the negotiating table and TA'ing 10 sections.. The truth in this entire B.S lies somewhere between what the union and the company have to say.. Its not 100% the company's fault and not 100% the unions fault..... .What amazes me though, is you don't seem to give a rats @ss that MB was sitting on his @ss being payed by the union for the last couple months while doing jack chit... If he was removed from negotiations, his @ss should have been back on line within a month.. Not 4 months later while drawing a salery that WE the pilots pay for..

 

[DonVerita]

I'm speaking to what this pilot group has done the last couple of years to save AirTran millions of dollars. I for one don't appreciate the way this management team has disrespected this pilot group with their childish games. There is no accountability in the middle management ranks and it has lead to poor morale. I wasn't impressed by the VP's letter at all. It was a slap in the face and shows they again aren't willing to face up to the reality of what really is wrong with our operation internally. They hear and do what they want and blame the pilot group when something goes wrong. This pilot group has been very professional and has saved AirTran Millions! I know for a fact a couple of guys who took other offers after that Christmas fiasco and the disrespect shown by management. I'm totally not surprised with the high attrition currently going on.

Amen brother. Management is the first to tell themselves how great they are with yet another bonus while at the same time spitting on labor with their uncaring callousness and intimidation tactics. Typical for this airline.

 

[DonVerita]

We have gate air at all ATL and almost all outsatation jetways. 95% of the time there is no real need for the APU to be on, and if there is one then mine is on.

Having it and using it are two different things altogether. I'd have to disagree with you on that 95% figure.

 

[Ty Webb]

Get your facts straight!

Calling our management Frank Lorenzo style management was the start of the piss poor negotiations.

Get your facts straight. . . . quit being a useful idiot . . . It wasn't Mike Best that made that statement, it was Steven James, who has been gone now for over two years.

Here is the quote . . . and it rings even more true today than it did then:

"Pilot leaders say they're also angry about fat pay raises for AirTran's top executives last year, disclosed shortly after the airline asked for concessions in the next pilot contract. . . . .

"We have a Southwest [Airlines]-style contract implemented by a Lorenzo-style management," complained union official Stephen James, likening AirTran's executives to former Texas Air chief Frank Lorenzo, who was reviled by labor leaders after taking over several big airlines in the 1970s and '80s and slashing costs and jobs.

Invoking Lorenzo is an indirect shot at AirTran Chief Executive Joe Leonard, one of Lorenzo's lieutenants in the mid-1980s. He was chief operating officer of now-defunct Eastern Airlines when it was part of Lorenzo's empire and was ripped apart by labor strife. . . . . .".



.

 

[-9Capt]

The truth in this entire B.S lies somewhere between what the union and the company have to say.. Its not 100% the company's fault and not 100% the unions fault..... .What amazes me though, is you don't seem to give a rats @ss that MB was sitting on his @ss being payed by the union for the last couple months while doing jack chit... If he was removed from negotiations, his @ss should have been back on line within a month.. Not 4 months later while drawing a salery that WE the pilots pay for..

Who the hell have you been flying with? Who's feeding you this BS?

I've sat in on many arbitrations, management lies. Seen it a million times. Hell, they just fired your hotel chairman for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the supposed email he sent.

MB sits on his a$$ and gets paid by the union you say?? Are you out of your mind or just ignorant of the facts? He is paid (not payed) as a contractor, to teach contract compliance classes and various other duties. He is basically training his replacements as he did the work of 10 people. If you knew him, as you claim, you'd know he's a tireless worker who is stedfast and dedicated to the pilot group.

 

[-9Capt]

You (meaning all you "company men") are the reason no progress has happen in the pass. Do you really believe that removing one person at the table would change anything.

Amen.

We could have had a contract signed a year ago if this pilot group would have done what needs to be done.

 

[gt1900]

Ty.. I didn't say MB made the qoute now did I... Re-read my entire quote. It was a quote made by our union that made these negotiations personal.. Simple as that.. I stand by what I said...
"As far as the union goes, I support them 100%.. But I also think they have thier heads up thier @ss somtimes, just like the company.. Calling our management Frank Lorenzo style management was the start of the piss poor negotiations."

So as you so put it.. "get your facts straight, and quite being a useful idiot"

 

[USARET]

It's more than obvious to me that management had been successful in it's "divide and conquer" tactics. From the "all is well "crowd to "it's the end of the world as we know it" group, I'd say management is ready to finish this thing off with a nice POS contract that will most likely get voted in. Unfortunate to say the least.

 

[FlyWolf]

After reading this entire thread (and remembering my old nasty commuter job and what we had to go through), can't help myself but to pray that the meh/aai merger doesn't go through.

 

[fletch717]

After reading this entire thread (and remembering my old nasty commuter job and what we had to go through), can't help myself but to pray that the meh/aai merger doesn't go through.

Really? From what I can tell your contract is a lot worse than AirTran, But hey your management loves you. So you've got that going for you, which is nice.

 

[Lear70]

After reading this entire thread (and remembering my old nasty commuter job and what we had to go through), can't help myself but to pray that the meh/aai merger doesn't go through.

Wolf, you gotta remember... the majority of the rank-and-file pilots don't suffer anything except for a long contract negotiation without COLA raises.

I've been reassigned ONCE in a year. That includes being on reserve. 99% of the time I complete my flight as-scheduled which means I really haven't been bothered with the management tactic of rescheduling pay.

I was already off for Christmas Eve and simply didn't answer my phone the couple days leading up to Christmas Day when I had to work. No Junior Assignment.

The majority of us don't have a problem and aren't really negatively affected. This place is SO much better than where I came from, that I have a hard time staying mad when I hear something the company is doing, because it doesn't affect me or many of the pilots I know here (I can think of 2 out of dozens I know who were affected by recent side letters and pooch screws).

Do I like the way the company violates our contract? No. Do I like the way our negotiations are going? No. Do I think it affects only a small percentage of the overall group? For now, yes.

THAT'S why I worry about a sub-standard T.A. The Association isn't shooting for anything that would bring us on par with even JetBlue's blended rates, much less SWA, and the rank-and-file guys don't see what the MEC officers see with what management does every day. A LOT of our pilots think this job is fine, and would be happy with a few tweaks (hence the 40/60 split on the last election vote).

I can't imagine that the line operations at MEH are that much better. Most of us come to work, do our jobs, go home, and get paid properly, just like you guys. I don't think it'd be a huge decrease in QOL for the MEH guys to be AAI pilots.

Not that I'm "for" such a thing now,,, far from it, as you already know.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Out of my class of 15, 14 are still here over 5 years later.

Out of my class, 4 of 7 are still here.

1. In the hiring pool at Southwest when he was hired here. Left as soon as he could. Nice guy (lived in a Southwest pilot base city). By his on admission, never gave AirTran a chance because Southwest was his #1 goal.

2. Interviewed at Southwest 6 mnts after being hired at AirTran. He thought training was too disorganized compared to the military. This was his first airline. He also lives in a Southwest domicile. Also a good guy. When I talked to him on the phone, he said that the culture is just different at Southwest, and in hindsight, he feels that going to Southwest was the best move he ever made.

3. He left here for Emirates about 3 months before upgrade. He said that he always wanted to fly widebodies and always wanted to fly across the pond. I personally didn't get it, but he was senior to me, and the rest of my classmates were happy to move up a number.

 

[FlyWolf]

Really? From what I can tell your contract is a lot worse than AirTran, But hey your management loves you. So you've got that going for you, which is nice.

I didn't say anything about contracts. All about the QOL, and yes our management respect the pilot group (most of the times), after all we provide that Best care in the air, remember

 

[FlyWolf]

Wolf, you gotta remember... the majority of the rank-and-file pilots don't suffer anything except for a long contract negotiation without COLA raises.

I've been reassigned ONCE in a year. That includes being on reserve. 99% of the time I complete my flight as-scheduled which means I really haven't been bothered with the management tactic of rescheduling pay.

I was already off for Christmas Eve and simply didn't answer my phone the couple days leading up to Christmas Day when I had to work. No Junior Assignment.

The majority of us don't have a problem and aren't really negatively affected. This place is SO much better than where I came from, that I have a hard time staying mad when I hear something the company is doing, because it doesn't affect me or many of the pilots I know here (I can think of 2 out of dozens I know who were affected by recent side letters and pooch screws).

Do I like the way the company violates our contract? No. Do I like the way our negotiations are going? No. Do I think it affects only a small percentage of the overall group? For now, yes.

THAT'S why I worry about a sub-standard T.A. The Association isn't shooting for anything that would bring us on par with even JetBlue's blended rates, much less SWA, and the rank-and-file guys don't see what the MEC officers see with what management does every day. A LOT of our pilots think this job is fine, and would be happy with a few tweaks (hence the 40/60 split on the last election vote).

I can't imagine that the line operations at MEH are that much better. Most of us come to work, do our jobs, go home, and get paid properly, just like you guys. I don't think it'd be a huge decrease in QOL for the MEH guys to be AAI pilots.

Not that I'm "for" such a thing now,,, far from it, as you already know.

Just my .02 cents.

Thanks for the clarification Lear70, it just sounds pretty bad reading this thread.

Our contract is up in 08, and I am sure we will be going through the same issues soon.

Good luck to you guys with your contract negotiations.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Get your facts straight. . . . quit being a useful idiot . . . It wasn't Mike Best that made that statement, it was Steven James, who has been gone now for over two years.

Here is the quote . . . and it rings even more true today than it did then:

"Pilot leaders say they're also angry about fat pay raises for AirTran's top executives last year, disclosed shortly after the airline asked for concessions in the next pilot contract. . . . .

"We have a Southwest [Airlines]-style contract implemented by a Lorenzo-style management," complained union official Stephen James, likening AirTran's executives to former Texas Air chief Frank Lorenzo, who was reviled by labor leaders after taking over several big airlines in the 1970s and '80s and slashing costs and jobs.

Invoking Lorenzo is an indirect shot at AirTran Chief Executive Joe Leonard, one of Lorenzo's lieutenants in the mid-1980s. He was chief operating officer of now-defunct Eastern Airlines when it was part of Lorenzo's empire and was ripped apart by labor strife. . . . . .".



.

In terms of fact, Steven James left AirTran in the summer of 2006 to "Fly Widebodies and Fly International". He was a classmate of mine, and was involved in the union pretty much right up til he resigned from AirTran.

Like gt1900 said, the quote in an NPA quote.

Although Steve said it didn't expect to read it like that in the newspaper, came from a NPA official, and therefore the NPA gets credit for saying it.