New Rest Rules tomorrow, 12/21/11

[scoreboardII]

But lear it doesn't matter, if you need 8:45, thats what you need and per the new rule of you needing to sign that you're not fatigued, you get 8:45.

 

[Lear70]

But lear it doesn't matter, if you need 8:45, thats what you need and per the new rule of you needing to sign that you're not fatigued, you get 8:45.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when people start doing that... I'm sure the company will come up with some modification of the fatigue program if it starts to become a problem that impacts daily On-Time.

Perhaps the "Fatigue Mitigation Program" will be the elimination of pay protection for fatigue calls from anything except IROPS that resulted in unplanned exceedance of the FDP table.

For everything pilots do, there is an equal and opposite reaction from what management does. (speaking of the industry, not of SWA or any particular airline).

 

[scoreboardII]

I'll tell you what, the fatigue calls will mount as folks start to realize they need to sign documents stating they are fit for duty. Might as well sign paperwork stating you don't have a headache or need food.

Pulling pay for fatigue calls? I didn't get the rest I needed at the craptastic hotel the company put me in so yes, they better pay me my wage.

They already pull no pay if you call fatigued before you start the trip, thats reasonable; you show up tired for work, your fault, your kids fault, nobodys fault, why should the company pay you?.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They did better. 10 hours free from duty. At my airline duty ends 15 minutes after block in and starts 30 prior to block out. 10:45 block to block is better than a lot of pairings currently provide.

Then there's 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. I'm not resting when I'm showering and getting ready for the day. I would interpret this as 8 hours from door closed to alarm goes off. For me, 8:45 behind the door.

And then you have to add in time for a few beers - how are you supposed to relax without a few cold ones? So let's make that . . . 20 hours?

 

[IslandDriver]

As far as signing for fitness. When I signed the release, as a Captain in my regional days, it was acknoledging that I was "Physically Qualified" to perform the duties of PIC. I always took that to mean that I was rested too.

I suppose the release will need 2 signatures.

 

[Lear70]

I'll tell you what, the fatigue calls will mount as folks start to realize they need to sign documents stating they are fit for duty.

We'll see... I doubt it.

Pulling pay for fatigue calls? I didn't get the rest I needed at the craptastic hotel the company put me in so yes, they better pay me my wage.

Craptastic... love that word. It covers so many different subjects.

They already pull no pay if you call fatigued before you start the trip, thats reasonable; you show up tired for work, your fault, your kids fault, nobodys fault, why should the company pay you?.

You do realize Southwest is about the only company that does that, right? At most carriers, if you call fatigue at the outstation and they can get someone in to cover, when you come out of rest, they pull you without pay and your next flight is to the Chief Pilot's office to explain. Do that enough and you might find yourself qualifying under the company's attendance policy which, at many companies, can get you fired.

A fatigue call is different than the protections under most CBA's sick policies... Just because SWA recognizes the importance of well-rested crews doesn't mean other airlines do (most don't).

 

[scoreboardII]

You realize SWA had something on the order of 55 fatigue calls last year out of 1,200,000 flights?

I agree, probably no spike in fatigue calls until someone is hammered for an issue and when they say "I was tired" the company plops down the paper the pilot signed saying he wasn't.

Then folks will wise up.

I understand other airlines suck wrt fatigue calls, it's just not an issue unless you let them put you in a craptasticly (I think I saw that for the first time here on FI)loud room and say nothing till your eyes bleed. Squeeky wheel gets the grease.

 

[dicko]

We'll see... I doubt it.


Craptastic... love that word. It covers so many different subjects.


You do realize Southwest is about the only company that does that, right? At most carriers, if you call fatigue at the outstation and they can get someone in to cover, when you come out of rest, they pull you without pay and your next flight is to the Chief Pilot's office to explain. Do that enough and you might find yourself qualifying under the company's attendance policy which, at many companies, can get you fired.

A fatigue call is different than the protections under most CBA's sick policies... Just because SWA recognizes the importance of well-rested crews doesn't mean other airlines do (most don't).

Your next flight after the 'Fatigue rest' will be a deadhead or a working flight. Both incur a minimum of 4 hours pay. I've been payed for both.

You're correct about the repeat offender issue. That will get you the magnifying glass treatment. Like an ant in the sun.

 

[Turtle21]

Just as an off shoot, and a WTF moment reading those 330+ pages. On the subject of reduced rest below the 10 hours. ATA wanted reduced rest provisions, ALPA AGREED with them. Really?!?!? Anyways, FAA said, nope, we are dealing with fixing rest. Fix your schedules so you don't have to reduce rest.....

Really ALPA?

ALPA feathering the companies... And folks act surprised?:laugh:

 

[HA25]

ALPA feathering the companies... And folks act surprised?:laugh:

ALPA is nothing more than an RJ union anymore.... we need to get a totally new model for pilot unions.

 

[Turtle21]

The snowball rolling down the hill is irregular operations. Say you divert, hit the 8 hour point, however now we can fly to 9. But the scheduled flight is 61 minutes from divert to overnight, now you're done when before you could have kept going till you cried uncle.

Or better, lets say you hit the 8 hr point after you diverted, the flight from divert to overnight airfield is 30 minutes with a 31 minute divert flight because it's still at minimums. I consider I will need to account for all possible flight time, including another divert. And yes, I have diverted twice in one day.

It looks like you can extend past the scheduled FDP for unforeseen operational circumstances (up to two hour extension), with different conditions prior to or after takeoff. Also some pretty strong restrictions and reporting requirements if the extension is longer than 30 minutes.

§ 117.19 Flight duty period extensions.
(a) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational circumstances arise prior to takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part up to 2 hours.
(2) An extension in the flight duty period under paragraph (a)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in § 117.25(b).
(3) A flight duty period cannot be extended under paragraph (a)(1) of this section if it causes a flightcrew member to exceed the cumulative flight duty period limits specified in 117.23(c).
(4) Each certificate holder must report to the Administrator within 10 days any flight duty period that exceeded the maximum flight duty period permitted in Tables B or C of this part by more than 30 minutes. The report must contain the following:
(i) A description of the extended flight duty period and the circumstances surrounding the need for the extension; and
(ii) If the circumstances giving rise to the extension were within the certificate holder’s control, the corrective action(s) that the certificate holder intends to take to minimize the need for future extensions.
(5) Each certificate holder must implement the corrective action(s) reported in paragraph (a)(4) of this section within 30 days from the date of the extended flight duty period.

(b) For augmented and unaugmented operations, if unforeseen operational
circumstances arise after takeoff:
(1) The pilot in command and the certificate holder may extend maximum flight duty periods specified in Tables B or C of this part to the extent necessary to safely land the aircraft at the next destination airport or alternate airport, as appropriate.
(2) An extension of the flight duty period under paragraph (b)(1) of this section of more than 30 minutes may occur only once prior to receiving a rest period described in § 117.25(b).
(3) An extension taken under paragraph (b) of this section may exceed the cumulative flight duty period limits specified in 117.23(c).
(4) Each certificate holder must report to the Administrator within 10 days any flight duty period that exceeded the maximum flight duty period limits permitted by Tables B or C of this part. The report must contain a description of the circumstances surrounding the affected flight duty period.

 

[Turtle21]

You must have some really crappy pairings, I haven't done less than a 10 hour overnight in months, and maybe only one or two in the last year.


Not sure how you got that out of the reg.

It's 8 hours behind the door. If it's going to be less than that because of delays getting to the hotel or checking in, you can adjust it accordingly, but it's not 8 hours plus time to get ready and get downstairs... nice try though.

Eight hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity. I can't sleep while I am brushing my teeth.

And on occasion I have been unable to sleep because of terribly rude mobs of drunk guests in a hotel. If I call the hotel night manager and tell him that he needs to come up to the 5th floor to inform his drunk guests to kindly be quiet so that his many other guests have the opportunity to sleep without interruption... then the night hotel manager will surely remember my sleep opportunity was interrupted when he is subpenaed to testify at my accident investigation.

If scheduling calls me at the hotel and wakes my ass up (or asks the hotel clerk to knock on my door to reach me) to ask if I can help them out, then I'll tell them to hack their clock and call me back in eight hours after I have had my uninterrupted sleep opportunity.

§ 117.25 Rest period.

(e) The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.
(f) If a flightcrew member determines that a rest period under paragraph (e) of this section will not provide eight uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity, the flightcrew member must notify the certificate holder.

And the clarifying info from page 227:

Based on the comments received from the certificate holders, the FAA agrees that using the time when a flightcrew member reaches the hotel or other suitable accommodation would present more issues for implementation than it actually solved. The FAA’s main objective with this provision was to ensure that flightcrew members have an 8 hour sleep opportunity. Building from that and mindful of the comments received, the FAA has decided to adopt a 10 consecutive hour rest requirement that immediately precedes the beginning of a reserve or FDP measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. At this point, if the flightcrew member cannot have 8 uninterrupted hours of rest opportunity, the flightcrew member cannot report for the assigned FDP until he/she receives that rest. If the reason for the shortened rest opportunity is travel delays, reservation confusion, or the flightcrew member’s actions, the certificate holder is free to address the root cause. However, it must provide the required 8-hour rest opportunity.

 

[Turtle21]

They did better. 10 hours free from duty. At my airline duty ends 15 minutes after block in and starts 30 prior to block out. 10:45 block to block is better than a lot of pairings currently provide.

Then there's 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. I'm not resting when I'm showering and getting ready for the day. I would interpret this as 8 hours from door closed to alarm goes off. For me, 8:45 behind the door.

The ten hours free of duty will eliminate the 9:15 crap that some of our pairings have, a good deal.

However the real gem is the 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity. The airlines would be fools to plan less than 9 hours at the hotel since it would be unreasonable to deny crews 30 minutes to brush their teeth and get into their pajamas for the night and 30 minutes in the morning to reverse the process.

But the real beauty will be when the occasional drunk party animal crowd wakes me up. I will have to call the night manager to have him come upstairs and do some of that management vodoo on the drunks,... then I will be obligated to immediately call my scheduler and tell them (on a recorded phone line) that I just finished having a conversation with the hotel night manager about my interrupted sleep. Hack the clock for eight hours.

 

[Lear70]

But the real beauty will be when the occasional drunk party animal crowd wakes me up. I will have to call the night manager to have him come upstairs and do some of that management vodoo on the drunks,... then I will be obligated to immediately call my scheduler and tell them (on a recorded phone line) that I just finished having a conversation with the hotel night manager about my interrupted sleep. Hack the clock for eight hours.

That's completely reasonable.

However the real gem is the 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity. The airlines would be fools to plan less than 9 hours at the hotel since it would be unreasonable to deny crews 30 minutes to brush their teeth and get into their pajamas for the night and 30 minutes in the morning to reverse the process.

Yeah, good luck with telling your chief pilots you needed extra time to brush your teeth and wrap up in your snuggy.

By the way, the airlines aren't GOING to plan less than 9 hours at the hotel. They have to PLAN for at least 10 hours off-duty (which includes the post-flight the night before and pre-flight report the next day). Not too many places that are going to take longer than half an hour each-way to/from the hotel.

 

[scoreboardII]

It looks like you can extend past the scheduled FDP for unforeseen operational circumstances (up to two hour extension), with different conditions prior to or after takeoff. Also some pretty strong restrictions and reporting requirements if the extension is longer than 30 minutes.

So, the penalty for exceeding the limit is more time doing paperwork after work that we don't get paid for? Riiiigght.