New Rest Rules tomorrow, 12/21/11

[PCL_128]

See, wave, we can agree occasionally.

 

[Lear70]

See, wave, we can agree occasionally.

Oh Jesus, the apocalypse is near...

I like 4 days, but MCO doesn't have them.

 

[Crzipilot]

Just as an off shoot, and a WTF moment reading those 330+ pages. On the subject of reduced rest below the 10 hours. ATA wanted reduced rest provisions, ALPA AGREED with them. Really?!?!? Anyways, FAA said, nope, we are dealing with fixing rest. Fix your schedules so you don't have to reduce rest.....

Really ALPA?

 

[scoreboardII]

The snowball rolling down the hill is irregular operations. Say you divert, hit the 8 hour point, however now we can fly to 9. But the scheduled flight is 61 minutes from divert to overnight, now you're done when before you could have kept going till you cried uncle.

Or better, lets say you hit the 8 hr point after you diverted, the flight from divert to overnight airfield is 30 minutes with a 31 minute divert flight because it's still at minimums. I consider I will need to account for all possible flight time, including another divert. And yes, I have diverted twice in one day.

 

[labbats]

Just as an off shoot, and a WTF moment reading those 330+ pages. On the subject of reduced rest below the 10 hours. ATA wanted reduced rest provisions, ALPA AGREED with them. Really?!?!? Anyways, FAA said, nope, we are dealing with fixing rest. Fix your schedules so you don't have to reduce rest.....

Really ALPA?

Is this for real? If so that says a lot.

 

[waveflyer]

Here it is: check it out

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2120-AJ58-FinalRule.pdf

 

[waveflyer]

Just as an off shoot, and a WTF moment reading those 330+ pages. On the subject of reduced rest below the 10 hours. ATA wanted reduced rest provisions, ALPA AGREED with them. Really?!?!? Anyways, FAA said, nope, we are dealing with fixing rest. Fix your schedules so you don't have to reduce rest.....

Really ALPA?

To help out- crzi- can you tell us where you saw that?

 

[Metro752]

Four day trips suck.

 

[densoo]

Rest to begin behind closed door didn't seem to make it in.

They did better. 10 hours free from duty. At my airline duty ends 15 minutes after block in and starts 30 prior to block out. 10:45 block to block is better than a lot of pairings currently provide.

Then there's 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. I'm not resting when I'm showering and getting ready for the day. I would interpret this as 8 hours from door closed to alarm goes off. For me, 8:45 behind the door.

 

[Lear70]

They did better. 10 hours free from duty. At my airline duty ends 15 minutes after block in and starts 30 prior to block out. 10:45 block to block is better than a lot of pairings currently provide.

You must have some really crappy pairings, I haven't done less than a 10 hour overnight in months, and maybe only one or two in the last year.

Then there's 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. I'm not resting when I'm showering and getting ready for the day. I would interpret this as 8 hours from door closed to alarm goes off. For me, 8:45 behind the door.

Not sure how you got that out of the reg.

It's 8 hours behind the door. If it's going to be less than that because of delays getting to the hotel or checking in, you can adjust it accordingly, but it's not 8 hours plus time to get ready and get downstairs... nice try though.

 

[scoreboardII]

But lear it doesn't matter, if you need 8:45, thats what you need and per the new rule of you needing to sign that you're not fatigued, you get 8:45.

 

[Lear70]

But lear it doesn't matter, if you need 8:45, thats what you need and per the new rule of you needing to sign that you're not fatigued, you get 8:45.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when people start doing that... I'm sure the company will come up with some modification of the fatigue program if it starts to become a problem that impacts daily On-Time.

Perhaps the "Fatigue Mitigation Program" will be the elimination of pay protection for fatigue calls from anything except IROPS that resulted in unplanned exceedance of the FDP table.

For everything pilots do, there is an equal and opposite reaction from what management does. (speaking of the industry, not of SWA or any particular airline).

 

[scoreboardII]

I'll tell you what, the fatigue calls will mount as folks start to realize they need to sign documents stating they are fit for duty. Might as well sign paperwork stating you don't have a headache or need food.

Pulling pay for fatigue calls? I didn't get the rest I needed at the craptastic hotel the company put me in so yes, they better pay me my wage.

They already pull no pay if you call fatigued before you start the trip, thats reasonable; you show up tired for work, your fault, your kids fault, nobodys fault, why should the company pay you?.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They did better. 10 hours free from duty. At my airline duty ends 15 minutes after block in and starts 30 prior to block out. 10:45 block to block is better than a lot of pairings currently provide.

Then there's 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. I'm not resting when I'm showering and getting ready for the day. I would interpret this as 8 hours from door closed to alarm goes off. For me, 8:45 behind the door.

And then you have to add in time for a few beers - how are you supposed to relax without a few cold ones? So let's make that . . . 20 hours?

 

[IslandDriver]

As far as signing for fitness. When I signed the release, as a Captain in my regional days, it was acknoledging that I was "Physically Qualified" to perform the duties of PIC. I always took that to mean that I was rested too.

I suppose the release will need 2 signatures.

 

[Lear70]

I'll tell you what, the fatigue calls will mount as folks start to realize they need to sign documents stating they are fit for duty.

We'll see... I doubt it.

Pulling pay for fatigue calls? I didn't get the rest I needed at the craptastic hotel the company put me in so yes, they better pay me my wage.

Craptastic... love that word. It covers so many different subjects.

They already pull no pay if you call fatigued before you start the trip, thats reasonable; you show up tired for work, your fault, your kids fault, nobodys fault, why should the company pay you?.

You do realize Southwest is about the only company that does that, right? At most carriers, if you call fatigue at the outstation and they can get someone in to cover, when you come out of rest, they pull you without pay and your next flight is to the Chief Pilot's office to explain. Do that enough and you might find yourself qualifying under the company's attendance policy which, at many companies, can get you fired.

A fatigue call is different than the protections under most CBA's sick policies... Just because SWA recognizes the importance of well-rested crews doesn't mean other airlines do (most don't).

 

[scoreboardII]

You realize SWA had something on the order of 55 fatigue calls last year out of 1,200,000 flights?

I agree, probably no spike in fatigue calls until someone is hammered for an issue and when they say "I was tired" the company plops down the paper the pilot signed saying he wasn't.

Then folks will wise up.

I understand other airlines suck wrt fatigue calls, it's just not an issue unless you let them put you in a craptasticly (I think I saw that for the first time here on FI)loud room and say nothing till your eyes bleed. Squeeky wheel gets the grease.

 

[dicko]

We'll see... I doubt it.


Craptastic... love that word. It covers so many different subjects.


You do realize Southwest is about the only company that does that, right? At most carriers, if you call fatigue at the outstation and they can get someone in to cover, when you come out of rest, they pull you without pay and your next flight is to the Chief Pilot's office to explain. Do that enough and you might find yourself qualifying under the company's attendance policy which, at many companies, can get you fired.

A fatigue call is different than the protections under most CBA's sick policies... Just because SWA recognizes the importance of well-rested crews doesn't mean other airlines do (most don't).

Your next flight after the 'Fatigue rest' will be a deadhead or a working flight. Both incur a minimum of 4 hours pay. I've been payed for both.

You're correct about the repeat offender issue. That will get you the magnifying glass treatment. Like an ant in the sun.

 

[Turtle21]

Just as an off shoot, and a WTF moment reading those 330+ pages. On the subject of reduced rest below the 10 hours. ATA wanted reduced rest provisions, ALPA AGREED with them. Really?!?!? Anyways, FAA said, nope, we are dealing with fixing rest. Fix your schedules so you don't have to reduce rest.....

Really ALPA?

ALPA feathering the companies... And folks act surprised?:laugh:

 

[HA25]

ALPA feathering the companies... And folks act surprised?:laugh:

ALPA is nothing more than an RJ union anymore.... we need to get a totally new model for pilot unions.