New generation of USAF officers

[HarryShadow]

The "goof offs" are the ones who will end up graduating #1 from ROTC, #1 from UPT, get their top choice and have a kick a*s career. Don't be too quick to judge. I was probably the goof-off, top of my class, went to jump school, top choice from UPT, all my commanders loved me, etc. Nothing wrong with having a little fun with life...be it ROTC or active duty, but join ROTC (no commitment until you go to field training), and see for yourself what it's all about!!!

 

[ExAF]

Standards?

I don't think there are any standards you have to meet to take ROTC. It is a class offered through the school and is open to anyone that wants to enrol. Once in the class you have to comply with their rules if you want to pass. Now scholarship students are a different animal.

 

[AlbieF15]

I was a ROTC screw up. I hated it. I detested the little Nazis that took things waaaay too seriously. I like some of the officer Cadre, but it was obvious some of them were not the A team guys.

However--I was smart enough to know what the commission and pilot slot could do for me. So I did what it took...

Magically when I showed up at UPT about 90% of those folks simply didn't show up--they went into other fields. I looked around at my UPT class and thought "dang--what a good bunch...." And it was...

I never will forget seeing a former Nazi classmate who hated my guts back at college. She was a Dod contractor, as she had been RIF'd before making captain. Many, many, many of those former Nazis didn't make major back in 90s and likewise found other jobs. Dispite my "poor attitude" and "anti authority personality" I managed to fly F-15s most of my career and am currently an O-5. Guess who I see now when I see silver oak leaves and commander announcements--the same guys I used to booze with back at AU days and snicker about the Hitler youth. Those who married their little Eva Brauns (fellow female cadets) all seemed to end up divorced too.

Lots of generalizations I know--but the Air Force IS NOT like ROTC. ROTC is a way to get to the AF, but don't get too wrapped around the axel judging your future by the present.

 

[McGillicutty]

Very refreshing reads from both highside and AlbieF15.

 

[Huggyu2]

My ROTC experience (Univ of Texas) was apparently somewhat unique: I had a blast, and I really enjoyed the ROTC folks. Maybe time has diluted the bad memories, but I remember nearly everyone as being well-rounded, and someone I could go run around town with on the weekend. In my year group, 1 guy made Major 2 below the zone... and he was a Comm Officer.
Also, I did social/club stuff with guys from the Navy/Marine and the Army ROTC. Good times.
This thread is making me wonder how much things must have changed over the years. Then again, maybe it's just my perception.
Bottom line: I got involved in ROTC, made some friends, met my wife of 18 years, had a blast, and got a career that I wouldn't trade back.

 

[kingsize]

I agree with highside. I wish some of those JTACs were pilots. After being an ALO and working with hardcore enlisted guys who were very physically active, lived life to the fullest, and always pushed the envelope in combat and in peacetime, I almost feel out of place flying again. There are lots of pilots who talk the talk, but few that can walk it. Frankly, I'm disappointed by the lack of leadership and lack of self discipline (lots of fat pilots out there, and lots that don't know how to behave like officers in situations) in my fellow pilots.

Back to the main topic...I agree that the newer generations are different, and bring some challenges. From all sources of commissioning, I see a lot of new guys who feel entitled to everything, or who forget that they are there to serve their country.

 

[XShipRider]

This reminds me of those in the USN who don't want to serve on a ship.
Same prinicple but different service. There were many people who suddenly
pulled the old 'sports injury' trick to avoid sea service. Sadly most of them
got away with it.

How do these kids slip through the cracks during interviews/screenings
and the like?

No intent to 'jack the thread with reference to another service.

 

[RickKC-135]

You guys crack me up. Now that I'm an old retired guy I'll pass on a story from an O-6 when I graduated UPT. He came to the flight room and proceeded to say what a jump we were taking into the operational world and we would soon be instructors either by staying as a FAIP or after some time operational. He went on to say, when the time comes and you are flying with that guy who is not quite up to speed and you start to loose your patience and think "these new guys suck and there's now way I was ever like this" trust me you were just as bad because I've flown with every one of you several times.

Additionally, to the fighter guys; not everyone wants to fly a fighter. It may surprise you but in my UPT class the #1 grad took a C-141, #2 a KC-10, then a couple of fighters. The B-1 went with fighters and T-38's still left. One guy had the choice of a KC-135 or a T-38 and took the tanker. When they started the NFL Draft style assignments, the brass was really surprised to see how the assignments fell out.

 

[milplt]

You missed the point that I was making. It has nothing to do with whether you liked ROTC/Academy, etc. or how you did in UPT. The new generation is always the same - but back then there was no PC b******t to prevent the old dudes from shaping the new guys. UPT was tougher back then - don't try to tell me differently - I have been in AETC since 2000 in both the USN and USAF and I was a student in the late 80's/early nineties. Students now will almost quote the CTS if you try to give them less than a G or 4 or whatever you use where you are. Old dudes - what is a CTS? Anybody from the UPT bases care to tell me how many people have actually been attrited lately (not just sent to the Wing CC and returned - actually gone). Gradesheets are written for the lawyers, now. Hell, UPT students will freely admit that they are coming into the military for the sole purpose of transitioning to the airlines after the commitment is up. I would have liked to see you try to say that openly in 1992 - you'd have been escorted to the front gate. For the old nuggets, how many of you would have written a UPT end-of-course critique (sp?) (yes, they have those now for UPT) saying that your contact checkride evaluator was too nit-picky on his ground eval and the flight eval didn't accurately reflect what really happened in the air. It happens now - I was the evaluator and I saw the comments from the student. As an instructor, I have had to tell students that if I work harder during the flight than they do and I care more in the debrief than they do then something is definitely wrong. They have no fear anymore - we can't do anything to them. One student told his evaluator "That's BULL***T" when the evaluator told him he busted his checkride and then walked away and sat down. More insubordination followed - guess what, the Sq CC reinstated him into training - said the Lt "didn't know better." PS, the flight doc eventually got him booted from the service for medical reasons - THE FLIGHT DOC stepped up to pick up the trash left by the line officer CC. COME ON. WE (notice the collective WE) are failing at taking the new guys who are as new as they have always been and making them 100% operationally capable rounds. And pulling them aside one at a time isn't working - it is institutional.

Rick - as far as who selects fighters and who doesn't - you put too much weight into that. As a matter of fact, it takes work to find a T-37/T-34/T-6 student who will tell you they want the T-38 track. Timidness in UPT is an allowable trait, open fear of washing out of the T-38 track and selecting the T-1 instead is OK. And, as I said before, some will even say they want heavies for the future airline career. (Yes, I know the wisdom of their statement is a whole new debate - they are still young and naive). I don't care where they finished in Tweets, I want my fighter candidates to be lean forward and motivated. I taught primary UPT and just because they flew a good ILS didn't mean they would be any good at ACT or SAT (not the college tests) - they need to be motivated to spend countless hours in the WTD and vault and in the bar hanging on every word of the old craniums. In the old days, that is how wisdom was passed down - now all of that is just something to get in the way of "family time". I have been around the USAF more than most - look at my profile. As for the guy that selected -141's top of his class - moron with poor judgement. Same with the B-1's - not that the B-1 isn't a great offensive weapon. But you made it sound like this was a while ago, and 150 hrs/yr at Dyess with no ACE/CTP program sucks. Now, if it was in the last 2 years, then it was a good move to get some combat experiences. I'd fly a B-1 in a heartbeat now - just not in peacetime. One last thing - the dude who took KC-10's, no qualms with that - the -135 guy--????????????

 

[highside]

Sad

You guys crack me up. Now that I'm an old retired guy I'll pass on a story from an O-6 when I graduated UPT. He came to the flight room and proceeded to say what a jump we were taking into the operational world and we would soon be instructors either by staying as a FAIP or after some time operational. He went on to say, when the time comes and you are flying with that guy who is not quite up to speed and you start to loose your patience and think "these new guys suck and there's now way I was ever like this" trust me you were just as bad because I've flown with every one of you several times.

Additionally, to the fighter guys; not everyone wants to fly a fighter. It may surprise you but in my UPT class the #1 grad took a C-141, #2 a KC-10, then a couple of fighters. The B-1 went with fighters and T-38's still left. One guy had the choice of a KC-135 or a T-38 and took the tanker. When they started the NFL Draft style assignments, the brass was really surprised to see how the assignments fell out.

In a time of war, picking a tanker over a fighter?? If this would happen now that would be pathetic. I'll leave it at that. Your post proves that this aversion to fighting is not unique to the new generation, so perhaps there is nothing to worry about. I know NKAWTG, the same logic applies to everybody down to the janitor that empties the trash in my squadron. The simple fact is there are those that choose to carry the gun into the fight and those that choose to stand on the sidelines.
This does not include the people who never had a chance to fight because they didn't get the jet they wanted etc... But those who CHOOSE to keep out of the fight?!?! I don't understand why you put on the uniform if you don't want to fight. Just my opinion, and I've backed up my talk.

 

[BoilerUP]

In a time of war, picking a tanker over a fighter?? If this would happen now that would be pathetic. I'll leave it at that. Your post proves that this aversion to fighting is not unique to the new generation, so perhaps there is nothing to worry about. I know NKAWTG, the same logic applies to everybody down to the janitor that empties the trash in my squadron. The simple fact is there are those that choose to carry the gun into the fight and those that choose to stand on the sidelines.
This does not include the people who never had a chance to fight because they didn't get the jet they wanted etc... But those who CHOOSE to keep out of the fight?!?! I don't understand why you put on the uniform if you don't want to fight. Just my opinion, and I've backed up my talk.

...and the holier-than-thou attitude of some pointy-nose drivers continues...

 

[highside]

...and the holier-than-thou attitude of some pointy-nose drivers continues...

No, I just know where I stand. If you read my earlier post you'd see that I criticized the fighter guys (including myself) mentioning that I was humbled by the TACP's and Special Forces dudes that are on the ground fighting now. Many of them are enlisted, getting paid peanuts. I am not holier-than-them, and if one of those guys said something, the only reply I would have is "thank you". When I chose my fighter, I made a best guess as to where I would most likely see action. It was after Desert Storm. As OIF kicked off, I was an ALO, and my unit didn't bring us, so I told my commander to send me to the place where I'd see the most action. I got more than I bargained for on the ground in Iraq, but I'm proud of my service and humbled by the kids I fought alongside, I learned a lot there, including that there are plenty of dudes out there besides fighter pilots who understand service to their country. Many will get out way before their retirement quite uncerimoniously (sadly, as they did in 4 years what most never accomplished in 20). I certainly wouldn't jump into a special forces thread and tell those dudes "how it is". I know where I stand. I've witnessed some amazing feats of bravery and sadly, too many trajic losses of life of dudes who chose to carry a gun into combat. How many stories like this do you have? I just get really fired up when I see that attitude from you heavy guys, now is not the time.

 

[ExAF]

...and the holier-than-thou attitude of some pointy-nose drivers continues...

IMHO (or holier-than-thou opinion if you choose), as a pure civilian, you really don't have a dog in this fight/thread. There are carnivores and herbivores in this world. You are a herbivore and should stick to herbivore threads. As one who has not served (civilian on your profile), why would you feel like you've earned the right to enter into a discussion about warriors (heavy or fighter) among warriors. Do you think current and former military aviators discussing the future of military aviators gives a rat's @ss what you think on the subject? Consider your audience.

 

[BoilerUP]

IMHO (or holier-than-thou opinion if you choose), as a pure civilian, you really don't have a dog in this fight/thread. There are carnivores and herbivores in this world. You are a herbivore and should stick to herbivore threads. As one who has not served (civilian on your profile), why would you feel like you've earned the right to enter into a discussion about warriors (heavy or fighter) among warriors. Do you think current and former military aviators discussing the future of military aviators gives a rat's @ss what you think on the subject? Consider your audience.

I have been medically disqualified from service as an Air Force officer THREE times in the last four years; once in AFROTC (history of asthma), active duty (infected lymph node and an apathetic AD recruiter who wouldn't return my phone calls), and most recently ANG (high interocular pressure at MFS). I was enlisted in my ANG unit (C130) prior to being medically seperated.

Does that "earn me the right to enter into a discussion about warriors"?

 

[RickKC-135]

Milplt, and all others who critisize those that take a heavy over a fighter, there are good valid reasons why someone would take a heavy over a fighter and it has nothing to do with whether you want to serve your country on the front lines. At one of my last assignments I had a F-4 driver working for me. He was a civilian now because he descided flying fighters wasn't for him. Quite bluntly, he told me he just didn't have the skills to do it and almost died trying, twice. I have never flown a fighter but with 600 hours in the T-38, I think I can kind of guess what it's like and I descided it wasn't for me, it had absolutly nothing to do with weather I wanted to serve on the front lines.

Now back to the point of the thread. I have seen exactly what you are talking about many times and almost always it's because the leadership has failed in some way. However, what I have also seen many times is when the leadership fails the crew members always step up and "make it happen". Now the question we are all asking is; will this new generation of pilot step up when the time comes? In my experience there is only one way to find out put them in charge and see what happens.

I had a student one time who was exactly like the type of pilot we are talking about. I put way more effort into the training than he did, maybe I should have washed him out. Many of the other instructors said he wouldn't make it in an operational squadron. Long story short, when the time came, over in Afganistan he came through with flying colors. Like I said you never know until you put them in charge.

 

[milplt]

Unfortunately, you can't give everyone the chance to prove themselves in real life - either they make it early on in training or they don't. Back in '91-'92 when I got my wings, the stated objective was to specifically challenge us and see if we could hack it in training, if not - out we'd go. You were never more than 3 rides away from washing out - ever - and if they couldn't simulate combat, they'd turn up the heat the best they could. They fully admitted that most everyone could make it through training if given enough opportunities and re-attempts - but that wasn't an option (and every single UPT grad from '94 ish and prior knows exactly what I am talking about.) Now, the attitude is, and this is a quote from a UPT Wing CC; "given enough bananas you can teach a monkey to fly, and we have plenty of bananas." BS. I am glad that your stud made it through with flying colors, but if he had not, who would have paid the price? The ground forces who would have lost out without effective CAS and potentially taken casualties as a result. This isn't little league, everyone doesn't get an unlimited number of shots. My wingman in my previous post was also a bubble rider, and he didn't make it when it counted in my opinion - he wouldn't even get close enough to me to see what motor was on fire. And in an ACM engagement during a CAS exercise, his flight lead had to "beg" him to point his nose into the fight to schwack the bandit that the flight lead had anchored. Trust him in combat - never. Maybe they should have made the call on him early on in his UPT career - like those before us did - it took fortitude, but they did it.

Combat capability has taken a back seat to Equal Opportunity - make it through in the required gates, or go find something else to do should be the mantra. There are people behind you willing to step up to the plate. And, by the way, the ones that we are talking about are not the LT's who are busting their arses and just a little behind, these are guys who are looking to be spoonfed.

 

[kingsize]

I have been medically disqualified from service as an Air Force officer THREE times in the last four years; once in AFROTC (history of asthma), active duty (infected lymph node and an apathetic AD recruiter who wouldn't return my phone calls), and most recently ANG (high interocular pressure at MFS). I was enlisted in my ANG unit (C130) prior to being medically seperated.

Does that "earn me the right to enter into a discussion about warriors"?

No, not really. Not when your one "contribution" to the thread was to bash on fighters. Post content, not flame. Being medically disqualified is not a qualification, though I do applaud your persistence.

 

[RickKC-135]

Milplt, I think we agree on more than disagree. Yes, I fully support getting rid of the ones who can't cut it in the required number of attempts. Like I said, when this doesn't happen it's usually the leadership who has failed. However, what I am saying is; because these pilots are not "leaning forward" by your standards does not mean they will not when the time comes. Give these guys the challenge and see what happens, some will step up, some will not. Let me give you an example of where I think the leadership has failed us on this issue. When I went through UPT everyone got a checkride in T-38's as a flight lead. Today they only take a checkride as a wingman. Why did we stop challenging them in this way. My experience has been most pilots will step up when required and if they don't, get rid of them. I also agree the time to see if they will step up is not in a combat situation. I think anyone in the AF knows that our training system would never allow a guy to get that far without having prooven themself. The guy I was talking about had 3-4 years of training after he left me, and I'm sure his squadron would have never put him in the situation if they didn't think he could handle it.

 

[tomgoodman]

UPT in 1971

When I went through UPT everyone got a checkride in T-38's as a flight lead. Today they only take a checkride as a wingman.

I preferred the old single-track system. If you couldn't pass the T-38 four-ship formation check, you washed out of UPT. The AF wanted the ability to subsequently transfer any pilot to fighters or FACs because of the Vietnam War. Lots of tanker drivers were shifted to F-105s, for example. Can't prove that the T-38 experience made better multiengine pilots, but I think so. Due to many "saves", tanker pilots were honored guests in any fighter pilot bar, along with the chopper guys.
:beer:

 

[MalteseX]

The "goof offs" are the ones who will end up graduating #1 from ROTC, #1 from UPT, get their top choice and have a kick a*s career. Don't be too quick to judge. I was probably the goof-off, top of my class, went to jump school, top choice from UPT, all my commanders loved me, etc. Nothing wrong with having a little fun with life...be it ROTC or active duty, but join ROTC (no commitment until you go to field training), and see for yourself what it's all about!!!

Your reply was pretty much what I was thinking when reading the post about his "perceived" goof offs. From my experience those who were "motivated" in ROTC, ended up getting a blanket party or other nice little gifts from those of us who were (to outside observers) "unmotivated". (Remember, this was back in the days before "time out" cards and "tailhook hearings" and other touchy-feely programs). And not surprisingly the "motivated" guys never hacked it in the "real" (whatever THAT is) AF.