New generation of USAF officers

[Caveman]

Jesus. You guys sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons. It's always been this way. The old breed thinks the new breed doesn't have what it takes to be warriors. It's been the same old complaint since time immemorial. When the ******************** hits the fan the new guys ALWAYS step up and do what it takes to get the mission done. Don't sweat it. Do your part and LEAD and the rest will take care of itself.

The LCpls and Cpls I left behind when I retired almost a decade ago are now SSgts and GySgts leading Marines in combat and doing a fine job. It's the normal passing of the torch. Those fledgling young officers will be just fine.

 

[Merlin'05]

It depends on the person most of all. There are still people who love flying, love learning about the military, love trying to do as much as they can. There are also people who hate all that, and then those in between.

Myself though, I can't get enough of flying--of any type. I'll even take the back seat of an airliner. No wait, I'll take the back heavy if it means I'm in the air. I would always get livid when some guy would tell me the multiple F-15 or F-16 flight he got over the summer and how he didn't care about them. I tried begging, barrowing, or stealing for 4 years to get an Air Force ride and they either never worked out or got cancelled. The closest I got was in a BUFF--where we sat on the hammerhead for three hours engines running trying to fix the plane before they cancelled, and I immediately worked on getting another flight--which they refused (jackasses). My first AF ride in a cockpit area was in a KC-135 a few months back when I became a casual LT. I'll take that as much as they will allow me.

There were a bunch of ROTC and Academy guys out here (Altus) for their summer programs. In each group there were both types of people.

Talking to a lot of the older guys (I'm talking about going through pilot training in the 60s for example), there were still both groups. Things haven't changed.

The old guys will always say the new guys suck. The new guys will always say the old guys are... well... old and they don't need to learn from them.

 

[milplt]

Frog_flyer, bulls--t on them for not wanting to fly, or on me for lying? Specify please.

Albie, don't forget that by the time they get to you, they have been through many levels of screening. I train those that go to you, and I know that the ones we see are not representative of the entire sample. I also instructed T-34's at Whiting, and the overall attitude is poor among our new ascessions (sp?). I had an Ensign tell me on Fam 6 that he didn't want any of my techniques, he had his own. I also had an AF Lt complain on a critique that he didn't like how I grilled him for 45 minutes during the brief as if I was looking for a knowledge deficiency, then when I found it grilled him for another 15 on that topic. Also, my flight evaluation didn't accurately reflect his actual flight. Mind you, this was all on a Safe of Solo checkride and I was the evaluator. There was a USCG student who wouldn't fly with his instructor because the weather stripping between the wing and fuselage was coming loose. Mx signed off on it and the IP agreed, and the SP said no - and no one looked twice. Another USCG student refused to fly solo because she was uncomfortable with the winds - and they were well within solo limitations. Another student was attrited from either VT-6 or VT-2 twice (being kicked back by the commodore twice), then went to the other of the 2 squadrons (either 2 or 6) and was attrited and sent finally to VT-3 and was attrited. A student pilot attrited by ALL 3 fixed-wing squadrons on the base and still the commodore is not removing him from the program. I had an on-wing finish T-34's with a NSS of 16 (no kidding took a full twice the number of front seat sorties as the syllabus allowed to make it to solo). Another student told me I could have his ground ops be fast, or correct, but not both. This is the avg.

Caveman, it is bad enough that around 2001, NAMI psychologists (sp?) at KNPA did a study to see if this generation was in fact different than that of the past. They determined that it was, and it had to with always receiving instant gratification and not having to work for anything from today's parents (an oversimplification - but the results were along those lines). Combine no built-in work ethic with no incentive (or fear that we all felt back in the day) and you get what you get.

My point is that I see it as an institutional problem - and one-on-one get togethers won't fix it. Cadets and Lt's/Ensigns don't feel the threat of elimination, push-ups aren't allowed in AFROTC or at the Academy, no one enforces any of the old discipline building exercises because we aren't allowed to anymore (Albie, seen any backpack toting LT's lately?). The mishap rate is up among all of the services, and they are not combat losses (although they are combat-related in some instances and the ability to hide your low skill level by cancelling the mission is not an option at times).

Motivation is not rewarded nor demanded, is it BoilerUp?. I think we can all agree that some of the most difficult training in the AF (outside of flying) is the combat rescue officer course. It was reported at Moody that anyone who attrites this program is eliminated from the AF.. That's right, put your neck on the line, fail, and you are out. Meanwhile, we will keep that non-motivated LT who didn't step up for anything and became a finance officer (yes, we need finance officers - so put the motivated go-getter LT who didn't pass the CRO course in that job - boot the slug out instead for being at the bottom of the pile). Same as the old T-38/T-1 decision - step up and go T-38's and maybe get washed out, or go T-1's and be destined for wings - no reward for putting it on the line. (By the way - I am also of the thought process that if you aren't willing to step up to the T-38 despite the increased risks, we don't want you in the pointy-nose world). DG programs are going away. The non-rated AF promotion rate is higher than the rated promotion rate - who goes to combat, again. Intel is getting posted on every website imaginable - with pictures and video, of course. Supposed misreps are even making it to individual public websites with callsigns, tactics, and all. And if anyone raises the BS flag on the appropriateness of the posting, it is he who gets flamed vs. the one with no sense of OPSEC/COMSEC.

I just feel that we are on a downhill slide, and it is ocurring on our watch and we are just watching as it happens. It is up to us "old craniums" to set and enforce the standard - because I agree with Albie. If no ones teaches them, they won't know - but there is no across-the-board teaching go on. Our predecessors trained us well, and we are dropping the ball with those following us.

 

[Weasel Keeper]

Wow! Next time you run into a situation where you can't get a volunteer for a backseat ride...ask a Crew Chief! We MIGHT be lucky enough in an entire career to get an incentive ride in one of our beloved machines...I'm still waiting for my chance.

 

[Caveman]

milplt,

I don't doubt that this generation is different from the last one. Of course it is and we were different from the generation before us and they were different from the one before them. That's the way it's always been. They'll be fine as long as we keep teaching them what we learned. They will learn and make their own mistakes. They aren't less than us, just different.

Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" thought all us boomers were worthless too, but we turned out all right. I'll admit they were a tough act to follow, but we didn't totally screw things up. Generation Y or X or whatever they're called these days will eventually pick up where we left off and take care of things until the next worthless bunch comes along.

Look at the young warriors in the fight right now. I'm blown away by their youth, professionalism, courage and devotion to duty. We'll be fine as long as we keep producing young men and women like that.

 

[milplt]

I agree, I think the potential of failure is not with those coming in, it is in the fact that we may not be training them right as a whole - that's where I think we need to step up - and I wanted to see if this was a common thought.

In the old days, if you were an Eagle driver, you were an Eagle driver. Now, if you want to opt out of the "can't say this word or that word" game - no problem. Not willing to hang with the bro's after hours - whether a partaker of spirits or not - your choice. If you just want to fly the airplane and not live the life - have at it. Of course, those that preceeded us knew that morale and unit cohesion were built with such practices - now we don't care. And, of course that had nothing to do with the fact that when I took off at night heavyweight with 3 bags, shredded a 4th stage compressor blade and from the indications inside couldn't tell which motor was the one spitting flames out of the back - my wingman wouldn't rejoin close enough so he could see which motor was burning for fear of his safety. But we had the unit cohesion such that I could trust him to poke his nose into a fight to save me?

Any heavy driver can tell you of at least one person who did not warrant upgrade to aircraft commander - the Sq leadership would never let them take a jet around the world on their own. But everyone is "owed" an upgrade - so they went to the school, got the stamp, then were promptly sent to a UPT base to be an instructor of that newest generation. And nothing against FAIP's, but 50% or more of T-6/T-37 IP's being FAIP's is wrong. You have no operational experience, and no matter how good of an instructor you are, you can't honestly tell me that you wouldn't be an even better instructor after 1 or 2 operational tours. Do your IP tour, but do it after seeing why we do what we do - I did mine after 3 operational tours. You are training USAF pilots, not T-37 pilots.

Our future combat capability is affected by how we grow them. Ask any air refueling receiver pilot (as opposed to the tanker pilot) who has the better reputation - the AD guys or the ANG guys that converted from fighters in the last few years. I have - The ANG guys win hands down. Of course they take a distinct interest in selecting and training their pilots correctly and exactly how they want them - they will be around for a while. In the AD unit, they son't polish their LT's quite as well. Also, I don't think the ANG units write their gradesheets for the lawyers - if you are an AETC IP, you know what I mean.

Anyway, our senior leadership is failing us with how they man our ROTC dets, how they man our UPT bases, how they tie our hands in building up our newest generation, etc - basically every task involved with molding our newest officers. I step up to the plate when I see the need - but when I stated to our Sq leadership that I wanted to address the ROTC group as a whole, I was told that I was wasting my time. My exact quote was "if I can keep one of them from becoming a SNAP, it will be worth it" - still no go.

If you are seeing these things, also - it isn't just you. It is more widespread than we think. My hope is that the majority of us "middle management" see ourselves as the last line of defense and we start to live up to our responsibility. When someone says they want to address the SNACadets, the rest of us don't say how it's a waste of time. When some obviously young LT posts borderline OPSEC/COMSEC material, among others as that F-16 RTU student did on that other website about his detailed LFE experiences, someone speaks up and the rest of us back him up vs. defending his right to post such material. When somone wants to be fly an F-15, but not be an Eagle driver - we explain to them the importance of mutual support and how it is developed. When we sit on the TRB and the Ops O or CC says that we need to upgrade that guy when we know that he/she has not earned that upgrade by developing their flying skills - we not roll over so easy and we unite with our peers to bring sanity into the upgrade selection process. And when we see that Major who has 11 Q-3's in his FEF (don't worry, I've seen it), we ask the CC who isit that is going to accept the responsibility and consider an FEB vs. sending him to the schoolhouse for his IP upgrade (which he did not pass - of course).

 

[HarryShadow]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't expect a bunch of kids to show up to my squadron, not provide them with any structure, and expect them be productive and make the most of it!!! And much to the dismay of milplt, I guess these kids just don't want anything to do with the fighter community...sorry for the downer. Granted, it sounds like they're still growing up, but so is the O-6 in my wing that got a DUI last year. Go figure! I had the drive to fly since the day I took a header out of the womb. If they don't have it, all the better...keep them out of the cockpit!!!

The AF always needs good finance officers...just got another voucher kicked back for no apparant reason whatsoever...drag!

 

[Mud Eagle]

i have to call BS on them not wanting to fly......

I can second the story as I observed this personally at Moody within the last few weeks.

The guy I flew in the back of the '38 almost threw up, then told me at the end of the debrief that he no longer wanted to be a pilot because it seemed like "too much work".

 

[Mud Eagle]

Wow! Next time you run into a situation where you can't get a volunteer for a backseat ride...ask a Crew Chief! We MIGHT be lucky enough in an entire career to get an incentive ride in one of our beloved machines...I'm still waiting for my chance.

Work at an AT-38 base. There are open cockpits every day the go un-filled.

 

[ktulu34535]

To the uninitiated a fighter squadron could be intimidating. It wasn't till the first roll call at IFF that I understood what it was all about, probably because this wasn't a typical roll call being that it was a reunion for the squadron with a bunch of crusty old vets with a bunch of kick ass stories.

Fate dealt its blows, and I'm not flying the Hawg, but now I feel as though I can bring a little bit of what I learned to my current bretheren. I won't comment on how that is going but I will put it this way, I saw a comment at baseops.net, about knowing your a SNAP if you drink powerade and vodka. The dude I told this joke to responded with "I drank that last night."

ARGHHHHH

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If it makes ya feel any better, we see the same crap in the Navy when midshipmen get sent to us in the summer. The majority of these kids would rather sleep, eat and watch movies in the wardroom. Most of them could care less about actaully learning anything let alone standing a watch....and the sad thing is that most of the ships they go to are too busy to worry about baby sitting so the kids leave at the end of their 'cruise' without learning a dang thing.

The cold war was great...lots of cash to burn and a known enemy.....

 

[tomgoodman]

Curmudgeon gap

You guys sound like a bunch of old curmudgeons.

CURMUDGEONS?? Why, this generation of curmudgeons ain't near as cranky as curmudgeons back in my day! Yes, Sir, we had REAL curmudgeons, not like these soft, wimpy curmudgeons you see these days! I tell ya, they were so curmudgeonly they kicked their OWN butts! What's the service comin' to?

 

[JungleJett]

A lot of what you see is likely a failure of AFROTC leadership. How many fighter guys are working in dets right now? How many aquisition officers? The fact is these guys don't know what to expect because I doubt they've had a lot of exposure to this type of stuff. How do you know how to BE a warrior if you don't have any to learn from? The AFROTC cadre is not known for a lot of carnivorous types--it tends to attract the herbivores out of the force. There are exceptions, I know...but honestly--how many squadron commanders or OGs have you met that did a 2-3 year AFROTC stint in their career?

So you have to be a fighter guy to be considered a "warrior" and therefore are the only types that can pass on "real" knowledge?

I beg to differ. I would agree that those officers working in AFROTC should come from an operational background but not everyone wants to be a fighter pilot, attack pilot...or a any type of pilot for that matter. Some just want to be Air Force Officers! I know it is hard to believe for a fighter pilot, but not everyone wants to be a pilot. Some want to be in the Space Command, JAG, Doctors, and even a Chaplain! It does not make them less of an officer. I have known many pilots from all sorts of airframes and many "non-flyers" and I have seen a mix of quality in both. Simply being a pilot does not make one a good officer. In fact, one of the most disgusting displays of arrogance and poor showings as an officer was from an O-6 F-15 (AD) pilot in the desert. The guy was a total tool. He ripped into our CMSGT for driving on a gravel road between tent rows delivering water to all the tents. (He could have had someone else do it but chose to do it himself.) Otherwise, it was a pretty good drive/walk from the main road with all that water. This O-6 was livid that one of his lame ass orders had been violated by no less than a CMSGT! He just kept on going on and on about it. Then turns around, walks 25 paces and gets in his airconditioned car that is parked on the EXACT SAME ROAD that the CMSGT was parked on!!!! And it was driven by some pimple faced kid who witnessed this turds explosion. Nice display of professionalism and courtesy towards a senior NCO. This was in front of about 20 plus people, officers and enlisted alike. We were dumbfounded. He was the Wing commander of a base that had a handful of F-15's and over 40 C-130's. Thank God they left right after the war started and went home so we could get back to business of flying and making life somewhat bearible in that $hithole.

As far as putting a "warrior" in the position, how about some ALO, PJ or Special Tactics dude? Those guys are warriors if we are putting labels on people based on what they did. How about putting just a GREAT officer in these positions? These kids are learning to be officers (not pilots) and don't need to continously hear the "there I was" stories. They need to be taught leadership, repsect for others (to include the enlisted force which is lacking in some), honor, tradition, the USAF mission and about its future as a force.

 

[JungleJett]

Wow! Next time you run into a situation where you can't get a volunteer for a backseat ride...ask a Crew Chief! We MIGHT be lucky enough in an entire career to get an incentive ride in one of our beloved machines...I'm still waiting for my chance.

You just get inline behind Tom Cruise and some NASCAR driver and a million other folks that are "deserving" of a ride. You keep your ass on the ramp and fix the damn things!





...I agree with you 100%

 

[Deuce130]

So you have to be a fighter guy to be considered a "warrior" and therefore are the only types that can pass on "real" knowledge?

I beg to differ. I would agree that those officers working in AFROTC should come from an operational background but not everyone wants to be a fighter pilot, attack pilot...or a any type of pilot for that matter. Some just want to be Air Force Officers! I know it is hard to believe for a fighter pilot, but not everyone wants to be a pilot. Some want to be in the Space Command, JAG, Doctors, and even a Chaplain! It does not make them less of an officer. I have known many pilots from all sorts of airframes and many "non-flyers" and I have seen a mix of quality in both. Simply being a pilot does not make one a good officer. In fact, one of the most disgusting displays of arrogance and poor showings as an officer was from an O-6 F-15 (AD) pilot in the desert. The guy was a total tool. He ripped into our CMSGT for driving on a gravel road between tent rows delivering water to all the tents. (He could have had someone else do it but chose to do it himself.) Otherwise, it was a pretty good drive/walk from the main road with all that water. This O-6 was livid that one of his lame ass orders had been violated by no less than a CMSGT! He just kept on going on and on about it. Then turns around, walks 25 paces and gets in his airconditioned car that is parked on the EXACT SAME ROAD that the CMSGT was parked on!!!! And it was driven by some pimple faced kid who witnessed this turds explosion. Nice display of professionalism and courtesy towards a senior NCO. This was in front of about 20 plus people, officers and enlisted alike. We were dumbfounded. He was the Wing commander of a base that had a handful of F-15's and over 40 C-130's. Thank God they left right after the war started and went home so we could get back to business of flying and making life somewhat bearible in that $hithole.

As far as putting a "warrior" in the position, how about some ALO, PJ or Special Tactics dude? Those guys are warriors if we are putting labels on people based on what they did. How about putting just a GREAT officer in these positions? These kids are learning to be officers (not pilots) and don't need to continously hear the "there I was" stories. They need to be taught leadership, repsect for others (to include the enlisted force which is lacking in some), honor, tradition, the USAF mission and about its future as a force.

Relax, he didn't say you had to be a fighter guy to be a warrior. There are several different "front-line" occupations in the AF, some of which you mentioned in your post. The point was that you don't always get the warrior perspective from learning and watching certain types of officers (like finance, medical, JAG, etc) during your stint as a cadet or OCS candidate. We need more of these "front-line" occupations such as pilots, navigators, special tactics, security forces, wrench-benders, etc to mentor these young guys while they are developing into young officers and officer candidates. And yes, Jungle, that includes being mentored by top-notch enlisted folks - preferably from aviation, security, or maintenance career fields. I've seen E-4 and 5 loadmaster and FEs who outshine E-7's and E-8's who spent their entire careers sitting at a desk and leading from the rear. Nothing pisses me off more than being lectured overseas by a SMSgt or CMSgt who happens to be "in-charge" but never left an air-conditioned office in their entire career. As for the a**hole WG/CC, well, a**holes aren't limited to the fighter community. This guy just happened to be an a**hole who flew F-15s. I've seen some who happened to fly -130s. Don't let it get you down. I could tell you stories from the current leadership at Hurlburt that would make you throw up.