New FAA rules....tidbits

airlinepilot

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I had a long conversation with a member that is helping write the new FAA rules for duty, flying time etc. He said that what they are drafting is going to happen and very quickly. He said they have already heard from large numbers in Congress who are very unhappy about the Cologan accident! They want change and not tired pilots. Here is some of the things he shared with me:

1. Commuters don't have anything to worry about. They know they cannot track where people live or commute from.

2. Duty day will most likely be 12 hours. No increase from the scheduled max of 8 hrs flying time (although he said ALPA tried to get it raised to 9 hrs).

3. Like our 30/7 or 100/30 hour rule (which will probably not change) there will also be a max duty time in a 7 and 30 day period.

4. Your rest period will allow you approx 8 hours at the hotel. Your rest period will not start until you arrive at your hotel. Your duty period will be when you lobby at the hotel. Not when you arrive at the gate.

5. The 9 hr rest period will be gone. Most likely around 10 hour rest period.

6. Duty periods that start late (interfere with your normal circadian rhythm) will be more restrictive than the normal duty period.

7. Reserve blocks will probably be 12 hours. However, reserve blocks late at night might be shorter in concert with the attempt to make shorter duty periods when the duty starts later in the day.

8. Stand-up overnights will most likely be a thing of the past. The later a duty period starts, the sooner it must end.

9. They have also addressed ASAP reports and under the new laws companies could not take any disciplinary action against crews that submit the reports.

10. There is also a group addressing the Flight Attendants. You can expect their duty rules to closely mirror those of the pilots.


The bottom line is they have gathered alot of data concerning flying long days, multiple stops and schedules that interfere with your bodies circadian rhythm. He also said that they expect to finish work in the next 30 to 60 days and that the airlines will most likely have 180 days to comply.
 

TWA Dude

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This is great news but what about the poop-storm the ATA will raise? Implementation of these rules would require enormous scheduling changes which means canceled flights. I just don't see it happening except under a multi-year phase-in.
 

Green Banana

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Not going to happen. All this will be looked at, then the ATA will lobby. They will say that these rule changes will cause airlines to go bankrupt. There is NO WAY they could hire and train enough pilots to comply in two years, much less 180 days.
 

brokeflyer

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yeah until us pilots start greasing congress like the azz hole management does with all the stolen money they rape froma company, it will never change.

It'll be considered "acceptable losses" to have a few accidents.....the profit will outweight the safety issues.

Although safety will be their number one concern, as long as it dont interfere with profits.
 

JoeMerchant

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....and yet the Colgan crew would still be legal under these new rules.
 

Raoul Duke

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I have heard the opposite on commutting, the new regs are aiming at requiring pilots to be in base 8 hours prior to trip
 

airlinepilot

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I think it is going to happen. He said ATA is represented in the meeting and although they have tried to do somethings they themselves have been told my members of congress that things are going to change because "we don't want anymore tired pilots flying airplanes". The flavor of the meetings is that everyone knows we need change. The FAA has spent alot of money collecting data (medical, NTSB, NASA, etc) and a fight by ATA is not going to be recieved well in Congress. Most of the guys in Congress never realized how long our hours can be, etc. Bottom line is the new FAA chief has said he has zero interest in every moving up the political chain and only wants to do what is right. Between the marching orders in Congress and the FAA Chief.....I think ATA is not going to be able to win this one.....it's long overdue.
 

airlinepilot

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Not what he said

I have heard the opposite on commutting, the new regs are aiming at requiring pilots to be in base 8 hours prior to trip

Commutting was my first question to him. He flatly said it was discussed but they know there is absolutely no way to control or monitor it. He said no rules on commuting.
 

densoo

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Because of the fast track nature of this major change, the FAA is essentially taking the CAA reg and adopting 95% of it. Here is the pdf link for their current reg: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF

Some things I noted:

- 10 hours behind the hotel door
- a simple chart shows the duty day (section B, p. 9)
- time on duty is what is counted, not just flight time per day
-- i.e., you could fly an LAX turn from ORD as long you don't exceed duty day
-- the more legs you fly, the shorter the duty day
- reserve rest is equal to preceeding time on duty, including oncall time
- a "day off" is 34 hours which has to include two nights
- flight time limits are a 28-day, quarterly, yearly, lookback
- shorter term limits are based on duty time, not flight time; average of xx hours on duty (not just flying) on a x-day lookback
 

EMB_driver2002

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Anyone know if the re-work in the FT DT rules is just going to be Domestic 121 or are they going to tackle international and supplemental 121 too?
 

Green Banana

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yeah until us pilots start greasing congress like the azz hole management does with all the stolen money they rape froma company, it will never change.
ALPA pilots garner powerful influence with the nations' political community through a powerful political action committee, called ALPA-PAC, which helps elect pro-pilot members of Congress who support the union's legislative agenda. ALPA-PAC has raised nearly $2 million over the past two years, and those resources have backed nearly 320 pilot-friendly candidates in the House and Senate from both sides of the aisle.

HELP BACK THE PAC!
 

contrail67

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I had a long conversation with a member that is helping write the new FAA rules for duty, flying time etc. He said that what they are drafting is going to happen and very quickly. He said they have already heard from large numbers in Congress who are very unhappy about the Cologan accident! They want change and not tired pilots. Here is some of the things he shared with me:

1. Commuters don't have anything to worry about. They know they cannot track where people live or commute from.

2. Duty day will most likely be 12 hours. No increase from the scheduled max of 8 hrs flying time (although he said ALPA tried to get it raised to 9 hrs).

3. Like our 30/7 or 100/30 hour rule (which will probably not change) there will also be a max duty time in a 7 and 30 day period.

4. Your rest period will allow you approx 8 hours at the hotel. Your rest period will not start until you arrive at your hotel. Your duty period will be when you lobby at the hotel. Not when you arrive at the gate.

5. The 9 hr rest period will be gone. Most likely around 10 hour rest period.

6. Duty periods that start late (interfere with your normal circadian rhythm) will be more restrictive than the normal duty period.

7. Reserve blocks will probably be 12 hours. However, reserve blocks late at night might be shorter in concert with the attempt to make shorter duty periods when the duty starts later in the day.

8. Stand-up overnights will most likely be a thing of the past. The later a duty period starts, the sooner it must end.

9. They have also addressed ASAP reports and under the new laws companies could not take any disciplinary action against crews that submit the reports.

10. There is also a group addressing the Flight Attendants. You can expect their duty rules to closely mirror those of the pilots.


The bottom line is they have gathered alot of data concerning flying long days, multiple stops and schedules that interfere with your bodies circadian rhythm. He also said that they expect to finish work in the next 30 to 60 days and that the airlines will most likely have 180 days to comply.

So with all of that about how many pilots will they end up short....because of the new rules..
 

njcapt

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GogglesPisano

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enough
Looks like the days of regional sweatshops are over.
 

contrail67

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Not sure how much negotiating will happen if they are rules....I know when they started putting reserves as duty day times..instead of 24 hours a day...it cause quite a bit of hiring.
 

Benjamin Dover

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Commutting was my first question to him. He flatly said it was discussed but they know there is absolutely no way to control or monitor it. He said no rules on commuting.
Glad about this. I commute and I am way more rested than some of the "local" pilots I fly with who drive 2 hours or more or do various things before driving to work like farming, fishing, golf, home imrovement, kid duty with triplets, trying to make a kid duty with blue pill assist, etc. My fairly short flight with a nap and then chill in the lounge for an hour or so, I know I'm feeling better than some of those non-commuters.
 

RJLoser

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Not going to happen. Colgan will be forgot and this will boil down to money. Trust me, I'd love to be wrong.
 

Dude

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To echo what Joe said........

The issue has nothing to do with rest and fatigue. Experience and aptitude at the controls is the issue. I flew stand-ups exclusively for years in the mountains and in $hitty weather.......no stalls, and no crashes. The elephant in the room is the fact that there are some folks who shouldn't be at the controls of a paddle-boat, much less an airplane.

Until the standard is raised at every airline....this problem will exist and craches will continue. I remember when you had to have 3000-4000 hours just to fly a Metro, let alone a 50K+ lb. aircraft. Simple solution; some should, and some shouldn't. Experience isn't the only element in question. There are plenty of 10K+ hour pilots that are terrible and pull it off only because they have company in the cockpit.

Fatigue, my hiney. I do my best landings when I am half asleep....forgetting stuff:)
 

waveflyer

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there are a lot of long term affects with fatigue-- ask the Mesa crew that fell asleep- that captain had so many health defects due to this it was ridiculous-- the Apnea alone probably meant he hadn't had a full nights sleep in years.

Dude- i agree with you completely-- the reason law school and the Bar is so hard is b/c the lawyer industry makes it that way- Has 2 affects- 1-makes sure lawyers are competent people which creates and keeps demand for the product. 2- lawyers are less likely to accept substandard wages after going through the process.

Doctors- same thing.

Pilots in Europe- same thing. We must raise the standards- academic and performance. Combine the JAA and FAA processes. If you can't cut it- get another career.

But- Dude- Fatigue is also an important issue. and i'm glad it's getting addressed. There's a whole lot of things we can do on a day by day basis that are not good for us long term.
 
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miaboeingcapt

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Anyone know if the re-work in the FT DT rules is just going to be Domestic 121 or are they going to tackle international and supplemental 121 too?
As a former 121 supplemental pilot, the new rules should be exactly the same for every 121 carrier! There should not be any difference.
 
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